Free Will?

[DHK]

DHK, do you not hold to any of the five points?

As the Calvinists believe and define them: no.

 

[PreachTony]

Now to tie this together. Babies are born at enmity with God, seeing Adam is their federal head. Grace, which includes faith, repentance, regeneration, conversion, and finally, conversion are all gifts of God. There will be no sheep left outside the fold. I, personally, never lost any sleep over a baby's eternal resting place, but the bible isn't clear on this either.

It is God who shows mercy...Romans 9:16....

Just curious, but, I take this to mean that you believe David's son with Bathsheba, whom God took as punishment for David's sin, was one of the Elect. After all, David knew his future with God, and he claimed that he (David) would see his child again.

 

[McCree79]

DHK,

"The Calvinist believes that in some mysterious way the unsaved is regenerated without ever hearing the gospel."

That is absolutely not true. Anyone teaching that is not following teaching of Calvin, Sproul, MacArthur, Augustine.... They practice hyper Calvinism which is a perversion of the teaching and contradicts scripture.

Let me change the statement a little to make true for the Calvinist. The Holy Spirit moves and changes the disposition of your heart...not mysterious....It is at that time you can have faith, that you can understand the word of God, that you can choose to accept Jesus. The word must be present, otherwise how would you know what to have faith in. It is the Holy Spirit, that gives is the understand and presents us with the power to freely chose God. They also believe that with understanding of God's word, and the sanctification the Holy Spirit has initiated. That the regenerate man will chose Jesus. Effectual call. So, regeneration does proceed Faith, but not hearing the word. I guess technically regeneration could proceed hearing the word, by the exact amount of time it took the witness to share with the unbeliever.... But they go hand in hand. Weather regeneration occurs right before, during or right after hearing is neither or nor there. As in the man would now be able to understand what the witness just said, is saying or going to say. Regardless regeneration proceeds faith.

 

[McCree79]

You can look up some of the quotes by the ones that you have mentioned or even of some on the board.
1. Calvinism comes as a package. Either you believe all or none. A Calvinist is one who believes in all five points.
2. Calvinism is the gospel. (The conclusion of that is non-Calvinists are not saved.)
3. As per the above, one Calvinist directly said to me, "And I will not bid you God-speed." This was in this last week.

R.C. Sproul, in Chosen by God, page 10: "A cardinal point of the Reformed theology is the maxim, 'Regeneration precedes faith.'"
It is the faith required to believe the gospel.

Regeneration does proceed faith. Your claim was that it proceeds hearing.

 

[The Biblicist]

Saving faith IS a gift of God and the work of God. The "gift" in Ephesians 2:8 refers to the whole phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith" and not merely to the words "by grace are ye saved." This is easy to prove. The subject introduced in verse 1 is quickening. In verse 5 this quickening is equivilent to and inclusive of "for by grace are ye saved" as that is given to be the parenthetical explanation for this act of quickening. The very same phrase is then again repeated in verse 8 and still refers to the act of quickening as a completed action. That completed action is then described as the "workmanship of God CREATED in Christ Jesus" in verse 10 rather than of works as it is a creative act of God that produces good works. It must be inclusive of "saved" or otherwise, one can be "created in Christ" without faith.

It is true that saving faith is inseparable from the gospel. However, the Bible makes a clear distinction between hearing the gospel with the physical ear that comes by simple proclamation and the gospel entering the human heart by way of divine revelation (2 Cor. 4:6). The human messenger can bring the gospel to the exterior ear but he cannot place it in the heart. In 2 Corinthians 4:6 there is indisputably an effectual call that is used as the analogy from Genesis 1:2-3 to explain the creative act by God required to reveal the gospel in the heart. The gospel come from men "in word only" but in the salvation of any man it does not come "in word only BUT in power and in the Holy Ghost." That is the effectual call in direct contrast with the general external call of the gospel. True, both must occur at the point of salvation, but the external call NEVER results in salvation of anyone by itself.

Election is "TO" salvation and never to damnation (2 Thes. 2:13). There is no such doctrine as predestinated damnation or election to damnation.

 

[McCree79]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is the KJV. Look it up in your own Bible. Notice that "it is" is in italics. Those two words are not in the original, but inserted to make the sentence make sense in reading. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that faith is the gift of God given to unbelievers. It is not.
What is the gift here? It is salvation.
The subject and verb here are: You, are saved. Everything centers around those three words or the subject of salvation.

