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Freemasonry vs. Christianity

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by O.F.F., Jul 11, 2004.

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  1. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    The Worm's confession posted at "The Ministry OF Masons" (M.O.M.) Masonic discussion forum at:

    http://p081.ezboard.com/fmomministryofmasonsfrm39.showMessage?topicID=59.topic

    Where he/she says in part:

    Then he/she goes on with what appears to be a bunch of "whistle blowing" nonsense, but finally makes the following confession:

    While it is still unclear who "The Worm" really is, as "Rev" Wayne is guilty of creating multiple screen names on one discussion board and even caught posting messages to himself, one thing is certain now; by his/her own confession we can see "The Worm" has been deceptive, and has collaborated with Masons to deceive members here at the BaptistBoard.com.

    What a miserable shame. Is this her/his way of defending the indefensible? Is this the example of an honorable woman (assuming she is a separate person to begin with)? As for the Masons involved, is this an example of honor of their so called "honorable fraternity?" Is this an example and representation we can expect of a United Methodist minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ? This is utterly shameful. Yet they all feel justified, even rationalizing deliberate deception as "playing with Mike's head" and "intentionally frustrating stuff."

    I know many of you were probably tired of my ranting on about this fraud called "The Worm" but now that the truth has been told, you can see my suspicions were pretty accurate. I will now proceed in participating in the discussion here and hopefully add value to the debate, since this distraction has finally been uncovered.

    Mike Gentry
    An Ex-Mason for Jesus
    Order of Former Freemasons

    [ August 01, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: O.F.F. ]
     
    #61 O.F.F., Aug 1, 2004
  2. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    Speaking of the Religion of Freemasonry:

    Christian Mason, you are now faced with a very simple question. Given the fact that membership in and financial support of an organization is tantamount to helping that organization spread its teachings, how can you NOT see why a Christian should not join or remain in Masonry? Or are you so determined to remain in denial that you don't even care that you are helping to propagate the esoteric religion of Freemasonry while you remain in the Masonic Lodge?

    Mike Gentry
    Will you be O.F.F. or from?
     
    #62 O.F.F., Aug 1, 2004
  3. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    I wouldent be to quick to call the pot black Mike, your own attitude is one that has given some intersting responses, and not neccessaraly in a positive manner either.

    What is the point of hammering at one another? Does it actually achieve anything anyway?

    Lets stick to the facts of the discussion at hand, that way we can consider exactly what the subject matter is rather than ad hominum attacks. [​IMG]
     
    #63 Ben W, Aug 2, 2004
  4. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    Ben,

    If you go to the link I provide above, the "Rev Wayne" himself has admitted to the deception.

    To a certain degree you are right, but when I see a fraud, especially one who hides behind a Masonic Apron with the title "Rev" and deliberately attempts to deceive the very saints to whom he has vowed to protect and lead to Christ, I am going to call him on it--every time it happens.

    You can call it "attitude," but I am sure that some of the saints here, along with the moderators, would agree it's actually called--spiritual discernment--rendered by the grace of God.

    May He be glorified, not me, and certainly NOT Freemasonry or anyone in it.

    Sincerely in Christ,

    Mike Gentry
     
    #64 O.F.F., Aug 2, 2004
  5. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Mike,

    I would like to apoogise to you for the "pot black" remark, once I had posted it I realised that it was not a very Christian thing to say, and that getting into stuff like that, I become what I oppose in others.

    You obviously have many issues with the Freemasons, I on the other hand have got to like the Freemasons, hence it makes it pretty difficult for us to have a discussion on what we both really think. Both of us have formed these opinions from carefull study, probably Mike, the view that we both have is slanted to what we want to see. Yet then again, that is what these discussion boards are about. Yet I want to be really clear that although we disagree, I would like it to be recognised that it is not personal.

    As far as all the Freemason threads that we have had, if we as the whole Baptist Board, can keep the animosity out, I think we could have quite a good discussion on it.
     
    #65 Ben W, Aug 2, 2004
  6. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Ben, oddly enough it was a Mason, or a Mason's wife, that made the best argument AGAINST Masonry.
    Lies and deception were the accusation against it, and somebody lied and deceived to convince people it was right?
    Bad move.
    You're a long standing and trusted member Ben. People will give you credit for what you say, but I can guarantee you that any new members who come on here and try to defend Masonry will not be taken seriously, because everyone will wonder if the Worm is back, or how many of his/her buddies from other boards have seen what happened and want to come on here and "mess with people's heads" some more.
    So, here is what I propose. You and Gentry discuss it in a thread alone, one on one. It will be asked that nobody else post on that particular thread.
    If both of you are up to this, let me know and I will start it.
    Gina
     
    #66 Gina B, Aug 2, 2004
  7. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Gina
    Will I also be able to post on the thread as well. I would like to see what info may be presented and what I may present as well. I will gladly offer what I know and listen as well.
     
