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Freemasonry vs. Christianity

Jacob Webber

New Member
Pledge: To make a solemn binding promise; swear.

Vow: swearing to the truth of a statement

I did not think it necessary to post more deffinitions but again according to the dictionary Pledge and Vowing is the same as swearing. They do mean the same thing. To Promise.

When you Pledge Allegance it is to one nation under God. You are saying you will fight for this NAtion who is under God's Rule. Thus you are Pledging as God as you witness to the Nation of which He is over.

As a Mason you Promise as God as your witness not to knowing reveil the secrets of Freemasonry. The penalty following the Obligation is a reminder of what happened to those who were tourtured for being a Freemason.
 

Jacob Webber

New Member
Obligation: A social, legal, or moral requirement, such as a duty, contract, or promise that compels one to follow or avoid a particular course of action. The act of binding oneself by a social, legal, or moral tie.

Most Masons I know call it an Obligations not sure if this helps thou.
 

Bro Tony

New Member
Jacob

Well we have beat this horse to death and neither one of us is going to change our minds. As always I do appreciate your spirit as we discuss these things. I don't agree with you and I worry about you, but I appreciate you as well.

Bro Tony
 
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frewtloop

Guest
One of those little-known facts of the NT: words are not always interpreted and/or expressed with the full thrust of meaning from the original. Thus it is, we have words that carry much the same denotation, yet are interpreted very differently. An example:

2171 euche yoo-khay' from 2172; properly, a wish, expressed as a petition to God, or in votive obligation:--prayer, vow.
There we go now, we've got "obligation" and "prayer" and "vow" on the same page. So James was saying, in essence, "The fervent, effectual vow of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16). Not sure exactly what this indicates in the case of Elijah and him "praying" that it would not rain. Since the verse begins with "confess your faults," it could be indicating a prayerful vow to forsake a particular sin, one which might have led to the illness.

One commentary on the subject:

Was it proper for Paul to do this? Since Paul was a strong believer in salvation by grace, we cannot condemn him for this. The Nazarite vow was a voluntary matter and no one looked to this as a part of the plan of salvation. Remember Paul before his conversion lived by the ceremonial law. If he, before his conversion had been accustomed to make holy vows and to wear his hair long for a season until the vow was completed, it would not be amiss now, if his vow were a holy one, to have some set sign between him and God. However, such actions are not commanded, called for, nor inferred as proper conduct for us today.
( http://www.fbinstitute.com/acts/18.htm )
The voluntary nature of it is emphasized here, that it is not of command. No conflict with Freemasonry on that point, very specific in making sure of the "of my own free will and accord" part.

But what about what Jesus said? The word used there appears only once that I can find:

1964 epiorkeo ep-ee-or-keh'-o from 1965; to commit perjury:--forswear self.
"You have heard it said of old, do not forswear thyself (commit perjury), but perform unto the Lord thine oaths."

But in the following verse, when He says "do not swear at all," He immediately follows it with a list of things to swear by: not by heaven, not by the earth, not by Jerusalem, not by your head. The word in Greek signifies "to take or declare on." In other words, an object is appealed to as though it held some sway in the thing promised. A lot of common English expressions have arisen from this very practice: "by golly," (euphemism for God), "by George," "by cracky," "by jiminy," and a host of others.

The whole idea expressed in His comments about things sworn by seems to indicate this practice of adding force to one's declarations, especially when He follows it with "let your yes be yes, and your no be no." That's a far different idea than solemnly and prayerfully vowing or committing undertakings to God.
 

Jacob Webber

New Member
Bro Tony could you provide input on these verses.


Hebrews 7:20God took an oath that Christ would always be a priest, but he never did this for any other priest. 21Only to Jesus did he say,

"The Lord has taken an oath
and will not break his vow:
`You are a priest forever.' "[4]
22Because of God's oath, it is Jesus who guarantees the effectiveness of this better covenant.
 

Bro Tony

New Member
"Bro. Tony" seems to be indisposed at the moment.
As I said earlier some things came up. I have been taking care of my father who suffered a stroke. So Mr. Worm don't assume things you do not know.

Jacob,

I just stopped by the web now because I haven't been home since Thursday morning. I will try to answer your question on Monday morning, right now I have to get ready for services tomorrow. I would appreciate your prayers as we try to take care of my father.

Bro Tony
 

Bro Tony

New Member
Thanks all, and I must apologize to the Worm, although we are miles apart in our thinking, it was in another thread that I said I had to leave for something urgent, it was not appropriate for me to snap at you that way. Please forgive.

Everyone have a great day in Jesus tomorrow.

Bro Tony
 

O.F.F.