How are you saved: "through faith" an adverbial prepositional phrase modifying the verb, "are saved."
By what means are you saved: "by faith" an adverbial prepositional phrase modifying the verb "are saved."
We are saved, "not of ourselves."
Salvation is the gift of God.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is not of works.
Why? Salvation is not of works because then it would give occasion for one to boast in their works instead of in Christ.

The subject is salvation: how, "Ye are saved."
The subject is not faith.

So I first have to have faith to receive the gift of salvation? You just made salvation by works. If I have to generate my own faith before God will save me....I worked for it, I earned it. You have contradicted the very scripture you quoted.

 

[DHK]

Let me change the statement a little to make true for the Calvinist. The Holy Spirit moves and changes the disposition of your heart...not mysterious....It is at that time you can have faith, that you can understand the word of God, that you can choose to accept Jesus. The word must be present, otherwise how would you know what to have faith in. It is the Holy Spirit, that gives is the understand and presents us with the power to freely chose God. They also believe that with understanding of God's word, and the sanctification the Holy Spirit has initiated. That the regenerate man will chose Jesus. Effectual call. So, regeneration does proceed Faith, but not hearing the word. I guess technically regeneration could proceed hearing the word, by the exact amount of time it took the witness to share with the unbeliever.... But they go hand in hand. Weather regeneration occurs right before, during or right after hearing is neither or nor there. As in the man would now be able to understand what the witness just said, is saying or going to say. Regardless regeneration proceeds faith.

I quoted to you these examples:

The Calvinist believes that in some mysterious way the unsaved is regenerated without ever hearing the gospel. Then through that regeneration he is given faith to believe and then it is possible for him to be saved. I believe that is nonsense.

There are some that believe, for example, that Cornelius was regenerated days before Peter ever reached him.
Or, the Eunuch was regenerated long before Philip reached the chariot,
that, Lydia was regenerated before Paul ever came to her.

These assumptions are not Biblical but are needed to prop up the TULIP assertions of Calvinism, that faith follows regeneration. It is a nonsensical premise not taught in the Bible.

You just said:
"Let me change the statement a little to make true for the Calvinist. The Holy Spirit moves and changes the disposition of your heart...not mysterious....It is at that time you can have faith..."

But you are unwilling to call it "mysterious."
It is. It is undefinable to you. One poster tries to use Ezekiel 36:25-38 to describe it. Boiled down to a simple explanation (which you must for one who has never heard the gospel), it goes like this:
God is going to reach in and take that stoney heart out of you and replace it with a heart of flesh. Then he is going to sprinkle it with clean pure water. After that you will be clean and you will desire to obey the Lord, Okay? That is what the new birth is all about.
Is that how a person gets saved? Is that what you call regeneration?

It is a mystical, mysterious, metaphysical, superstitious, undefinable work that somehow the Holy Spirit does to an unregenerate man that both regenerates this unsaved man and gives him faith even though he has never heard the gospel, never heard the name of Christ, and knows nothing of Christianity. Absurd!

 

[McCree79]

Saving faith IS a gift of God and the work of God. The "gift" in Ephesians 2:8 refers to the whole phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith" and not merely to the words "by grace are ye saved." This is easy to prove. The subject introduced in verse 1 is quickening. In verse 5 this quickening is equivilent to and inclusive of "for by grace are ye saved" as that is given to be the parenthetical explanation for this act of quickening. The very same phrase is then again repeated in verse 8 and still refers to the act of quickening as a completed action. That completed action is then described as the "workmanship of God CREATED in Christ Jesus" in verse 10 rather than of works as it is a creative act of God that produces good works. It must be inclusive of "saved" or otherwise, one can be "created in Christ" without faith.

It is true that saving faith is inseparable from the gospel. However, the Bible makes a clear distinction between hearing the gospel with the physical ear that comes by simple proclamation and the gospel entering the human heart by way of divine revelation (2 Cor. 4:6). The human messenger can bring the gospel to the exterior ear but he cannot place it in the heart. In 2 Corinthians 4:6 there is indisputably an effectual call that is used as the analogy from Genesis 1:2-3 to explain the creative act by God required to reveal the gospel in the heart. The gospel come from men "in word only" but in the salvation of any man it does not come "in word only BUT in power and in the Holy Ghost." That is the effectual call in direct contrast with the general external call of the gospel. True, both must occur at the point of salvation, but the external call NEVER results in salvation of anyone by itself.

Election is "TO" salvation and never to damnation (2 Thes. 2:13). There is no such doctrine as predestinated damnation or election to damnation.