    #67 Jacob Webber, Aug 2, 2004
  8. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    BTW this wouldn't take the place of other threads on the topic or prevent new ones from being started, it simply seems like a neat idea to have a balanced and structured debate on it. There would be a couple mutually agreed on rules, such as one person starts the thread, and then the other side has 48 hours to post their full reply, then back to the first person who has 48 hours also. All sources used should be documented.
    Webber, I'm not sure how well it would work out with more than two people, but I'm sure something could be worked out. How do you think it would be best to do this? Perhaps it could even be two one on one debates in the same thread, if someone wants to go up against you. Like it would be Ben and Mike, and you and...fill in the blank. I don't know. I didn't really think it out. LOL Help me! :D
    Gina
     
    #68 Gina B, Aug 2, 2004
  9. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Well Gina in my honest opnion the best way to do it is to block the users when they get a little out of hand. Not permently but maybe for 48hrs or 72hrs. You can still open the board to all but be firm when someone gets out of hand.

    How about this let Mike and Ben W. Control the debate if someone whats to inject something of intrest ask for permission from Mike, Ben W, or Gina. Since it will be Mike and Ben W debate. And perhaps at the end when all is said between Mike and Ben open the debate to the rest for statements if someone gets out of hand delete their post and block them.

    I do not agree with Mike about Freemasonry, But I believe everyone must see the Pro Masonic and Anti Masonic sides of the issue so that they may draw their own conclusion on the issue. It is just like everything else you must look at both sides of the issue. All I ask that if you post something from some Masonic source that you post all of it and the explaintion. Please be fair and balanced.
     
    #69 Jacob Webber, Aug 2, 2004
  10. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Ok, I get what you're saying. That might work, you can balance both of them. So the three of you.
    I can't keep others from posting if they're not breaking any rules, but I figured that if asked not to or at least to not come onto the thread without anything to truly offer, most people would be ok with that. If not and they're being disruptive they can simply be ignored.
    Gina
     
    #70 Gina B, Aug 2, 2004
  11. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Sorry to be the weak link in the chain here, but I am not real keen on that idea. As much as I favour stuff that goes on in Freemason circles, I dont know enough about it to start defending it properly. In Australia the lodges are "York Rite" whereas in the U.S.A they are mostly "Scottish Rite" which is another kind of thing altogether. It is often stated by some that the York Rite is more "Christian" Yet I cant say if that is actually the case.

    The BB should be free for all to comment, it is not such a good idea to restrict people from having their say. One suggestion that I could make though, is that "Theology Forums" has a one on one debate forum which we could link to, the idea is that you decide who goes first, you get three posts of varying lengths to make your point. Having never done one I am not sure if it can be voted on or not as to who has won it.

    My suggestion then could also be that the managment of the BB consider opening a similar forum based along the same lines, three posts of set lengths to make your point. That way people could work stuff out of their system without having to go 15 pages on the same old same old. [​IMG]
     
    #71 Ben W, Aug 3, 2004
  12. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Head on up to the General Baptist Discussion forum, I have floated the idea there, lets see what we get back!
     
    #72 Ben W, Aug 3, 2004
  13. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Ben

    Just a note Freemasonry in USA started from the York Rite. The Ritual is pulled formt the York Rite as well.
     
    #73 Jacob Webber, Aug 3, 2004
  14. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    Ben,

    Your apology accepted.

    I don't recall if you were ever a Mason, but my position against the Lodge is based upon my firsthand experience as a Mason. It's not about being against any individual involved in Freemasonry, it's about the heretical teachings of the Masonic Order.

    If you really did a careful and honest analysis of what is taught in the Lodge about God, His Word and how one gets to heaven, you would have discovered that the teachings of the Masonic Order violate the gospel of Jesus Christ. Anyone who would sympathesize with an organization, for any reason, that teaches things against God's Word is taking sides with the kingdom of darkness whether they believe they are or not. To say that Freemasonry is good because Masons do good things ignores the real issue.

    It's the teachings of Freemasonry that is the problem, not necessarily Freemasons themselves, unless they defend their teachings. However, given the fact that their membership in and financial support of an organization is tantamount to helping that organization spread its teachings, active members of Freemasonry contribute to the problem, not the solution.

    Ben, you cannot refute an argument against heresy unless you either don't believe God's Word is true, or by God's Word you can prove that what they teach is compatible with it. That's my opinion.

    Mike
     
    #74 O.F.F., Aug 7, 2004
  15. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Here is my opinion, and yes I am a member of a masonic group in Australia, I have been in it for about a year. I was very much opposed to the Freemasons until I took up my own study on the subject. I discovered that most things said against the Freemasons are outright lies, and then other stuff is taken out of context in order to give a certain impression. I have found nothing in Freemasons that conflicts with my Christian Faith at all. That said, if I did I would be the first to leave it.

