Free Will?

[McCree79]

God always is in control. His control is not based on: predestination, Unconditional Election, Depravity of Man, etc. This is a man-made system that contradicts itself at many places.
Esther had a decision to make. It was her decision. However she asked that Mordecai and their people fast and pray for three days. This would be ridiculous and of no consequence if everything was predestined, predetermined by God. Why pray at all. There would be no reason for it. The outcome is fixed.

When Esther made a choice, it was her choice. It was clearly marked by her words: "If I perish, I perish." It was a move of great courage. But if Esther believed as you believe (really fatalism); everything is predetermined, she wouldn't have said that. "I will just go; "que sera, sera;" Whatever will be, will be." That wasn't quite the attitude expressed in the words she uttered.

1. Any perceived contradiction you have, feel free to discuss if you like. If not no big deal.

2. Esther did ask for fasting. Even though she didn't ask for prayer, I am sure it happened. Why would they pray and fast? Most likely to for Esther's personal strength and courage in this matter. They weren't trying to force there will.....Esther wasn't even trying to decide. In the same message she asked Mordecai to fast, she said she would go to the king. It was the obvious truth delivered to her by Mordecai that brought this decision on. "Do not imagine that you are the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your fathers house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?" This shows Mordecai's remembrance of the Abrahmic Covent and seeing God's Sovereign will be triumphant. The last verse shows how God's providence shapes our will, and accomplishes his will. Esther believed Mordecai. She knew that she was placed in royalty to make that decision. Which is why she did say. Great example of God' Sovereign will being carried out by his providence.

Once again, an individual had her choice shaped by, her inclination of her heart/nature, and a message from a faithful servant of God. God did not leave her to her own absolute free will. He was there to show her what to do here.

The problem with the verses you are giving us, is that they all are part of God's Sovereign plan of redemption. We will always be able to show you how sinful or regenerated nature's are responsible for these choices. God's plan of redemption can not be stopped, not even by the powerful satan. No doubt if humans could will against God's sovereign will, satan would surely be able to stop God's plan of redemption. But we can't and satan is nothing more than an insect in the hand of God waiting to be crushed.

As said many of times on this thread. Free will is a slave to sin, or a slave to Christ, depending on your nature. Free will can never conflict with your nature of God's Sovereign will. Our will is NOT bound by God's perceptive will(God's law). This will of God we can violate. Otherwise we could not sin.

 

[convicted1]

1. Any perceived contradiction you have, feel free to discuss if you like. If not no big deal.

2. Esther did ask for fasting. Even though she didn't ask for prayer, I am sure it happened. Why would they pray and fast? Most likely to for Esther's personal strength and courage in this matter. They weren't trying to force there will.....Esther wasn't even trying to decide. In the same message she asked Mordecai to fast, she said she would go to the king. It was the obvious truth delivered to her by Mordecai that brought this decision on. "Do not imagine that you are the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your fathers house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?" This shows Mordecai's remembrance of the Abrahmic Covent and seeing God's Sovereign will be triumphant. The last verse shows how God's providence shapes our will, and accomplishes his will. Esther believed Mordecai. She knew that she was placed in royalty to make that decision. Which is why she did say. Great example of God' Sovereign will being carried out by his providence.

Once again, an individual had her choice shaped by, her inclination of her heart/nature, and a message from a faithful servant of God. God did not leave her to her own absolute free will. He was there to show her what to do here.

The problem with the verses you are giving us, is that they all are part of God's Sovereign plan of redemption. We will always be able to show you how sinful or regenerated nature's are responsible for these choices. God's plan of redemption can not be stopped, not even by the powerful satan. No doubt if humans could will against God's sovereign will, satan would surely be able to stop God's plan of redemption. But we can't and satan is nothing more than an insect in the hand of God waiting to be crushed.

As said many of times on this thread. Free will is a slave to sin, or a slave to Christ, depending on your nature. Free will can never conflict with your nature of God's Sovereign will. Our will is NOT bound by God's perceptive will(God's law). This will of God we can violate. Otherwise we could not sin.

You're so blessed with handling scripture it's scary. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

As said many of times on this thread. Free will is a slave to sin, or a slave to Christ, depending on your nature. Free will can never conflict with your nature of God's Sovereign will. Our will is NOT bound by God's perceptive will(God's law). This will of God we can violate. Otherwise we could not sin.

This is the standard answer. God's sovereignty is put above all things. Man is a slave to it. Sovereignty is exalted above attributes of love, justice, etc.
Here is a quote from Dave Hunt, "What Love is This"

Allegedly, by His eternal decree God has predestined man’s every thought, word, and deed, including the heinous atrocities committed by the world’s worst criminals. Man’s rebellion is only the acting out of what God has predetermined man will and must do—so man isn’t a rebel but a puppet.
How can that which God foreordained and causes man to do be condemned as sinful rebellion against God’s will? How can it be disobedience to do what God has willed? How could God complain when man does what He predestined him to do? And how could man then be justly punished for doing what he has no capability of not doing?
Such doctrine defames the God of love and justice who reveals Himself to mankind in the Scriptures.

