Free Will?

[The Biblicist]

The Bible provides only two alternative sources from which every thought, word and deed are derived from.

1. The flesh

2. The Spirit

There is no third option. Faith is listed as a "fruit" or product of the Spirit - never the flesh. The unregenerated man does not have the Spirit and never will have the Spirit as that is the nature of the unregenerate state.

The cause of inability (spiritual death) is not lack of will power. The cause of inability is lack of desire. The lost man will not "seek" God because there is an issue of enmity toward God that must be changed before there can be any desire for willingness.

This is why Jesus said that a bad tree (bad heart) cannot produce good fruit (faith, hope, joy, longsuffering, etc.). The tree must first be made good (regeneration) and it is that quickening act of God whereby the human spirit is brought into spiritual union with God's Spirit, thus created in "righteousness and true holiness". The fruit is inclusive in the tree when it is made good or else it could not be called "good" as it is the very fruit that provides the characterization of goodness. Thus what God creates is a believing heart and what he uses to create it with is the empowered gospel. Thus the gospel is the creative word that the new heart embraces upon the act of creation.

 

[McCree79]

The Bible provides only two alternative sources from which every thought, word and deed are derived from.

1. The flesh

2. The Spirit

There is no third option. Faith is listed as a "fruit" or product of the Spirit - never the flesh. The unregenerated man does not have the Spirit and never will have the Spirit as that is the nature of the unregenerate state.

Well....that will take the wind out of your sails

 

[DHK]

No Calvinist believes one is saved outside the gospel, none that I know. I continually refer to Romans 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21 & 15:10,11, Eph. 1:13 and also Acts 4:12. You're fighting a windmill, because what you're seeing in Calvinism is a figment of your imagination.

If regeneration and salvation are simultaneous then you all do. That is exactly what I said. You surely can't deny it, or at least see the inconsistency in your own position.
That is why one poster insists that Cornelius, a devout man, that "devout" of a necessity must refer to "regeneration." He was regenerated before Peter came. It is a ludicrous position. The word "devout" simply means religious. But the Calvinist will go to any extreme to justify their position. He got saved/regenerated when Peter preached the gospel to them.
Tell me why do Calvinists believe Cornelius was regenerated before he heard the gospel, before he met Peter? I know. "It is a mystery"--another stock Calvinist answer.

Well, you say they are given a choice, an ability to either accept or reject the gospel's reconciling message. Man needs no ability to reject God. They automatically do that already. That's why they need regenerated.

This is a passage of scripture that describe the unsaved:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
--These men hold the truth in unrighteousness. They have heard the truth and made a conscious decision to reject it. They made that choice.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
--Paul says that it was a choice, a real choice that God gave them. It was one they didn't have to reject. God was shown unto them. He, in some way, revealed himself unto them, that they did not have to reject him. They were responsible for the choice that God gave them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--Now God says they are without excuse.
They are without excuse for not believing the natural revelation of God;
they are without excuse for not believing in the triune Godhead;
they are without excuse for making the wrong choice and rejecting God.
This has nothing to do with predestination, foreknowledge, etc. It has to do with faith and free will. They chose to do wrong. They, by God, are being held accountable for their own actions.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
--They knew who God was. They had the truth.
And yet they did not glorify him as God. Instead they rejected him.
They were not thankful, but became vain in their own thinking and their foolish heart was darkened. The rest of the chapter tells you the consequences of their choices, made from their own free will, of their rejection of God. They had knowledge; they rejected the truth.

Keep up the good work! I am not saying one's regenerated for days. I don't know. But regeneration preceeds conversion....

They are simultaneous and that is why the gospel and faith must precede them first.
The source of faith is the Word.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That fact has never changed.

What you believe is that there are many regenerated people that may or may not have faith all wandering this world and yet not saved. Ridiculous.
Like Cornelius, regenerated, but not saved. Absurd.

 

[McCree79]

Who said anything about Cornelius?

 

[DHK]

If faith comes from you it is a work. You have manufactured a deed under your own power to earn salvation.

