Free Will?

[convicted1]

DHK, you state Romans 10:17 over and ober again like we are disagreeing with that verse. FTR, even monergists believes that, or at least this monergist does.



Now, faith does come by hearing the word of God, I will never deny that. Answer this for me...when they hear the word of God, the gospel of their salvation, does faith come from the preacher's words piercing the sinner's ears of does it come from the Spirit sensitizing the soul of a man's ears?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

DHK, you state Romans 10:17 over and ober again like we are disagreeing with that verse. FTR, even monergists believes that, or at least this monergist does.



Now, faith does come by hearing the word of God, I will never deny that. Answer this for me...when they hear the word of God, the gospel of their salvation, does faith come from the preacher's words piercing the sinner's ears of does it come from the Spirit sensitizing the soul of a man's ears?

Go further with that Willis. Does it have to be delivered from a preacher? I say no...I say the Word could be direct from God.

 

[convicted1]

Go further with that Willis. Does it have to be delivered from a preacher? I say no...I say the Word could be direct from God.

That's further than the record of God states it, imo. God has chosen to save His sheep via the gospel, the good news, of Jesus Christ.


1 Cor. 1:21 & 15:10,11
Romans 1:16
Eph. 1:13

I think even Acts 4:12 is applicable here....

 

[McCree79]

Hunt never said a thing about nakedness.

I know.....I was joking about his fairness claim.....and saying he might as well say this....never mind, it was a joke and not important

 

[McCree79]

Only what is in quotes is from Hunt, not everything. What you responded to in the above quote was from me.
The question I keep asking to the Cals here is: "What happened to sola fide?" It seems that it has been tossed out the window. Faith on the part of Cals has been abandoned. Read some of the threads. One of the posters here regards faith as a work. He won't even give a testimony for fear that as soon as he says "I believe" it is an admission of works. (At least that is my opinion).

The Bible specifically says that faith comes from hearing God's Word.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--This verse is very simple; very easy to understand.
It need not be complicated. It need not be denied. I will tell you what it DOES NOT mean--It does not mean that faith is supernaturally, mystically, mysteriously sent down from Heaven to the unregenerate. The Bible does not teach such ridiculous concepts.

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God." It is that simple.
That faith comes from the Word does not necessarily mean it is "man-made."
How does man "make" faith?
Over and over again Jesus talked about the faith of others:
"Thy faith has made you whole."
--A Roman centurion requested Jesus to heal his servant because he had the palsy.
Jesus said, "I will come."
The centurion said, "I am not worthy that you should come, only speak the word and he shall be healed."
What did Jesus say?
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
--Where does faith come from? He was an unsaved Roman centurion. Jesus said he had great faith, greater than all the Israelites!
Where did his faith come from?
He had heard the message of Jesus; had seen his works; was convinced that He was who He said he was, and was convinced that He could heal Jesus. That is faith.
Paul defines it using Abraham as an example:

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--What is faith?
It is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will do or perform.
It is being confident in the gospel, in the message or the promises of God that they are true and one can trust them. That is what Abraham was--confident. He was justified by faith; so are we all.

Faith alone. Luther taught it, along with Calvin, Sproul, Grudem, MacArthur..... It is one of the 5 Solas that drove reformers. Any Calvinst or reformed believer who claims you don't have to hear, or against faith alone, is practicing a form of hyper Calvinism.

I agree with you that faith is a must

 

[McCree79]

No, he isn't. When I quoted Hunt, I put him in quotes.
You responded once again to me:

It is Calvinism that is called into question not the epistles of Paul. You are quite presumptuous aren't you?

Again:
It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

Paul commands the Philippian jailer to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the only command that was given him in order to be saved.
He wasn't told to sit in a lotus position; wait for the mysterious, mystical, metaphysical, undefinable, and even superstitious descent of the Holy Spirit that supposedly regenerates him.
No gospel is required. No faith is required. Absolutely nothing is required. He just needs his "nirvana" (oh sorry: "regeneration").