Excellent post. But FYI, there is a growing doctrine of double predestination held by many hyper Calvinist. It teaches God predestines for salvation and damnation. So it us under stable how people can believe Calvinist hold this view, since hyper-Calvinists present themselves as Calvinists. They lack understanding and distort the teaching.

 

[DHK]

So I first have to have faith to receive the gift of salvation? You just made salvation by works. If I have to generate my own faith before God will save me....I worked for it, I earned it. You have contradicted the very scripture you quoted.

This is the typical accusation of the Calvinist. Faith is always in opposition to works. It is not a work. It is a condition of salvation but not a work.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--It was because of Abraham's faith that he was counted for righteousness or that righteousness was imputed unto him, not because of his works.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To those that work a reward is reckoned. The reward is a wage. A man works and he deserves a wage at the end of the day. He worked for it. It is the debt that the employer must pay for the "work" done.

"But to him that works not, but "believes", he is the one that is justified.
We are justified by faith. Faith is not a work, but is contrasted to works.

 

[DHK]

Excellent post. But FYI, there is a growing doctrine of double predestination held by many hyper Calvinist. It teaches God predestines for salvation and damnation. So it us under stable how people can believe Calvinist hold this view, since hyper-Calvinists present themselves as Calvinists. They lack understanding and distort the teaching.

This is not hyper-Calvinism. It is Calvinism, the Calvinism that Calvin taught and that Sproul and MacArthur teaches. If you don't believe it you are not consistent in your Calvinism.

 

[McCree79]

I quoted to you these examples:

The Calvinist believes that in some mysterious way the unsaved is regenerated without ever hearing the gospel. Then through that regeneration he is given faith to believe and then it is possible for him to be saved. I believe that is nonsense.

There are some that believe, for example, that Cornelius was regenerated days before Peter ever reached him.
Or, the Eunuch was regenerated long before Philip reached the chariot,
that, Lydia was regenerated before Paul ever came to her.

These assumptions are not Biblical but are needed to prop up the TULIP assertions of Calvinism, that faith follows regeneration. It is a nonsensical premise not taught in the Bible.

You just said:
"Let me change the statement a little to make true for the Calvinist. The Holy Spirit moves and changes the disposition of your heart...not mysterious....It is at that time you can have faith..."

But you are unwilling to call it "mysterious."
It is. It is undefinable to you. One poster tries to use Ezekiel 36:25-38 to describe it. Boiled down to a simple explanation (which you must for one who has never heard the gospel), it goes like this:
God is going to reach in and take that stoney heart out of you and replace it with a heart of flesh. Then he is going to sprinkle it with clean pure water. After that you will be clean and you will desire to obey the Lord, Okay? That is what the new birth is all about.
Is that how a person gets saved? Is that what you call regeneration?

It is a mystical, mysterious, metaphysical, superstitious, undefinable work that somehow the Holy Spirit does to an unregenerate man that both regenerates this unsaved man and gives him faith even though he has never heard the gospel, never heard the name of Christ, and knows nothing of Christianity. Absurd!

You keep saying Calvinism is the belief of saving someone who hasn't heard the word. That is incorrect. You keep saying as if you are trying to tell John Calvin what he taught. You can't defeat Calvinism on its teachings so you are changing it. Regeneration is the changing of the disposition of ones soul. Making it alive. Unregenerate man is spiritually dead. How can anything dead, do anything? The spiritually dead are unable to do anything unless God first makes them alive.

 

[McCree79]

This is the typical accusation of the Calvinist. Faith is always in opposition to works. It is not a work. It is a condition of salvation but not a work.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--It was because of Abraham's faith that he was counted for righteousness or that righteousness was imputed unto him, not because of his works.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To those that work a reward is reckoned. The reward is a wage. A man works and he deserves a wage at the end of the day. He worked for it. It is the debt that the employer must pay for the "work" done.

"But to him that works not, but "believes", he is the one that is justified.
We are justified by faith. Faith is not a work, but is contrasted to works.

If faith comes from you it is a work. You have manufactured a deed under your own power to earn salvation.

 

[McCree79]

This is not hyper-Calvinism. It is Calvinism, the Calvinism that Calvin taught and that Sproul and MacArthur teaches. If you don't believe it you are not consistent in your Calvinism.

I love how you tell Sproul, MacArthur, and Calvin what they teach/believe. Sproul many times preaches against double predestination. I guess you better email him and tell him he doesn't believe that. You quoted from Sprouls "chosen by God" flip to his chapter called "is predestination double". You will see it is not.

