Pilate's positions had the power, but he lacked the will power to supersede Gods plan
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Free Will?
- Thread starter tj harris
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I should clarify.....Pilate was not compelled by God to choice that. His sinful nature.....made him sin....it was always going to make him chose the sin. When in the flesh....we are always enemies of God.
Scripture is not contradicted. Pilate's power office was stated. Not his ability to do right by God
convicted1
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The will is lock-step with the nature. Within that nature, the will freely moves...
Absolutely. Well said
convicted1
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All you have to do is witness nature at work. Lions eat meat and not grass. Deer eat greens and not meat. Why? It's contrary to their nature to do so.
Apple trees produce apples, peach trees bring forth peaches, pear trees pears, &c.
Jesus used trees as a prime example. Trees produce what's inside of them. Unless someone's will is changed, they won't change. Only God can make their nature change...
Limited free will is taught in the scripture:
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
HankD
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
HankD
convicted1
Guest
People act freely within their nature. But the will is limited to the confines of nature..
Nehemiah 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
Nehemiah 2:4 Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven.
Nehemiah 2:6 And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.
This wicked king did good. He actually sent Nehemiah to Jerusalem to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, and gave him the materials to do so:
Nehemiah 2:8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
This is a choice that the king made in answer to the request of Nehemiah.
No the wicked King did not do good. Nehemiah was doing God's will....his redemptive purpose. Nehemiah did good. The King did not do this for God, Nehemiah did. Nehemiah had full use of his liberated free will. The King was only serving himself and his earthly Kingdom. The fact that the King's selfish will.... Will in bondage to sin....was used for God's purpose is another example of our wills unable to derail God's purpose and Sovereign will. Our will always bends to God's when they meet.
I think you guys are close to saying the same thing. Ananias did have free will. But it was free will that was a slave to his sinful nature. He was struck down because he was unable to give an offering out of love. Instead he gave an offering of deceit. He had the right to keep some of the money. It was his heart...a heart filled on with his sinful nature that was his downfall. Sinful people can do outward "good acts" for God. But they have no love for him, so their fruit is meaningless. It is done for there own selfish motivations.
convicted1
Guest
Howso?
Look, sinning is a choice and I don't deny that. But none of us, even after salvation, has the ability not to sin. It's infused within our flesh, seeps through our pores. The soul has been made 'white as snow', but the flesh is still corrupted in sin. The flesh still has desires to please the flesh, but the soul wants to please God. When the flesh raises up(sins), the soul, by the working of the Spirit, brings the flesh back under subjection.
--And this I do because of the good news, that a fellow-partaker of it I may become; have ye not known that those running in a race, all indeed run, but one doth receive the prize? so run ye, that ye may obtain; and every one who is striving, is in all things temperate; these, indeed, then, that a corruptible crown they may receive, but we an incorruptible; I, therefore, thus run, not as uncertainly, thus I fight, as not beating air; but I chastise my body, and bring [it] into **servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved.(1 Cor. 9:23-27 YLT)
**servitude is subjection in the KJV
I don't know if it is that close McCree, considering the word choices, the passage clearly indicates that it was possible for Ananias to do the right thing. True, satan helped him along the way to the wrong choice but ultimately Ananias had the power (regardless of the motivation) to do the right thing.
The word power-exousia does not simply indicate the right but the actual ability and authority to make a decision and carry through (Friberg, UBS and LS Lexicons).
It is used of God's ability and authority.
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
HankD
convicted1
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I am uneasy by calling it free will. No will is 'free'. It has parameters, and it freely moves within those parameters. Convicts freely move within the confines of their jail cells.
The King originally decreed that the rebuilding of Jerusalem stopped. That of course was not God's plan for his redemptive purpose. Why did the King change his mind, did God compel him? Did Nehemiah tall him into it? I think it is save to say. Without the petition of Nehemiah, a servant of God, the King would have not allowed the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
Similar with Pilate. Jesus could have probably talked his way out of crucifixion. Jesus made no argument for his own release. He left Pilate to his bonded will. Pilate was afraid for his own being. Pilate was always going to choose crucifixion. It was built in to his nature. It was Pilate's desire, inclination, his will. Which was in bondage to sin. His two decisions were....1. Crucify Jesus and save himself or sacrifice his position, possible his life. Save Jesus...doing something selfless to save Jesus, which Jesus being God, this would be doing a selfless act for God. The world is enmity with God James 4:4. Pilate was the enemy of God. He could not choose to do good by God.
I understand the sin nature having one myself.
But take the sin of adultery, we have both the ability to choose, and the power not to commit this sin.
Some do, some don't. Saved and/or unsaved.
HankD
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convicted1
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From the human perspective, Pilate could have(not could of so many people type...a pet peeve of mine...LOL), set Jesus free. But there were things set in place to block him from doing that. From the Jews crying 'crucify Him, crucify Him' and 'if you do this, you're not Caesar's friend'. He buckled under pressure and gave in to their demands. So he acted freely within his will.
From God's perspective, it was prophesied of old than His Son MUST die. And NOTHING Pilate could say or do was going to stop it. Crucifixion was the prophesied method of His death. Psalms 22, John 12:32, Isa. 53:12, Matt. 15:28 affirms it. Pilate and Ananias acted freely within their wills.
convicted1
Guest
But that doesn't mean we posess the ability to not sin. If you break one commandment, it's the same breaking all ten. Some people tell lies and don't commit adultery. Doesn't make them any less of a sinner, though. Some are drug addicts, some never touch it. Doesn't make the non-addicts less of a sinner.
Ananias of course had the ability to give an honest offering. He could have said. Here is half of my money. He probably would have lived if he had been honest. The disposition of his heart was his down fall. We always have free will, lost or saved, to break God's perceptive will. That is how it is possible to sin. Ananias lacked the ability to give a love offering to God. He was of the world and is enmity with God. He was in capable of using his will to give an offering out of love to God. His will is in capable of that. His will must do the things of his sinful nature. Which is only do things out of his own inclination....his own sinful nature. This is not to say that the lost do not do nice things for people. The donate millions of dollars every year, they volunteer, they help the homeless, they help old ladies across the street. But they do it for there own reasons, not God's. They do it for self worth, for tax deductions, to impress a girl.....a 100 other reasons. They not once do it to please God. Never for the glory of God. They lack the will to do things for God.
Agreed. I do use the term free will with both natures. I have found NOT to do so confuses most people. The will must always operate within its own boundaries. The reason I always use free will when describing the natural or regenerate man is, to do otherwise, makes God sound like a tyrant to most people. He doesn't make me chose grape or orange soda....he doesn't force me to sin....I do that myself. But even with my "complete liberated free will" of the regenerate man. My will must always be bent when it bumps up against God's will.
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