 

[quantumfaith]

This is the standard answer. God's sovereignty is put above all things. Man is a slave to it. Sovereignty is exalted above attributes of love, justice, etc.
Here is a quote from Dave Hunt, "What Love is This"

I like that quote from Dave Hunt, thanks for sharing it

 

[McCree79]

This is the standard answer. God's sovereignty is put above all things. Man is a slave to it. Sovereignty is exalted above attributes of love, justice, etc.
Here is a quote from Dave Hunt, "What Love is This"

Great question. Paul actually address that question Dave asks. After Paul states that Pharoh was raised up, heart hardened all for the glory of God. He also indicates God harden whomever he wills. The question that follows is "why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? The feeling is this is unfair.....how can God harden a heart and hold that person accountable for sin. His reply is " But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will the molded say to its molder, why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"

Daniel says "all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does to His WILL among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; none can stay his hand or say to him" What have you done""??

Both these verses put us up against God's Sovereign Will.

If Dave is so concerned about being fair, then all of us should go to hell. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The wages of sin are death. Our earned Justice is death. Fortunately this is not the case. God will " he has mercy on whomever he wills".

The problem Dave's view he trying to put a human view of fairness and love on God. God does what he wills not what we will.

 

[convicted1]

People want to assault God's justice when they run outta ammo.

If God saved one, one million, all or none, He's still just, holy, love, pure and true. He'd be just as just if He had chosen to save zero, nil, nadda, goose-egg, zilch...

In mercy, He chose a multitude of sinners to give to Jesus. He bore them upon Himself much like Aaron bore Israel's 12 tribes' names on his shoulders in those onyx stones...

 

[McCree79]

People want to assault God's justice when they run outta ammo.

If God saved one, one million, all or none, He's still just, holy, love, pure and true. He'd be just as just if He had chosen to save zero, nil, nadda, goose-egg, zilch...

In mercy, He chose a multitude of sinners to give to Jesus. He bore them upon Himself much like Aaron bore Israel's 12 tribes' names on his shoulders in those onyx stones...

There is two types of people in this word. Recipients of justice, and recipient of mercy. Both are according and tire to God's nature. We have no right to question God about either. Justice is earned, mercy is a gift.

 

[McCree79]

Dave Hunt is one step away from questioning God's judgment for putting the tree in the garden. I mean how fair is that???? Not to mention....Eve had no clothes on when she gave Adam the fruit. How fair was that.
Bottom line: God's will, not mine be done.

 

[DHK]

Dave Hunt is one step away from questioning God's judgment for putting the tree in the garden. I mean how fair is that???? Not to mention....Eve had no clothes on when she gave Adam the fruit. How fair was that.
Bottom line: God's will, not mine be done.

You do err not knowing the scriptures.
God created Adam and Eve. And they were in the garden and "were naked and not ashamed." Adam was in no way tempted by the nakedness of Eve. He had not sinned nor rebelled yet. He had not known "evil."

Hunt anticipates your reaction. He continues in the next paragraph:

Astonishingly, Calvinists see neither injustice nor contradiction in God foreordaining man’s sin and then punishing him for what he could not avoid doing. This extreme view of sovereignty and predestination is applied to salvation by the doctrine of Unconditional Election. Although the Bible declares clearly and repeatedly that faith is the condition for salvation (“believe…and thou shalt be saved…he that believeth not shall be damned,” etc.), Calvinism’s Unconditional Election will not even allow faith unto salvation. God simply decides to save some, called “the elect,” sovereignly regenerates them, and only thereafter gives them faith to believe on Christ, and damns the rest by His eternal decree. And God allegedly foreordains all this before He brings the doomed and damned into existence.

It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

 

[McCree79]

You do err not knowing the scriptures.
God created Adam and Eve. And they were in the garden and "were naked and not ashamed." Adam was in no way tempted by the nakedness of Eve. He had not sinned nor rebelled yet. He had not known "evil."

Hunt anticipates your reaction. He continues in the next paragraph:

It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

Dude, you miss my joking about nakedness....

 

[McCree79]

You do err not knowing the scriptures.
God created Adam and Eve. And they were in the garden and "were naked and not ashamed." Adam was in no way tempted by the nakedness of Eve. He had not sinned nor rebelled yet. He had not known "evil."

Hunt anticipates your reaction. He continues in the next paragraph:

It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

Dave Hunt needs to learn what Calvinism is. He lacks understand of Election. One of the cries....5 Solas that Calvinist hold is Faith alone.

Where does faith come???? "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is a gift of the God. Not of works, least any man should boast."

...but Dave prefers to boast in his man made will and faith.

 

[McCree79]

You do err not knowing the scriptures.
God created Adam and Eve. And they were in the garden and "were naked and not ashamed." Adam was in no way tempted by the nakedness of Eve. He had not sinned nor rebelled yet. He had not known "evil."