 

[McCree79]

I love how you tell Sproul, MacArthur, and Calvin what they teach/believe. Sproul many times preaches against double predestination. I guess you better email him and tell him he doesn't believe that. You quoted from Sprouls "chosen by God" flip to his chapter called "is predestination double". You will see it is not.

Pages 157-161 in Sproul's," what is reformed theology" also clarifies the differences between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinsim.

 

[DHK]

You keep saying Calvinism is the belief of saving someone who hasn't heard the word. That is incorrect. You keep saying as if you are trying to tell John Calvin what he taught. You can't defeat Calvinism on its teachings so you are changing it. Regeneration is the changing of the disposition of ones soul. Making it alive. Unregenerate man is spiritually dead. How can anything dead, do anything? The spiritually dead are unable to do anything unless God first makes them alive.

You got that teaching from echoing Calvin and his followers, not from the Bible.
Yes, unbelievers are dead and apart from Christ.
BTW, so are believers when they sin.

Death, in the Bible, simply means "separation." Sin separates us from God. Even a believer is separated from God by his sin. He loses his fellowship, not his salvation, and in order for that fellowship to be restored he must confess his sin and repent of it. (1John 1:9).

When Eph.2:1 says "that you were once dead in sins..." it is not speaking of a corpse, lifeless," it is speaking of separation. The Ephesians were separated from God. If they were as a corpse they would not be able to choose evil either. Separation allows their spirit to make choices, but in your view the wrong choice. He makes choices nevertheless. The spirit is not "dead" as in lifeless. It is very much active. There are demon-possessed individuals who have attached their spirits with demons. People in the occult use their spirits to contact other evil spirits.
But as far as God is concerned their spirits remain "inoperable," and separated from God. They are not as corpses, lifeless. They are separated.

What is the basic problem then? It is a problem of reconciliation.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

We, as ambassadors of Christ, have this great ministry of preaching a message of reconciliation--the gospel. It is described here in this passage. God through Christ, has reconciled the world unto himself (notice it does not say the elect).
He has made Christ to be sin for us (the world not the elect).
Therefore be ye reconciled to God.

The problem was one of reconciliation. They were separated from God and needed to be reconciled back to God. They were not lifeless, but the spirit was alienated. The gospel can bring that spirit into a right relationship with God, who is light and life.

 

[McCree79]

You got that teaching from echoing Calvin and his followers, not from the Bible.
Yes, unbelievers are dead and apart from Christ.
BTW, so are believers when they sin.

Death, in the Bible, simply means "separation." Sin separates us from God. Even a believer is separated from God by his sin. He loses his fellowship, not his salvation, and in order for that fellowship to be restored he must confess his sin and repent of it. (1John 1:9).

When Eph.2:1 says "that you were once dead in sins..." it is not speaking of a corpse, lifeless," it is speaking of separation. The Ephesians were separated from God. If they were as a corpse they would not be able to choose evil either. Separation allows their spirit to make choices, but in your view the wrong choice. He makes choices nevertheless. The spirit is not "dead" as in lifeless. It is very much active. There are demon-possessed individuals who have attached their spirits with demons. People in the occult use their spirits to contact other evil spirits.
But as far as God is concerned their spirits remain "inoperable," and separated from God. They are not as corpses, lifeless. They are separated.

What is the basic problem then? It is a problem of reconciliation.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

We, as ambassadors of Christ, have this great ministry of preaching a message of reconciliation--the gospel. It is described here in this passage. God through Christ, has reconciled the world unto himself (notice it does not say the elect).
He has made Christ to be sin for us (the world not the elect).
Therefore be ye reconciled to God.

The problem was one of reconciliation. They were separated from God and needed to be reconciled back to God. They were not lifeless, but the spirit was alienated. The gospel can bring that spirit into a right relationship with God, who is light and life.

Ephesians 2:1 , once dead in sin. Dead does not mean separated. It means dead. Greek word nekros is used. Which means dead person. Ephesians 4:18 uses the Greek word apallotrioo which does mean separated. Ephesians 4:18 says we are separated(apallotrioo) from the LIFE of God. So of the author meant we were separated by sin only, which use the word for dead person. Many other words he could have used. Such as the one he used to chapters later.....which he used to say we are separated from life. Not life with God. Life of God. Everlasting life.

Which teaching were you referring too. Sproul teaching the difference between Calvinism and hyper Calvinism???? Yeah, I got that from Sproul. My bible is missing the book that talks about what Calvin really taught and what he didn't. Apparently your bible does tell you what Calvinist's believe.

 

[McCree79]

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God."
That's kind of a problem for your "come to God by works of faith" view.