I posted:
Originally Posted by DHK
This is the typical accusation of the Calvinist. Faith is always in opposition to works. It is not a work. It is a condition of salvation but not a work.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--It was because of Abraham's faith that he was counted for righteousness or that righteousness was imputed unto him, not because of his works.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To those that work a reward is reckoned. The reward is a wage. A man works and he deserves a wage at the end of the day. He worked for it. It is the debt that the employer must pay for the "work" done.

"But to him that works not, but "believes", he is the one that is justified.
We are justified by faith. Faith is not a work, but is contrasted to works.

And the above answer is all you could give, just a one line opinion?? Really?
I guess the Scripture is not for you?

 

[DHK]

Who said anything about Cornelius?

Follow along more carefully.
As I have said, there are many, even on this board that believe:
Cornelius was regenerated before Peter came,
the Ethiopian Eunuch was regenerated before Philip came,
Lydia was regenerated before Paul came,

and for what reason? All to prop up some unbiblical propositions of Calvinism.

 

[convicted1]

Follow along more carefully.
As I have said, there are many, even on this board that believe:
Cornelius was regenerated before Peter came,
the Ethiopian Eunuch was regenerated before Philip came,
Lydia was regenerated before Paul came,

and for what reason? All to prop up some unbiblical propositions of Calvinism.

I gave you steaver's response and got 'chirp, chirp, chirp'. You never opposed him for stating that. How come you didn't?

 

[Reformed]

May I ask you a question completely unrelated to this thread? You said:

and for what reason? All to prop up some unbiblical propositions of Calvinism.

When you make this type of statement (and you have made many similar statements over the years) how is that nothing more than just a drive-by pot shot? I can make the exact same statement:

and for what reason? All to prop up some unbiblical propositions of Synergism

These comments, from both sides of the aisle, accomplish nothing. We all know that Synergists believe the Monergist position is unbiblical and the Monergists believe the Synergist position is unbiblical. How is that news?

 

[convicted1]

Follow along more carefully.
As I have said, there are many, even on this board that believe:
Cornelius was regenerated before Peter came,
the Ethiopian Eunuch was regenerated before Philip came,
Lydia was regenerated before Paul came,

and for what reason? All to prop up some unbiblical propositions of Calvinism.

The eunuch was going back home after being in Jerusalem to worship. Cornelius' prayers had been heard. Something was going on before Philip and Peter, through their preaching converted them. The gospel was already at work at some point in time...

--And having arisen, he went on, and lo, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch, a man of rank, of Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who was over all her treasure, who had come to worship to Jerusalem;(Acts 8:27 YLT)

He had been to Jerusalem beforehand...

--And there was a certain man in Cesarea, by name Cornelius, a centurion from a band called Italian, pious, and fearing God with all his house, doing also many kind acts to the people, and beseeching God always, he saw in a vision manifestly, as it were the ninth hour of the day, a messenger of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, `Cornelius;' and he having looked earnestly on him, and becoming afraid, said, `What is it, Lord?' And he said to him, `Thy prayers and thy kind acts came up for a memorial before God,(Acts 10:1-4 YLT)

He's had to have already heard the gospel and it was already at work, imo. Even you said Acts was a book of transition. People want to use Cornelius' experience to prove God can visit people themselves. But that no longer happens. People were being raised from the dead...see Eutychus(sp?), people were healed as the Apostles passed by, and also touching cloths the Apostles touched...gross abuse of today's prayer cloths...


But the gospel was already working...

 

[convicted1]

When you make this type of statement (and you have made many similar statements over the years) how is that nothing more than just a drive-by pot shot? I can make the exact same statement:

He can do this because he's the 'grand poobah' a moderator who oversteps his authority time and again by getting in the last word and closing a thread, deleting posts and acting like they never were there to begin with. And we must suffer him because we can put him on ick-nore, because he's the 'grand poobah', the 'illustrious potentate'...

 

[McCree79]

Where does the word come from? The same place grace, faith and righteous come from.

Addressing the other pont you made.....
"The word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us BEING saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
Unless you are being saved, you can not understand the Gospel. Which means the Holy Spirit has to start the process in you before you can understand. How can one have faith in a Gospel he cannot understand?

 

[McCree79]

I posted:
Originally Posted by DHK
This is the typical accusation of the Calvinist. Faith is always in opposition to works. It is not a work. It is a condition of salvation but not a work.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--It was because of Abraham's faith that he was counted for righteousness or that righteousness was imputed unto him, not because of his works.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To those that work a reward is reckoned. The reward is a wage. A man works and he deserves a wage at the end of the day. He worked for it. It is the debt that the employer must pay for the "work" done.

