Freedom of assembly, association, expression, etc.?

[Baptist Believer]

Please provide scriptural support for your position the God endorses freedom of religion. Also, if it is convenient, some documentation from a Baptist publication to help me understand what, as a Baptist, I should know/believe. Thanks for your help.

I have already done some of that in my response to JonC, but I urge you to read the eloquent address of George W. Truett from the steps of the U.S. Capitol in 1920 - Baptists and Religious Liberty

Almost every Baptist confession of faith calls for separation of church and state, and if you look for Baptist writings that predate the Moral Majority's founding, you will find near uniformity on religious liberty. It is only when Baptists joined forces with evangelicals in groups such as the Moral Majority and the Christian Coalition that the influences of the mainline churches overwhelmed Baptist convictions.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Hmmm. Seems you disagree with the founders. I agree with them, the "white" part should have been left out.

I'm looking at our history since the Declaration of Independence was written. Do you believe we've held to the objectives of that document? we fought a civil war about whether blacks were slaves and then they really didn't get much freedom until the 1960's.The SBC didn't renounce its support for slavery until 1995. Women weren't equal either. They didn't get the vote until 1920 with the passage of the 19th amendment. Many people, especially the far right Neo-Nazi's and white supremacists still consider blacks and Hispanics to be inferior to whites. Now tell me about all men being equal in America.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Apparently for you its about supporting the godless child slaughtering party.

Your view of religion is tainted with the combination of religion and politics. This is a false gospel and Jesus always rejected forming an earthly kingdom. Maybe you missed that part in Sunday school.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I have already done some of that in my response to JonC, but I urge you to read the eloquent address of George W. Truett from the steps of the U.S. Capitol in 1920 - Baptists and Religious Liberty

Almost every Baptist confession of faith calls for separation of church and state, and if you look for Baptist writings that predate the Moral Majority's founding, you will find near uniformity on religious liberty. It is only when Baptists joined forces with evangelicals in groups such as the Moral Majority and the Christian Coalition that the influences of the mainline churches overwhelmed Baptist convictions.

The document, Baptists and Religious Liberty, is a document "committed to historic Baptist & Reformed beliefs". The Baptist churches I identify with are not in the reformed camp. Additionally, the document has no scriptural references to support any of its positions.

Finally, the Baptist churches with which I identify adhere to no "confession".

While religious liberty/freedom is widely promoted and accepted by men, it is not a Biblical principle.

Jhn 14:6 KJV - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Sounds narrow-minded - no?




history

documents

library

biography

 

[Squire Robertsson]

By religious liberty, if you asked my Baptist Polity professor the late Dr. Richard Weeks of MBBC (now MBU) he would say it means as Baptists we do not want nor seek the power of the State to enforce religious beliefs.

I believe Dr. Weeks would be against what Leonard Verduin described as Sacral:

"bound together by a common religious loyalty.” By sacral society, we mean society held together by a religion to which all the members of that society are committed."​

Both men would agree that in Heaven there is no religious liberty.

 

[Reynolds]

Absolutely that statement was untrue but you have to complete it. "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal...
That should have read "all white men (excluding indigenous peoples, poor men and women) from Europe.

No, you have to interpret history through the eyes of that era in time. They did not need to say all "white" people because that was a given. Most at that time did not view colored races as people. They were viewed as sub- human.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The document, Baptists and Religious Liberty, is a document "committed to historic Baptist & Reformed beliefs".

You are confusing the website's goals with the historic document. I do not think Truett was reformed, but I am open to correction. Truett was the pastor of First Baptist Church, Dallas.

While religious liberty/freedom is widely promoted and accepted by men, it is not a Biblical principle.

I referenced scripture in my extremely brief response to JonC, I referenced both the creation story (Genesis 1-2), the fall (Genesis 3) and Jesus' teaching about the separate authorities of God and Caesar (Luke 20:21-26). I didn't put down the scripture references because those passages are so familiar, I thought I would insult everyone involved by doing it.