New Member
Mr. Worm said:

No, the real mystery is, how someone can be so critical and condemning and be so blind as to consider such behavior Christian. Not that I doubt that you are Christian, just that your actions so far have been IMO questionable.
I am man (human) enough to admit that my actions and words are not always as Christian as I would like them to be. Like most of us, my flesh gets in the way at times.

But the real mystery to me is, how a Christian pastor can be so bold and arrogant to think that some members of the Body of Christ are so blind to the wool he is trying to pull over our eyes and consider such behavior Christian. Not that I doubt that you are Christian, just that your actions so far have been IMO extraordinarily questionable. As a result, your credibility is shot and I really don't think anyone here really values your opinion.

O.F.F.
 
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frewtloop

Guest
Thanks all, and I must apologize to the Worm, although we are miles apart in our thinking, it was in another thread that I said I had to leave for something urgent, it was not appropriate for me to snap at you that way. Please forgive.
No apologies necessary, the remark was not intended to offend, though in hindsight I easily see why it was taken that way. Sorry to hear about your Father, you and he both have my prayers.
 
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frewtloop

Guest
The title of this thread is an oxymoron, a false dichotomy in which many people would have others believe the two are at odds. Freemasonry is allegorical and symbolic, and when accused on the basis of literal interpretation of symbolic elements, it is accused falsely. Albert Pike was one person who knew as well as anyone its symbolic nature, and he also knew not only the general interpretation of symbols for all of Freemasonry, he also understood and discussed in detail the specific interpretation of those symbols for the Christian. In Morals & Dogma , he very clearly discusses the symbolism found in the first three degrees of Masonry, and the significance as they are applied from a Christian viewpoint:

Before we enter upon the final lesson of Masonic Philosophy, we will delay a few moments to repeat to you the Christian interpretations of the Blue Degrees.


In the First Degree, they said, there are three symbols to be applied.

1st. Man, after the fall, was left naked and defenceless against the just anger of the Deity. Prone to evil, the human race staggered blindly onward into the thick darkness of unbelief, bound fast by the strong cable-tow of the natural and sinful will. Moral corruption was followed by physical misery. Want and destitution invaded the earth. War and Famine and Pestilence filled up the measure of evil, and over the sharp flints of misfortune and wretchedness man toiled with naked and bleeding feet. This condition of blindness, destitution, misery, and bondage, from which to save the world the Redeemer came, is symbolized by the condition of the candidate, when he is brought up for the first time to the door of the Lodge.

2d. Notwithstanding the death of the Redeemer, man can be saved only by faith, repentance, and reformation. To repent, he must feel the sharp sting of conscience and remorse, like a sword piercing his bosom. His confidence in his guide, whom he is told to follow and fear no danger; his trust in God, which he is caused to profess; and the point of the sword that is pressed against his naked left breast over the heart, are symbolical of the faith, repentance and reformation necessary to bring him to the light of a life in Christ the Crucified.

3d. Having repented and reformed, and bound himself to the service of God by a firm promise and obligation, the light of Christian hope shines down into the darkness of the heart of the humble penitent, and blazes upon his pathway to Heaven. And this is symbolized by the candidate's being brought to light, after he is obligated, by the Worshipful Master, who in that is a symbol of the Redeemer, and so brings him to light, with the help of the brethren, as He taught the Word with the aid of the Apostles.
 
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frewtloop

Guest
PART TWO:

In the Second Degree there are two symbols:

4th. The Christian assumes new duties toward God and his fellows. Toward God, of love, gratitude, and veneration, and an anxious desire to serve and glorify Him; toward his fellows, of kindness, sympathy, and justice. And this assumption of duty this entering upon good works, is symbolized by the Fellow-Craft's obligation; by which, bound as an apprentice to secrecy merely, and set in the Northeast corner of the Lodge, he descends as a Fellow-Craft into the body of the brethren, and assumes the active duties of a good Mason.

5th. The Christian, reconciled to God, sees the world in a new light. This great Universe is no longer a mere machine, wound up and set going six thousand or sixty millions years ago, and left to run on afterward forever, by virtue of a law of mechanics created at the beginning, without further care or consideration on the part of the Deity; but it has now become to him a great emanation from God, the product of His thought, not a mere dead machine, but a thing of life, over which God watches continually, and every movement of which is immediately produced by His present action, the law of harmony being the essence of the Deity, re-enacted every instant. And this is symbolized by the imperfect instruction given in the Fellow-Craft's Degree, in the sciences, and particularly geometry, connected as the latter is with God Himself in the mind of a Mason, because the same letter, suspended in the East, represents both; and astronomy, or the knowledge of the laws of motion and harmony that govern the spheres, is but a portion of the wider science of geometry. It is so symbolized, because it is here, in the Second Degree, that the candidate first receives an other than moral instruction.