"But to him that works not, but "believes", he is the one that is justified.
We are justified by faith. Faith is not a work, but is contrasted to works.

And the above answer is all you could give, just a one line opinion?? Really?
I guess the Scripture is not for you?

Who generates your faith? You already said one must have faith before the holy spirit regenerates you. So your faith has to me man made. Faith by your works.

 

[convicted1]

Where does the word come from? The same place grace, faith and righteous come from.

Addressing the other pont you made.....
"The word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us BEING saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
Unless you are being saved, you can not understand the Gospel. Which means the Holy Spirit has to start the process in you before you can understand. How can one have faith in a Gospel he cannot understand?

He's trying to dig himself out of the hole he's in of his own making, we're just giving him a bigger shovel...

 

[McCree79]

I posted:
Originally Posted by DHK
This is the typical accusation of the Calvinist. Faith is always in opposition to works. It is not a work. It is a condition of salvation but not a work.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--It was because of Abraham's faith that he was counted for righteousness or that righteousness was imputed unto him, not because of his works.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--To those that work a reward is reckoned. The reward is a wage. A man works and he deserves a wage at the end of the day. He worked for it. It is the debt that the employer must pay for the "work" done.

"But to him that works not, but "believes", he is the one that is justified.
We are justified by faith. Faith is not a work, but is contrasted to works.

And the above answer is all you could give, just a one line opinion?? Really?
I guess the Scripture is not for you?

...and as it was stated by another.....faith is the fruit of the Spirit, not flesh

 

[convicted1]

Who generates your faith? You already said one must have faith before the holy spirit regenerates you. So your faith has to me man made. Faith by your works.

He'll state that faith comes from hearing the gospel, and that's true. But where does it generate once heard? I have tried to ask him the same question. Good luck getting a response.

 

[Reformed]

He can do this because he's the 'grand poobah' a moderator who oversteps his authority time and again by getting in the last word and closing a thread, deleting posts and acting like they never were there to begin with. And we must suffer him because we can put him on ick-nore, because he's the 'grand poobah', the 'illustrious potentate'...

Willis,

No worries. I will let you on to something I have been doing for quite a while now on posts that I think I may want to hold on to:

 

[DHK]

He can do this because he's the 'grand poobah' a moderator who oversteps his authority time and again by getting in the last word and closing a thread, deleting posts and acting like they never were there to begin with. And we must suffer him because we can put him on ick-nore, because he's the 'grand poobah', the 'illustrious potentate'...

Please don't post false accusations. This post is disgraceful and far greater attack than the few words that I posted which were against Calvinism in general.
You have: one, attacked me personally--definitely against the rules.
and, secondly, attacked me as a moderator in this post, against the rules again.

You have stepped way over the line. I simply said something to the effect that this was an inconsistency of Calvinism--hardly an infraction. Reformed pointed out that it was the manner in which I said it that made it offensive. It wasn't an attack on anyone as this post is.

 

[DHK]

...and as it was stated by another.....faith is the fruit of the Spirit, not flesh

I have been saying that for years. That is precisely why faith is not a gift given to the unregenerate. There is nowhere in the Bible which says faith is given to the unregenerate or the unsaved. Absurd!

 

[DHK]

Who generates your faith? You already said one must have faith before the holy spirit regenerates you. So your faith has to me man made. Faith by your works.

Why does faith have to be "generated"?
Why does faith have to be "made"?

Perhaps you should define "faith."
It appears you don't know what faith is.

 

[McCree79]

Please don't post false accusations. This post is disgraceful and far greater attack than the few words that I posted which were against Calvinism in general.
You have: one, attacked me personally--definitely against the rules.
and, secondly, attacked me as a moderator in this post, against the rules again.

You have stepped way over the line. I simply said something to the effect that this was an inconsistency of Calvinism--hardly an infraction. Reformed pointed out that it was the manner in which I said it that made it offensive. It wasn't an attack on anyone as this post is.

You are not describing Calvinism. You are applying the views of the hyper-calvinist to reformes theology