If you are open to seeing religious liberty in the scripture, it leaps out at you. Would it be good news to you if it were true? If so, I will look for an online resource that can walk you through all of the most relevant scriptures.

Jhn 14:6 KJV - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Sounds narrow-minded - no?

No.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Both men would agree that in Heaven there is no religious liberty.

When we are in the heavens with the Lord before the resurrection, and then upon the reunified heavens and earth for eternity, there will be no need of religious liberty since all those who live will be willing worshippers of God in spirit and truth.

 

[Revmitchell]

You demanded I define "alt-right" (which is at best a vague term),

I am not going to get into the "define the alt right" foolishness

yea most people avoid it since it is nothing more than a pejorative.

 

[Baptist Believer]

yea most people avoid it since it is nothing more than a pejorative.

He also calls himself a "deplorable" and an "infidel" (apparently, what he thinks a Muslim would say about him). He's not the sharpest guy out there.

 

[Reynolds]

He also calls himself a "deplorable" and an "infidel" (apparently, what he thinks a Muslim would say about him). He's not the sharpest guy out there.

"Infidel" now means Christian to many people. Most of the returning soldiers around here have"infidel" stickers on their trucks and some have "infidel" tattoos. Word meanings evolve.

 

[Baptist Believer]

"Infidel" now means Christian to many people. Most of the returning soldiers around here have"infidel" stickers on their trucks and some have "infidel" tattoos. Word meanings evolve.

I understand that. I was simply pointing out that he calls himself several different things. He's a "Word of Faith" charismatic who doesn't know much about the Bible or the call of Jesus. He's also not a veteran.

And "alt-right", at least to me, is not a slur or derogatory term. Just a loose category of people of widely varying perspectives that gravitate toward the Alex Jones and Breitbart conspiracy views. I usually strongly disagree with their conclusions, but I understand and empathize with many of their concerns.

 

[FollowTheWay]

No, you have to interpret history through the eyes of that era in time. They did not need to say all "white" people because that was a given. Most at that time did not view colored races as people. They were viewed as sub- human.

They have been viewed as subhuman for a long time since as I described. How about your view? Are blacks inferior to whites?

 

[Reynolds]

They have been viewed as subhuman for a long time since as I described. How about your view? Are blacks inferior to whites?

My honest view. My race, Creek/Cherokee Native American, is the superior race. That's known as "Native pride." The reason I believe that is that we are an extremely mixed race of people. Our DNA is extremely diverse. I believe the more pure a race is, the weaker it is genetically.

 

[Revmitchell]

My honest view. My race, Creek/Cherokee Native American, is the superior race. That's known as "Native pride." The reason I believe that is that we are an extremely mixed race of people. Our DNA is extremely diverse. I believe the more pure a race is, the weaker it is genetically.

My family is also creek/cherokee

 

[Reynolds]

My family is also creek/cherokee

Were relatives. Maybe that's why I like you.

 

[rsr]

Please return to the OP, please.

 

[Revmitchell]

Were relatives. Maybe that's why I like you.

Yes quite a few of them.

 

[rsr]

The document, Baptists and Religious Liberty, is a document "committed to historic Baptist & Reformed beliefs". The Baptist churches I identify with are not in the reformed camp

Religious liberty has been championed by Baptists of all soteriologies.

Thomas Helwys, a General Baptist, espoused it at the very beginning of recorded English Baptist history.

"For we do freely profess that our lord the king has no more power over their consciences than over ours, and that is none at all. For our lord the king is but an earthly king, and he has no authority as a king but in earthly causes. And if the king’s people be obedient and true subjects, obeying all human laws made by the king, our lord the king can require no more. For men’s religion to God is between God and themselves. The king shall not answer for it. Neither may the king be judge between God and man. Let them be heretics, Turks, Jews, or whatsoever, it appertains not to the earthly power to punish them in the least measure. This is made evident to our lord the king by the scriptures."
— A Short Declaration of The Mystery of Iniquity, 1612

John Leland, a Calvinist, championed freedom of religion and had a hand in convincing Madison that the First Amendment was necessary to prevent establishment of state religion.

