-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Freedom (Free Will),Free Will Stopped at the Garden
- Thread starter ryarn
- Start date
- Status
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Scripture also says that believers are "slaves to righteousness," but does that in any way imply that believers can never choose to sin again? Obviously not.
I see you still did not answer the question. Still running a sideshow.
Of course not yet. We are not glorified. We still sin, but we now have a new nature. We are no longer in bondage to our sin. We have the Spirit and should be growing, sinning less and less.
First, you misrepresent what Jesus actually said.
Jn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jesus did not say that we sin because we are slaves to sin, he said the exact opposite, that when we sin we become the slaves of sin. This is very different.
Tell me, is anyone born with a cigarette in their mouth? Are they born addicted to cigarettes and this causes them to smoke? Nonsense! It is when a man chooses to start smoking that he becomes addicted to it.
The same with alcohol, is any man born with a bottle of Vodka in his hand? Of course not. But when a man freely chooses to drink, he can then become addicted and a slave of alcohol.
Your error results from listening to false doctrine and not studying scripture carefully to see what it truly says.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Nevertheless, it shows that being enslaved to something doesn't mean that we can't be influenced by a divine message appealing for us to be reconciled. After all if satan can't tempt a saint to sin, surely God is powerful enough to influence a natural man to repent, don't you think?
Paul also agreed with Jesus in Jn 8:34;
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Paul is not saying we must sin because we are slaves to sin, he says that to whom we yield ourselves servants to obey, to them we become servants or slaves.
This can be observed with all sin. Nobody is born addicted to gambling, or pornography, or any other sin. It is when a man chooses to do these sins he becomes afterward addicted to them and a slave.
You don't have to have a PhD in theology to understand this, just open your eyes.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Paul is not saying we must sin because we are slaves to sin, he says that to whom we yield ourselves servants to obey, to them we become servants or slaves.
This can be observed with all sin. Nobody is born addicted to gambling, or pornography, or any other sin. It is when a man chooses to do these sins he becomes afterward addicted to them and a slave.
You don't have to have a PhD in theology to understand this, just open your eyes.
Last edited by a moderator:
As usual, you go away from the context of the conversation. I was talking about the freedom of the will and that alone.
So what? You misrepresented what Jesus (and Paul) truly said.
Scriptures teaches;
Man freely chooses to obey sin---> Becomes a slave, Leads to death
Calvinism teaches;
Man born dead in sin with enslaved will---> Man is compelled to sin
Calvinism teaches the EXACT REVERSE of what the scriptures teach.
You can use all the doubletalk you want, your doctrine is unscriptural.
Scripture teaches a man freely and willfully sins, this leads to slavery and death.
Calvinism teaches a man is born dead and a slave, and that this leads to sin.
But you would rather follow the false doctrines of men and not scripture. That is your choice.
Last edited by a moderator:
Obviously we are not "free" to choose anything we want. But
we are free to choose whatever God Himself puts before us. If He says choose this day whom you will serve, then God has given us a choice between 2 things, serving Satan or serving God.
Some Calvinists say unsaved man does not have free will, while others like JBH will say unsaved man does have free will. But JBH's definition of free will is a logical fallacy and contradiction, because he will say the man's will is enslaved to sin. This is no freedom at all.
JBH's free will is really enslaved will.
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks for this Temple view into this matter. In this reply I'm not speaking from a "free will, or closed will", but only as to whom God is speaking to in your example. Can anyone today be included in what God said To His People?
I'm not saying you haven't answered the question to the satisfaction of some, but not to all. It is prohibitive. Have we made Covenant with God, on His request? Are we to consider ourselves to be Under the Law, and all the Ordinances that come with Their Religious Rites?
I believe we have been offered something better. To them is Do This, and I will Do That. The Gift we are offered has no such wording in it.
Perhaps to effectively answer the question, would a simple I WILL, stand the test?
I really do not understand your argument here.
Many here say that after the fall, man lost free will, or rather the ability to willingly choose to worship God. Lev 1:3 proves this false, these persons were able of their own voluntary will to offer a sacrifice to God. That is worship.
And I would not be surprised if many reject my evidence, even though it is directly from the scriptures. Many choose to believe man-made doctrine over scripture, there's nothing I can do about that.
Last edited by a moderator:
Well if i have free will then i think unsaved people shouldn't have to accept the inheritance of being born in sin because Adam's miscue and start out in paradise like Adam that would be thier choice.
Adam had no choice but to start out in the garden for GOD placed him there,Pharoah's heart was finally hardened for good by GOD after he wouldn't yield to GOD at the time.
It might seem we have choice, but the bottom line is only when we are the
LORDS then we have CHOICE. Then after being saved we choose wrongly we suffer the consequence.
See the the catagory of CHOICE is complete, we have a new nature plus we are still sinners.We can now CHOOSE one or the other! An UNSAVED Person can only make one choice THAT OF BEING SINNER.
Man's nature isn't wanting to do GODS will is it?Only one, THE GOD MAN did that!
According to Paul, many men's nature is to do the law.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
What does Paul say the Gentiles do by nature in verse 14?
What does Paul say the uncircumcision do by nature in verse 27?
You can read, you tell me, can man by nature obey God's laws?
Gotta love the lowercase "i"s!
It's OK to use a capital I. That is proper writing, God is not going to strike you down for writing properly.
In addition, humility flaunted is false humility.
- Status