The Bible doesn't teach such ridiculous concepts. Salvation is by faith.
Remember sola fide. What happened to it? Faith is not magical. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he fully able to perform. It is not mystical and mysterious.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
There are scores of Bible verses just like that one including John 3:16.
God does not give faith to the unregenerate.

How does Hunt view Paul's "molder" comments? How do you view those verses. No one ever wants to address them. They just make a suggestion that Calvinism doesn't have a God of love. If the plan of redemption isn't love, I don't know what is.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Faith alone. Luther taught it, along with Calvin, Sproul, Grudem, MacArthur..... It is one of the 5 Solas that drove reformers. Any Calvinst or reformed believer who claims you don't have to hear, or against faith alone, is practicing a form of hyper Calvinism.

I agree with you that faith is a must

Could you explain Sola Gracia to me then.

 

[McCree79]

No, he isn't. When I quoted Hunt, I put him in quotes.
You responded once again to me:

It is Calvinism that is called into question not the epistles of Paul. You are quite presumptuous aren't you?

Again:
It really has nothing to do with fairness.
It has to do with the promises of God: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God does not lie.
It has to do with the validity of the Great Commission. It would be invalid if only the elect were to be saved, and Unconditional Election were true.
It has to do with the propensity of the Calvinist to conveniently redefine words according to his own thought out theology--where world doesn't mean world, whosoever doesn't mean whosoever, all men doesn't mean all men, etc.

Paul commands the Philippian jailer to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the only command that was given him in order to be saved.
He wasn't told to sit in a lotus position; wait for the mysterious, mystical, metaphysical, undefinable, and even superstitious descent of the Holy Spirit that supposedly regenerates him.
No gospel is required. No faith is required. Absolutely nothing is required. He just needs his "nirvana" (oh sorry: "regeneration").

The Bible doesn't teach such ridiculous concepts. Salvation is by faith.
Remember sola fide. What happened to it? Faith is not magical. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he fully able to perform. It is not mystical and mysterious.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
There are scores of Bible verses just like that one including John 3:16.
God does not give faith to the unregenerate.

Hunt IS claiming Calvinism portraits an unfair God. That it contradicts his justice. How does election contradict election anymore than mans free will to chose Jesus? Justice is death. If one is a contradiction, so must be the other since death and God's justice is avoided. But that is not the case. It to s God's mercy that saves and that never contradicts his justice.

How does it invalidate the great commission?


You said " God does not give faith to the unregenerate " careful.....you are close to Calvinism Hunt would be upset at that. How can God judge a sinner if he withholds faith from them? You are on to something there DHK, keeping working with that idea.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's further than the record of God states it, imo. God has chosen to save His sheep via the gospel, the good news, of Jesus Christ.


1 Cor. 1:21 & 15:10,11
Romans 1:16
Eph. 1:13



I think even Acts 4:12 is applicable here....

Then carefully explain to me how it reaches the brain damaged and the children that die prior to hearing the word....or are you saying their souls don't count?

 

[McCree79]

Could you explain Sola Gracia to me then.

Sola Gratia: Grace Alone

The gift of salvation is wholly a gift from God. Man does nothing to earn it.

 

[McCree79]

Then carefully explain to me how it reaches the brain damaged and the children that die prior to hearing the word....or are you saying their souls don't count?

The age of accountability is not taught in the bible...directly anyway.

I do believe how ever that God can change the disposition of any soul at any age. John the Baptist is an example. When he heard the voice of Mary is was filled with the Holy spirit. His mind was undeveloped. He can't mentally comprehend. Yet the Holy spirit moved in him. What did the Holy Spirit do? Regenerate his soul? Change the disposition of his heart? The Holy Spirit applies the redemptive work of Christ. So, if the Holy Spirit chooses to move upon an infant....which we see in scripture He can. Who is to say the child cannot be imputed with the righteousness of Christ?
I know one has to read between the lines here....but the bible doesn't specifically address the issue. I can't prove my theory.....but it is all I got.

