Free Will?

[McCree79]

Calvin "foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen..." (Calvin, Institutes, III: xxiii, 6.)

Can God's sovereign will be overrode or violated?

 

[Iconoclast]

here you go;

6. Impiety starts another objection, which, however, seeks not so much to criminate God as to excuse the sinner; though he who is condemned by God as a sinner cannot ultimately be acquitted without impugning the judge. This, then is the scoffing language which profane tongues employ.


Why should God blame men for things the necessity of which he has imposed by his own predestination? What
could they do? Could they struggle with his decrees? It were in vain for them to do it, since they could not possibly succeed. It is not
just, therefore, to punish them for things the principal cause of which is in the predestination of God. Here I will abstain from a
defense to which ecclesiastical writers usually recur, that there is nothing in the prescience of God to prevent him from regarding; man
as a sinner, since the evils which he foresees are man's, not his.

This would not stop the caviler, who would still insist that God might, if he had pleased, have prevented the evils which he foresaw,
and not having done so, must with determinate counsel have created man for the very purpose of so acting on the earth. But if by the
providence of God man was created on the condition of afterwards doing whatever he does, then that which he cannot escape, and which he is constrained by the will of God to do, cannot be charged upon him as a crime. Let us, therefore, see what is the proper method ofsolving the difficulty. First, all must admit what Solomon says,
"The Lord has made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil," (Prov. 16: 4.) Now, since the arrangement of all
things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in
such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. If
any one alleges that no necessity is laid upon them by the providence of God, but rather that they are created by him in that
condition, because he foresaw their future depravity, he says something, but does not say enough. Ancient writers, indeed,
occasionally employ this solution, though with some degree of hesitation. The Schoolmen, again, rest in it as if it could not be
gainsaid. I, for my part, am willing to admit, that mere prescience lays no necessity on the creatures; though some do not assent to
this, but hold that it is itself the cause of things. But Valla, though otherwise not greatly skilled in sacred matters, seems to me
to have taken a shrewder and more acute view, when he shows that the dispute is superfluous since life and death are acts of the divine will rather than of prescience.
If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there
might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all
events take place by his sovereign appointment.

 

[McCree79]

[emoji23] You will see partial quotes and out of context quotes by those void of understanding;

from the 1689 conf ;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

see for yourself;

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/calvin/bk3ch23.html

You miss read him. He once again states God is not a the author of sin

 

[Reformed]

The OP is full of hot air.

 

[McCree79]

here you go;

He says he will avoid the defense of "evils are of man not God"... He does that not because he doesn't believe that, but because he says the cavalier will just argue....


Does God not create the wicked? Does he not justify his children and make them righteous?

Does God create vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath? What right does the mold have to say to the molder? All for his glory regardless.

Read Calvins work on Original sin. There he states clearly God is not the author of sin.

 

[tj harris]

The OP is full of hot air.

Why do you believe this you have said about me?
Please explain in detail?

 

[Alcott]

Free Will?
Yeah, I've been thinking about filing a will. Do you know of a lawyer who does that service for free?

 

[McCree79]

"The blame of our ruin rests with our own carnality, not with God, its only cause being our dengeneracy from our original condition. And let no man clamor that God might have provided better for our safety by preventing Adam's fall. ....Meanwhile let us remember that our ruin is attributable to our own depravity, that we may not insinuate a charge against God himself." -Calvin Book 2 Ch1. Section 10. This whole section is addressing those who blame there sin on God. Calvin argues against what you accuse him of.

 

[InTheLight]

Pilate was fully responsible for his own action. Jesus even told him he was. Just because Christ knew what the decision would be, does not mean that he was forced before the foundation of the world to make that decision. God is omniscient. He knows what will happen. But he doesn't force it to happen.

Acts 4:27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

 

[McCree79]

Calvin wasn't teaching anything similar to "allowing sin." Even the non-Cals" will believe that a sovereign God allows sin, as He did in the Book of Job.
Calvin decreed that God orchestrates all things and that includes sinful acts.
There is a big difference.

Pilate was fully responsible for his own action. Jesus even told him he was. Just because Christ knew what the decision would be, does not mean that he was forced before the foundation of the world to make that decision. God is omniscient. He knows what will happen. But he doesn't force it to happen.

Going back to Pilate. I agree 100% Pilate acted on his own will. With that said, he was going up against a prophecy of God. The Sovereign will of God. Pilate being of the flesh and incapable of doing nothing good for God. Being afraid for himself due to the Mob, only had one choice. The choice of the flesh, the sinful choice. He operated with free will to chose the only choice he had. To crucify Christ. Pilate, by freewill, could have never had freed Jesus. To do so would have ascended his will above God's sovereignty. Making him more powerful than God.

 

[The American Dream]

The OP is full of hot air.

I agree totally. Post that makes the most sense. Man's free will is bounded by our fallen state. God's sovereignty is absolute. Just because it appears to the ad nauseum free will-sovereignty debaters there is a contradiction does not make it so. It makes no difference to God whether you understand it or not. The fact is God operates by certain principles, some known to man, some unknown. Sovereignty and the limited free will of man work in perfect harmony. God is the Creator, He make the rules. BB posters do not.

 

[Van]

How many times is this argument going to be made? Lets try yet again:
1) God is sovereign, that means He either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Thus He does not predestine everything, and therefore is not the author of sin. (Yes I know Calvinism teaches God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, yet somehow mysteriously, is not the author of sin. In the real world, that is cognitive dissonance.)

2) No ones will is free to do anything, because if God does not allow it, it will not occur. Thus we are free to make decisions within the purview God allows. If some action is not allowed, say flying by flapping our arms, it will not happen. Thus, God says we make plans but God directs our feet.