Hunt anticipates your reaction. He continues in the next paragraph:

It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

Hunt apparently also is unaware that Calvinist believe one must first hear the word, before they can have faith. Hunt is unfamiliar with Calvinism and shouldn't be talking about.

 

[McCree79]

Dude, you miss my joking about nakedness....

...and the point was that the tree and the nakedness might as well be part of Hunt's talking points. It falls into his logic of God should be fair

 

[McCree79]

You do err not knowing the scriptures.
God created Adam and Eve. And they were in the garden and "were naked and not ashamed." Adam was in no way tempted by the nakedness of Eve. He had not sinned nor rebelled yet. He had not known "evil."

Hunt anticipates your reaction. He continues in the next paragraph:

It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

If it is unfair for God to create sinful human beings, then the tree in the garden must also be unfair to you.

 

[McCree79]

You do err not knowing the scriptures.
God created Adam and Eve. And they were in the garden and "were naked and not ashamed." Adam was in no way tempted by the nakedness of Eve. He had not sinned nor rebelled yet. He had not known "evil."

Hunt anticipates your reaction. He continues in the next paragraph:

It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

So, Hunt is calling into question Paul's teaching incorrect? Amazing how he attacks Calvinism for not following scripture, but he doesn't address the scripture used to support their argument. He just says their wrong.

 

[McCree79]

Dude, you miss my joking about nakedness....

At what point does Hunt start using scripture? Or does he continue shall his opinions of God without scripture supporting him?

 

[DHK]

Dave Hunt needs to learn what Calvinism is. He lacks understand of Election. One of the cries....5 Solas that Calvinist hold is Faith alone.

Where does faith come???? "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is a gift of the God. Not of works, least any man should boast."

...but Dave prefers to boast in his man made will and faith.

Only what is in quotes is from Hunt, not everything. What you responded to in the above quote was from me.
The question I keep asking to the Cals here is: "What happened to sola fide?" It seems that it has been tossed out the window. Faith on the part of Cals has been abandoned. Read some of the threads. One of the posters here regards faith as a work. He won't even give a testimony for fear that as soon as he says "I believe" it is an admission of works. (At least that is my opinion).

The Bible specifically says that faith comes from hearing God's Word.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--This verse is very simple; very easy to understand.
It need not be complicated. It need not be denied. I will tell you what it DOES NOT mean--It does not mean that faith is supernaturally, mystically, mysteriously sent down from Heaven to the unregenerate. The Bible does not teach such ridiculous concepts.

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God." It is that simple.
That faith comes from the Word does not necessarily mean it is "man-made."
How does man "make" faith?
Over and over again Jesus talked about the faith of others:
"Thy faith has made you whole."
--A Roman centurion requested Jesus to heal his servant because he had the palsy.
Jesus said, "I will come."
The centurion said, "I am not worthy that you should come, only speak the word and he shall be healed."
What did Jesus say?
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
--Where does faith come from? He was an unsaved Roman centurion. Jesus said he had great faith, greater than all the Israelites!
Where did his faith come from?
He had heard the message of Jesus; had seen his works; was convinced that He was who He said he was, and was convinced that He could heal Jesus. That is faith.
Paul defines it using Abraham as an example:

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--What is faith?
It is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will do or perform.
It is being confident in the gospel, in the message or the promises of God that they are true and one can trust them. That is what Abraham was--confident. He was justified by faith; so are we all.

 

[DHK]

At what point does Hunt start using scripture? Or does he continue shall his opinions of God without scripture supporting him?

Hunt never said a thing about nakedness.

 

[DHK]

So, Hunt is calling into question Paul's teaching incorrect? Amazing how he attacks Calvinism for not following scripture, but he doesn't address the scripture used to support their argument. He just says their wrong.

No, he isn't. When I quoted Hunt, I put him in quotes.
You responded once again to me:

Originally Posted by DHK View Post
You do err not knowing the scriptures.
God created Adam and Eve. And they were in the garden and "were naked and not ashamed." Adam was in no way tempted by the nakedness of Eve. He had not sinned nor rebelled yet. He had not known "evil."

Hunt anticipates your reaction. He continues in the next paragraph:

It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

It is Calvinism that is called into question not the epistles of Paul. You are quite presumptuous aren't you?

Again:
It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

Paul commands the Philippian jailer to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the only command that was given him in order to be saved.
He wasn't told to sit in a lotus position; wait for the mysterious, mystical, metaphysical, undefinable, and even superstitious descent of the Holy Spirit that supposedly regenerates him.
No gospel is required. No faith is required. Absolutely nothing is required. He just needs his "nirvana" (oh sorry: "regeneration").

The Bible doesn't teach such ridiculous concepts. Salvation is by faith.
Remember sola fide. What happened to it? Faith is not magical. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he fully able to perform. It is not mystical and mysterious.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
There are scores of Bible verses just like that one including John 3:16.
God does not give faith to the unregenerate.

 

[convicted1]

If it is unfair for God to create sinful human beings, then the tree in the garden must also be unfair to you.