I know you didn't ask me....but I thought I would take a shot

 

[McCree79]

The age of accountability is not taught in the bible...directly anyway.

I do believe how ever that God can change the disposition of any soul at any age. John the Baptist is an example. When he heard the voice of Mary is was filled with the Holy spirit. His mind was undeveloped. He can't mentally comprehend. Yet the Holy spirit moved in him. What did the Holy Spirit do? Regenerate his soul? Change the disposition of his heart? The Holy Spirit applies the redemptive work of Christ. So, if the Holy Spirit chooses to move upon an infant....which we see in scripture He can. Who is to say the child cannot be imputed with the righteousness of Christ?
I know one has to read between the lines here....but the bible doesn't specifically address the issue. I can't prove my theory.....but it is all I got.

I know you didn't ask me....but I thought I would take a shot

Also, Paul states in Romans that without law sin lays dead and without the law sin is not counted. So if someone is not capable of understanding the law of God, Is he of accountability? Just an idea.

 

[convicted1]

Then carefully explain to me how it reaches the brain damaged and the children that die prior to hearing the word....or are you saying their souls don't count?

Brother McCree gave you a pretty balanced response, so I'll try my best to give you one just the same.

When all stand before Him, what are they judged by? The amount of grace given? Knowledge? Faith? No to all three? Yes. Works? Youbetchya... Now what works did an infant do that was good or evil? What knowledge did they posess? Nadda to both questions.

Now, seeing that sin, when it's finished, it brings death, if babies are born sinless, then how can they die? The non-cals say via the curse, but that duck won't waddle because what brought the curse? Sin. Then if sin brought the curse, the curse being imputed to us via Adam, then sin has to be imputed via Adam as well. That would be like saying someone had AIDS but not HIV. HIV brings AIDS, so it's impossible to have AIDS w/o first having had HIV(okay, I just found an article from 1992 that stated ~5% of AIDS cases were HIV-negative, but you get the jist of what I mean).

Now to tie this together. Babies are born at enmity with God, seeing Adam is their federal head. Grace, which includes faith, repentance, regeneration, conversion, and finally, conversion are all gifts of God. There will be no sheep left outside the fold. I, personally, never lost any sleep over a baby's eternal resting place, but the bible isn't clear on this either.

It is God who shows mercy...Romans 9:16....

 

[DHK]

DHK, you state Romans 10:17 over and ober again like we are disagreeing with that verse. FTR, even monergists believes that, or at least this monergist does.



Now, faith does come by hearing the word of God, I will never deny that. Answer this for me...when they hear the word of God, the gospel of their salvation, does faith come from the preacher's words piercing the sinner's ears of does it come from the Spirit sensitizing the soul of a man's ears?

I believe that regeneration/salvation/conversion/justification/sanctification (positional), etc. all take place at the same time. The are simultaneous. In fact we receive so much more than I mentioned at that point at the time of conversion.
However for that to happen the gospel must be heard first. One cannot be regenerated/saved without the gospel. Then faith in the gospel leads to salvation. Hence Paul commands:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

The Calvinist believes that in some mysterious way the unsaved is regenerated without ever hearing the gospel. Then through that regeneration he is given faith to believe and then it is possible for him to be saved. I believe that is nonsense.
There are some that believe, for example, that Cornelius was regenerated days before Peter ever reached him.
Or, the Eunuch was regenerated long before Philip reached the chariot,
that, Lydia was regenerated before Paul ever came to her.

These assumptions are not Biblical but are needed to prop up the TULIP assertions of Calvinism, that faith follows regeneration. It is a nonsensical premise not taught in the Bible.

 

[DHK]

McRee
You never really did answer Hunt's post, you only directed your remarks to what I posted. Try to answer Hunt's actual post.