There are also two symbols in the Third Degree, which, with the 3 in the first, and 2 in the second, make the 7.

6th. The candidate, after passing through the first part of the ceremony, imagines himself a Master; and is surprised to be informed that as yet he is not, and that it is uncertain whether he ever will be. He is told of a difficult and dangerous path yet to be travelled, and is advised that upon that journey it depends whether he will become a Master. This is symbolical of that which our Saviour said to Nicodemus, that, notwithstanding his morals might be beyond reproach, he could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless he were born again; symbolically dying, and again entering the world regenerate, like a spotless infant.

7th. The murder of Hiram, his burial, and his being raised again by the Master, are symbols, both of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer; and of the death and burial in sins of the natural man, and his being raised again to a new life, or born again, by the direct action of the Redeemer; after Morality (symbolized by the Entered Apprentice's grip), and Philosophy (symbolized by the grip of the Fellow-Craft), had failed to raise him. That of the Lion of the House of Judah is the strong grip, never to be broken, with which Christ, of the royal line of that House, has clasped to Himself the whole human race, and embraces them in His wide arms as closely and affectionately as brethren embrace each other on the five points of fellowship.

As Entered Apprentices and Fellow-Crafts, Masons are taught to imitate the laudable example of those Masons who labored at the building of King Solomon's Temple; and to plant firmly and deep in their hearts those foundation-stones of principle, truth, justice, temperance, fortitude, prudence, and charity, on which to erect that Christian character which all the storms of misfortune and all the powers and temptations of Hell shall not prevail against; those feelings and noble affections which are the most proper homage that can be paid to the Grand Architect and Great Father of the Universe, and which make the heart a living temple builded to Him: when the unruly passions are made to submit to rule and measurement, and their excesses are struck off with the gavel of self-restraint; and when every action and every principle is accurately corrected and adjusted by the square of wisdom, the level of humility, and the plumb of justice.

The two columns, Jachin and Boaz, are the symbols of that profound faith and implicit trust in God and the Redeemer that are the Christian's strength; and of those good works by which alone that faith can be established and made operative and effectual to salvation.

The three pillars that support the Lodge are symbols of a Christian's HOPE in a future state of happiness; FAITH in the promises and the divine character and mission of the Redeemer; and CHARITABLE JUDGMENT of other men.

The three murderers of Khir-Om symbolize Pontius Pilate, Caiaphas the High-Priest, and Judas Iscariot: and the three blows given him are the betrayal by the last, the refusal of Roman protection by Pilate, and the condemnation by the High-Priest. They also symbolize the blow on the ear, the scourging, and the crown of thorns. The twelve fellow-crafts sent in search of the body are the twelve disciples, in doubt whether to believe that the Redeemer would rise from the dead.

The Master's word, supposed to be lost, symbolizes the Christian faith and religion, supposed to have been crushed and destroyed when the Saviour was crucified, after Iscariot had betrayed Him, and Peter deserted Him, and when the other disciples doubted whether He would arise from the dead; but which rose from His tomb and flowed rapidly over the civilized world; and so that which was supposed to be lost was found. It symbolizes also the Saviour Himself; the WORD that was in the beginning--that was with God, and that was God; the Word of life, that was made flesh and dwelt among us, and was supposed to be lost, while He lay in the tomb, for three days, and His disciples "as yet knew not the scripture that He must rise again from the dead," and doubted when they heard of it, and were amazed and frightened and still doubted when He appeared among them.

The bush of acacia placed at the head of the grave of Khir-Om is an emblem of resurrection and immortality.

Such are the explanations of our Christian brethren; entitled, like those of all other Masons, to a respectful consideration. (Morals and Dogma, p. 638-42)
 

O.F.F.

New Member
To all,

It is interesting to note that the "Worm" continues to show evidence in his posts that he is in fact the Masonic "Rev" we suspect him to be. His past two posts are similar to ones he posts on the discussion board of Ex-Masons for Jesus at: http://www.ephesians5-11.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/kunk/discus/discus.cgi?pg=topics, using the pseudonym "Rev" Wayne under such topics as "The Masonic Concept of God," "Masonic Teachings Concerning Salvation" and others. Feel free to visit and read his posts there and you will soon discover that this person sounds very much like "The Worm."

He is as fond of quoting Albert Pike there, to put forth his "symbolic" argument in defense of Freemasonry, as he is here. If fact he often uses some of the exact same quotes.