"Yes, from the beginning of Christianity, down to the close of the eighteenth century, A.D. it never prevailed among a people, of any considerable consequence, but they would either punish or pamper it almost to death: either to proscribe it, or make it a principle of state policy. To say that the government of the United States is perfect would be arrogant; but I have no hesitancy in saying, that the Constitution has left religion infallibly where it should be left in all government, viz: in the hands of its author, as a matter between God and individuals; leaving an open door for Pagans, Turks, Jews, or Christians, to fill any office in the government, without any religious test, to make them hypocrites: securing to every man his right of argument and free debate: not considering religious opinions objects of civil government, or any ways under its control: duly appreciating that Christianity is not a scheme of coercion; but only calls for a patient hearing, a dispassionate examination and a rational faith."

You want proof texts; Baptists have drawn the inference from their understanding of God and man and the witness of the New Testament. We will, one day, give account to God for ourselves. The state will not stand before judgment, but individuals, and the state has no right to interpose itself between God and man in such a serious matter.

I have to ask why someone who calls himself a Baptist would think that enforced religion is a virtue. The colonial American Baptists were exiled, whipped and thrown into prison because they ran afoul of the Congregationalist and Anglicans.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Religious liberty has been championed by Baptists of all soteriologies.

Thomas Helwys, a General Baptist, espoused it at the very beginning of recorded English Baptist history.

"For we do freely profess that our lord the king has no more power over their consciences than over ours, and that is none at all. For our lord the king is but an earthly king, and he has no authority as a king but in earthly causes. And if the king’s people be obedient and true subjects, obeying all human laws made by the king, our lord the king can require no more. For men’s religion to God is between God and themselves. The king shall not answer for it. Neither may the king be judge between God and man. Let them be heretics, Turks, Jews, or whatsoever, it appertains not to the earthly power to punish them in the least measure. This is made evident to our lord the king by the scriptures."
— A Short Declaration of The Mystery of Iniquity, 1612

John Leland, a Calvinist, championed freedom of religion and had a hand in convincing Madison that the First Amendment was necessary to prevent establishment of state religion.

"Yes, from the beginning of Christianity, down to the close of the eighteenth century, A.D. it never prevailed among a people, of any considerable consequence, but they would either punish or pamper it almost to death: either to proscribe it, or make it a principle of state policy. To say that the government of the United States is perfect would be arrogant; but I have no hesitancy in saying, that the Constitution has left religion infallibly where it should be left in all government, viz: in the hands of its author, as a matter between God and individuals; leaving an open door for Pagans, Turks, Jews, or Christians, to fill any office in the government, without any religious test, to make them hypocrites: securing to every man his right of argument and free debate: not considering religious opinions objects of civil government, or any ways under its control: duly appreciating that Christianity is not a scheme of coercion; but only calls for a patient hearing, a dispassionate examination and a rational faith."

You want proof texts; Baptists have drawn the inference from their understanding of God and man and the witness of the New Testament. We will, one day, give account to God for ourselves. The state will not stand before judgment, but individuals, and the state has no right to interpose itself between God and man in such a serious matter.

I have to ask why someone who calls himself a Baptist would think that enforced religion is a virtue. The colonial American Baptists were exiled, whipped and thrown into prison because they ran afoul of the Congregationalist and Anglicans.

To me freedom of religion means just that. Freedom to worship any deity that the mind of man can conceive. How can a professing Christian nation endorse such a policy? I am addressing the statement in the DOI not the constitution.

I regret that I lead you to understand that I condone enforced religion.

I obviously need to improve my communication skills. Thank you for sharing your view.