Romans 28-30 brings a problem you must solve as well. "...To those whom he called for his purposeThose he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to his son, ....whom he predestined, these he also called; whom he called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
So those who God knew, he predestined for sanctification, those sanctified, he called, he justified, he glorified.

No one can come to the Jesus, unless granted to him by the Father....John..... I don't have a bible....had to paraphrase

We need to be invited to Jesus. We don't chose to go to Jesus.

Your theology has been made clear: Faith through works saves. Which you contradict in the verses you supply. You claim to will your own faith. When scripture says it is from God. Scripture also says none are good, not one.
The things of God are folly to the wicked, they can not understand. How does one understand scripture(spiritual aspect) if none are good. If left to our wicked nature, there would not be a single soul in heaven....other than the heavenly host.

You also said when also are separated from God when sin after being saved.

Not only do you believe in salvation by works of faith, we lose our salvation. So we must have some 2nd plank of justification. I'm guessing you are catholic??? Not a problem if you are. It just helps me understand you point of view. I would look at you profile, but I'm on my phone (Tapatalk) and the app keeps crashing. I have been trying to send this message for probably 40min. I keep having to start over....which sucks

 

[convicted1]

Just curious, but, I take this to mean that you believe David's son with Bathsheba, whom God took as punishment for David's sin, was one of the Elect. After all, David knew his future with God, and he claimed that he (David) would see his child again.

David grieved, laid in the street and groaned and mourned, would not bathe himself, would not even so much as eat one morsel of bread. Then when they told him his son died, they were afraid to do so, fearing he might kill himself, iirc. He then made the remark he could go to him. Was he referring to the grave or heaven? I truly don't know and any opinions or thoughts are just that, thoughts and opinions....

 

[McCree79]

David grieved, laid in the street and groaned and mourned, would not bathe himself, would not even so much as eat one morsel of bread. Then when they told him his son died, they were afraid to do so, fearing he might kill himself, irc. He then made the remark he could go to him. Was he referring to the grave or heaven? I truly don't know and any opinions or thoughts are just that, thoughts and opinions....

I think that is about as far we can go with it. Thoughts, opinions and hope. The fact that none of us can prove "age of accountability" makes abortion all the bigger concern. I really do hope there is an age of accountability, but my "theory" from posts early this a.m. is the best I can do. Your question, about what was David was referring to that grave or Heaven.......I could go either way. No idea.

 

[convicted1]

I believe that regeneration/salvation/conversion/justification/sanctification (positional), etc. all take place at the same time. The are simultaneous. In fact we receive so much more than I mentioned at that point at the time of conversion.
However for that to happen the gospel must be heard first. One cannot be regenerated/saved without the gospel. Then faith in the gospel leads to salvation. Hence Paul commands:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

No Calvinist believes one is saved outside the gospel, none that I know. I continually refer to Romans 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21 & 15:10,11, Eph. 1:13 and also Acts 4:12. You're fighting a windmill, because what you're seeing in Calvinism is a figment of your imagination.

The Calvinist believes that in some mysterious way the unsaved is regenerated without ever hearing the gospel.

Uhhhhh, that's those of your own ilk, and not a Calvinist. Want proof? Here ya go...

Very Good! :thumbsup: Also under #4, even if another person does not preach to these isolated individuals, it has been reported abroad how some have been visited by an angel in dreams or even Jesus Christ Himself, which sparked a harvest of sheep for God in remote areas. God is not limited to us, God is Sovereign and can do as He so pleases, even allowing folks to make a freewill choice if He so pleases.

Steaver, he is of the free will persuasion, and he gave a pure mystical post there. You can find in the '6 non-cal myths' thread in the Cal/Arm forum.

Then through that regeneration he is given faith to believe and then it is possible for him to be saved.

Well, you say they are given a choice, an ability to either accept or reject the gospel's reconciling message. Man needs no ability to reject God. They automatically do that already. That's why they need regenerated.

I believe that is nonsense.

You would. It's sound biblical teaching and you continually reject anything sound. But hey, you're at least consistent...consistently wrong, but consistent. :thumbsup:

There are some that believe, for example, that Cornelius was regenerated days before Peter ever reached him.
Or, the Eunuch was regenerated long before Philip reached the chariot,
that, Lydia was regenerated before Paul ever came to her.

These assumptions are not Biblical but are needed to prop up the TULIP assertions of Calvinism, that faith follows regeneration. It is a nonsensical premise not taught in the Bible.

Keep up the good work! I am not saying one's regenerated for days. I don't know. But regeneration preceeds conversion....