Recently under his other pseudonym he said the following:

You are asking for a specificity that does not exist in the language of symbol. Symbolic language, dealing as it does with images, is an indefinite language even when dealing with the definiteness of a specific group; it would be even more indefinite in a system which is encompassing several groups with common symbolic themes. Your insistence that it be specifically Christian is a demand that Freemasonry exhibit the false appearance of being specifically Christian, which it is not. The symbols are not going to exhibit to perfection, on demand, every single detail you will require of it before you will accept the fact that it may be interpreted in a Christian venue.
My question to him is; if Freemasonry is so "symbolic" rather than "specific" why is he trying to convince us with Pike quotes that it is so Christian? If Freemasonry's "symbolism" can be interpreted to include images across a variety of religions throughout the world, then we as Christians should avoid it entirely. All other religions are false according to Scripture and the bible says that since they don't represent truth they are evil. As Christians, we are told in God's Word to abstain from and avoid all appearance and anything remotely symbolic of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:22)

If, for example, Freemasonry can be viewed by a Hindu as Hinduism or by a Muslim as Islamic, and by a fellower of Jesus as Christian all at the same time, then I would argue that it's symbolism is purposely designed to create syncretism: "The combination or reconciliation of differing beliefs or practices in religion, philosophy, etc., or an attempt to effect such compromise." Therefore, in my opinion, it is a deceptive counterfeit that Christians should avoid. In my view, such philosophy is Satan's subtle way of creating universalism among conflicting faiths and religions. Yet the Worm would argue:
The detail you fail to recognize is the idea that Freemasonry uses universal in the sense that it teaches principles that are the same across all religions. That is very different than "reconciliation of differing beliefs" or "union of two or more opposite beliefs."
Biblical truth should urge Christians to disagree with Freemasonry.

Mike Gentry
An Ex-Mason for Jesus
 

O.F.F.

New Member
To all who may be interested in attending:

The details for the 14th annual Ministry to Masons Conference have been finalized. It will take place at Evangelistic Ministries Church in Jacksonville, Arkansas on September 17th and 18th, 2004. Jacksonville is located twelve miles Northeast of Little Rock. Evangelistic Ministries Church is located at 101 N. Elm Street in Jacksonville.

The 2004 conference will examine Freemasonry and seek to answer the question, "Does Freemasonry honor God?" This conference is FREE and open to the public. Local church leaders and members, as well as the general public are encouraged to attend. Masons are also welcome to attend. There is no registration fee, or attendance fee. Registration is not required, non-reserved seating is available on a first come, first seated basis.

For more information on the speakers, the topics they are presenting, directions to the conference, etc., please click here:

http://www.ephesians5-11.org/pdf/flyer_2004.pdf

Mike Gentry
Order of Former Freemasons
 
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frewtloop

Guest
So many rules were broken in this post the whole thing was deleted.
No posting things knowingly false,
no personal attacks,
no invasions of another poster's privacy,
show grace to other posters
No posting slander
Etc..

[ July 31, 2004, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
 
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frewtloop

Guest
If Freemasonry's "symbolism" can be interpreted to include images across a variety of religions throughout the world, then we as Christians should avoid it entirely
Then we shall have to abandon the most important one of all, the Cross. After all, it has been found in the symbology of quite a few other religions. A serpent on a cross was common in Egypt. A cross within a circle within a crescent was associated with Mercury, and became an emblem of the Supreme Deity. Some of the Druid temples found in Ireland and Scotland were built in the shape of a cross. Priests of Horus had their vestments covered with crosses. Plato said, "The next Power to the Supreme God was decussated or figured in the shape of a Cross on the Universe." It has also figured in the religious systems of Assyria, India, Persia, and others. Buddha is said to have died upon it, Krishna was said to have expired on a cross, pierced with arrows.

So by your reckoning, are we to then give up the single most enduring symbol of Christendom, simply because it is an image that has been interpreted "across a variety of religions throughout the world?"

TheWorm
 

O.F.F.

New Member
Worm,

Given your argument, is that why the Grand Lodge of Kentucky can say the following:

“All antiquity solved the enigma of the existence of evil by supposing the existence of a Principle of Evil, of demons…A Siva…or a Satan…All believed in a future life…in a Mediator or Redeemer…Hindus called him Krishna…the Egyptians, Horus…the Scandinavians, Balder; the Christians, Jesus; Masons, Hiram.”

Kentucky Monitor, 5th-15th editions, pages 14 & 15
As for abandoning the Cross:
So by your reckoning, are we to then give up the single most enduring symbol of Christendom, simply because it is an image that has been interpreted "across a variety of religions throughout the world?"
No Worm, there is only ONE Cross that matters; that is the Cross of Jesus Christ. All others are meaningless counterfeits. Like Freemasonry, they are just an illusion, not the real thing. I never implied abandoning the Cross of Christ.

Instead, I am suggesting that Christians abandon the world's largest cult--Freemasonry. Also, we should not listen to those who would try to defend it. If we do, we need to proceed with caution and be armed with the truth of God's Word.

Mike
 
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