 

[DHK]

Going back to Pilate. I agree 100% Pilate acted on his own will. With that said, he was going up against a prophecy of God. The Sovereign will of God. Pilate being of the flesh and incapable of doing nothing good for God. Being afraid for himself due to the Mob, only had one choice. The choice of the flesh, the sinful choice. He operated with free will to chose the only choice he had. To crucify Christ. Pilate, by freewill, could have never had freed Jesus. To do so would have ascended his will above God's sovereignty. Making him more powerful than God.

You pit one attribute of God against another actually making God weaker than He really is. All of His attributes work together and none is greater than any other. Sovereignty does not over-rule omniscience for example. Nor does it over-rule omnipotence. You are tying God's hands and putting Him into a box, telling God what He can and cannot do according to your puny reasoning.

What does the Word say about that?
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Do you give your counsel to God at this point?

Or do you agree that, when God said:
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--he meant it.

Is it possible that God gave free will to Pilate, even though it was written in the Scriptures, knowing full well ahead of time (for He is omniscient) which way Pilate would choose, and still not violate his sovereignty? He is God. He is omnipotent. If you say no to the above question, that God cannot do those things, then you are limiting the power of God. If man cannot have a free will within the boundaries of God's sovereignty (according to you and Calvin) then you are limiting the power of God; taking away his omnipotence, and God is not God at all.

 

[McCree79]

You pit one attribute of God against another actually making God weaker than He really is. All of His attributes work together and none is greater than any other. Sovereignty does not over-rule omniscience for example. Nor does it over-rule omnipotence. You are tying God's hands and putting Him into a box, telling God what He can and cannot do according to your puny reasoning.

What does the Word say about that?
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Do you give your counsel to God at this point?

Or do you agree that, when God said:
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--he meant it.

Is it possible that God gave free will to Pilate, even though it was written in the Scriptures, knowing full well ahead of time (for He is omniscient) which way Pilate would choose, and still not violate his sovereignty? He is God. He is omnipotent. If you say no to the above question, that God cannot do those things, then you are limiting the power of God. If man cannot have a free will within the boundaries of God's sovereignty (according to you and Calvin) then you are limiting the power of God; taking away his omnipotence, and God is not God at all.

Nice try, but you are distorting the debate. I have always stated that are free will must operate within the boundaries of God's sovereignty. So has Calvin. You just changed sides of the debate. Sovereignty of God is absolute. How you can claim that if he is too sovereign....that if it out ways his omniscience..... He is no longer God makes zero sense. His Sovereignty is in regard to his will, his rule, his supremacy. Nothing will over rule that. God's sovereignty answers to nothing. Especially Pilate's will. So now you claim is that God seen it in his omniscience that his plan would work. He got lucky then???? You still allow room for a human being to over throw Gods plan. Pilate had no free will to do anything good for God. He was of the flesh, served the flesh. Nor one person is good(without Christ imputed righteousness). Pilate had not choice but to do his will, the will of the flesh. God didn't control his will. Pilate was a slave to his sinful nature. Incapable for doing anything but choose death for Christ.

 

[McCree79]

You pit one attribute of God against another actually making God weaker than He really is. All of His attributes work together and none is greater than any other. Sovereignty does not over-rule omniscience for example. Nor does it over-rule omnipotence. You are tying God's hands and putting Him into a box, telling God what He can and cannot do according to your puny reasoning.

What does the Word say about that?
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

Do you give your counsel to God at this point?

Or do you agree that, when God said:
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--he meant it.

Is it possible that God gave free will to Pilate, even though it was written in the Scriptures, knowing full well ahead of time (for He is omniscient) which way Pilate would choose, and still not violate his sovereignty? He is God. He is omnipotent. If you say no to the above question, that God cannot do those things, then you are limiting the power of God. If man cannot have a free will within the boundaries of God's sovereignty (according to you and Calvin) then you are limiting the power of God; taking away his omnipotence, and God is not God at all.

...and your claim that if God didn't give Pilate free will, the ability to choose good and let Christ live, then he is weak and not God is a backwards statement. If he didn't give Pilate the power to override his(God's) own sovereignty, then he is not God. You basically just said if God doesn't make his creature as powerful as him or powerful he is not God. Makes now since. Humans screw everything up. He does not leave the salvation of his children in the hands of a humans free will. Our will always bends to God's

 

[McCree79]

...and to say sovereignty doesn't over rule something.... You miss the meaning of sovereign.

 

[McCree79]

His omniscience and omnipotence and attributes that add to his sovereignty. Sovereign is what he is. Omniscience is an ability.

 

[McCree79]

I do enjoy the debate guys....

"Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another."

 

[DHK]

Pilate had not choice but to do his will, the will of the flesh. God didn't control his will. Pilate was a slave to his sinful nature. Incapable for doing anything but choose death for Christ.

Your view disagrees with both the Scriptures and with Jesus:

John 19:9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Pilate speaks of his own power.
Jesus tells him that the power he does have was given to him.
However, he also tells him that the one that is most responsible is Judas. It was Judas that delivered Jesus to Pilate. He did so of his own free will, and of Pilate's free will he was still able to release him. That power God had given him. He couldn't claim it for himself.

 

[McCree79]

Your view disagrees with both the Scriptures and with Jesus:

John 19:9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Pilate speaks of his own power.
Jesus tells him that the power he does have was given to him.
However, he also tells him that the one that is most responsible is Judas. It was Judas that delivered Jesus to Pilate. He did so of his own free will, and of Pilate's free will he was still able to release him. That power God had given him. He couldn't claim it for himself.

Pilate's position had the legal power. The crucifixion was going to happen. Pilate had no control. Gods will will trump all