Astonishingly, Calvinists see neither injustice nor contradiction in God foreordaining man’s sin and then punishing him for what he could not avoid doing. This extreme view of sovereignty and predestination is applied to salvation by the doctrine of Unconditional Election. Although the Bible declares clearly and repeatedly that faith is the condition for salvation (“believe…and thou shalt be saved…he that believeth not shall be damned,” etc.), Calvinism’s Unconditional Election will not even allow faith unto salvation. God simply decides to save some, called “the elect,” sovereignly regenerates them, and only thereafter gives them faith to believe on Christ, and damns the rest by His eternal decree. And God allegedly foreordains all this before He brings the doomed and damned into existence.

 

[McCree79]

DHK,

"The Calvinist believes that in some mysterious way the unsaved is regenerated without ever hearing the gospel."

That is absolutely not true. Anyone teaching that is not following teaching of Calvin, Sproul, MacArthur, Augustine.... They practice hyper Calvinism which is a perversion of the teaching and contradicts scripture.

 

[McCree79]

McRee
You never really did answer Hunt's post, you only directed your remarks to what I posted. Try to answer Hunt's actual post.

You will have to get a hyper Calvinist to answer that. That is what Hunt is referring to. He as confused the two.

Calvinists believe you have to have faith, that faith comes from God. Which you stated earlier. The predestination part is in regards to grace. By grace through faith we are saved. This is a gift from God. Calvinist believe that his grace is effectual. Accomplishing everything. It was sent out to do. It cannot and will not fall.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

"The Calvinist believes that in some mysterious way the unsaved is regenerated without ever hearing the gospel."

That is absolutely not true. Anyway teaching that is not following teaching of Calvin, Sproul, MacArthur, Augustine.... They practice hyper Calvinism which is a perversion of the teaching and contradicts scripture.

You can look up some of the quotes by the ones that you have mentioned or even of some on the board.
1. Calvinism comes as a package. Either you believe all or none. A Calvinist is one who believes in all five points.
2. Calvinism is the gospel. (The conclusion of that is non-Calvinists are not saved.)
3. As per the above, one Calvinist directly said to me, "And I will not bid you God-speed." This was in this last week.

R.C. Sproul, in Chosen by God, page 10: "A cardinal point of the Reformed theology is the maxim, 'Regeneration precedes faith.'"
It is the faith required to believe the gospel.

 

[Rebel]

You can look up some of the quotes by the ones that you have mentioned or even of some on the board.
1. Calvinism comes as a package. Either you believe all or none. A Calvinist is one who believes in all five points.
2. Calvinism is the gospel. (The conclusion of that is non-Calvinists are not saved.)
3. As per the above, one Calvinist directly said to me, "And I will not bid you God-speed." This was in this last week.

R.C. Sproul, in Chosen by God, page 10: "A cardinal point of the Reformed theology is the maxim, 'Regeneration precedes faith.'"
It is the faith required to believe the gospel.

DHK, do you not hold to any of the five points?

 

[DHK]

You will have to get a hyper Calvinist to answer that. That is what Hunt is referring to. He as confused the two.

Calvinists believe you have to have faith, that faith comes from God. Which you stated earlier. The predestination part is in regards to grace. By grace through faith we are saved. This is a gift from God. Calvinist believe that his grace is effectual. Accomplishing everything. It was sent out to do. It cannot and will not fall.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is the KJV. Look it up in your own Bible. Notice that "it is" is in italics. Those two words are not in the original, but inserted to make the sentence make sense in reading. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that faith is the gift of God given to unbelievers. It is not.
What is the gift here? It is salvation.
The subject and verb here are: You, are saved. Everything centers around those three words or the subject of salvation.

How are you saved: "through faith" an adverbial prepositional phrase modifying the verb, "are saved."
By what means are you saved: "by faith" an adverbial prepositional phrase modifying the verb "are saved."
We are saved, "not of ourselves."
Salvation is the gift of God.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is not of works.
Why? Salvation is not of works because then it would give occasion for one to boast in their works instead of in Christ.

The subject is salvation: how, "Ye are saved."
The subject is not faith.