    What I see is that the Freemasons were founded as a purley Christian Order from the Teutonic Knights that were eventually persecuted and fled to Scotland. This accounts for the various orders in Freemasonry that are restricted to Trinitarian Christians only, - The Rose Croix, Red Cross of Constantine, the Knights Templar and the Royal Order of Scotland amongst others.

    After arriving in Scotland, they were able to integrate from there into Britan, in both places being allied to the Stone Masons Guilds, the movment being one that united people and kept the governments from becoming too powerfull and abusing the people, as well as maintaining law and order in a society that had no police force at that time.

    Over the years because of declining membership, the blue lodge has been made more generic allowing all people to join. Jewish people wished to join in the seventeenth century which began this change. The Jewish Movement in the Freemasons is the Order of the Secret Monitor which looks at the friendship between King David and Jonathon and applies it to our lives today.

    Resultingly the Blue Lodge today is the equivalent of a College Fraternity or Scouts for Adults it seeks to encourage friendship and is not religious, yet if you join a Christian or a Jewish order that is a another sept of it, these are religious that teach Trinitarian Christianity.

    Some left over Christianity in the Blue Lodge is the white lambskin apron which represents Jesus, and the term Great Architect Of The Universe which is John Calvins term to represent the Trintiarian Christian Godhead.

    There is no Lucifer doctrine in the 33rd degree, there is no point where Freemasons are told "Oh sorry, you actually worship satan". The entire 33rd degree is published online in its entirity, there are no secrets in Freemasons that are not published online. the term jahbulon does not mean a trinity of three gods, but is a word found on a plaque on the site where the Temple once stood in Jerusalem which is used as a password. Along with various other word and scriptures from the Old Testament that are used for the same.

    No doubt there is debate on whether Hiram Abiff represents Jesus, Probably he does but stuff like that is where everyone has an opinion and all you have is conjecture anyway.
     
    #75 Ben W, Aug 8, 2004
  16. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    Ben, you said a lot of things and ended with:
    As former Masons, we can provide Grand Lodge documentation juxtaposed to Scripture to support the Christian case against Freemasonry. With all due respect, can you please provide the Masonic documentation and biblical references to support your statements. Otherwise, it sounds like all you present is conjecture.

    Mike Gentry
    Order of FORMER Freemasons
     
    #76 O.F.F., Aug 8, 2004
  17. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Unfortunatley Mike, exactly the same thing can be said in reverse. I am telling you what I have found to be the case.

    Considering that the Freemasons themselves have varying ideas on where Freemasonry comes from, it is no surprise that the same conjecture comes from the anti side who can not prove either where it comes from.

    As for Masonic Documentation, go to google and read the 33rd degree. Look up jahbuon, and see what it says in Primary Documents, not what someone hypothesises secondhand.
     
    #77 Ben W, Aug 8, 2004
  18. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    Mike

    I have presented Masonic Writtings that clearly say the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is Jesus Christ and God is represented in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity.

    The Blue Lodge comes from the Christian Frat of the York Rite so it only makes since that it points to Christ.

    Masonic Documentation a Masonic Bible and Tennessee Craftsmen.

    Masonic Bible: Lion of the Tribe of Judah represents Jesus Christ.
    Craftmen: Faith in the Merits of the Lion of Tribe of Judah is how you gain admittance into Heaven
    Biblical refrence is: Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    Masonic Prayer: Starts out with oh Great and Enernal Jehovah Light of Life!

    represented thru out the Bible.

    Masonic Concept of God in Ritual: God in the Threefold aspect of the Trinity, Jehovah

    Biblical Refrences: Genesis ch1 and John 1:1.

    These are three statements from Masonic

    Refrences to Christ:
    Morning Star
    Lion of the Tribe of Judah
    God in Threefold Aspect of Trinity.
     
    #78 Jacob Webber, Aug 8, 2004
  19. O.F.F.

    O.F.F. New Member

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    Corey & Ben

    How does Freemasonry define God?
    If it makes no distinction as to who God is, then it allows any concept of God to represent Him.
    From this statement, we see that Freemasonry teaches that all concepts of God are one and the same. This is why Masonic author Allen Roberts could make the following claim:
    A prominent Past Worshipful Master from the state of Oregon put it this way:
    If you and Ben are grounded in God's Word, then you both should know that the Masonic view of God is not consistent with the following verses of Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:5, Exodus 20:3, Psalm 96:5, Matthew 28:19, John 1:1-2, I Corinthians 10:19-21, II Corinthians 13:14, Philippians 2:6, and Colossian 1:15-17.

    A mature Christian who is familiar with what the Bible teaches about God should be able to ask and answer a few questions about the teachings and requirements of Freemasonry to determine if Freemasonry's teachings are truth, or heresy.

    Does the Hindu Mason believe in God, or a false god?

    Does the Mormon Mason believe in God, or a false god?

    Does the Buddhist Mason believe in God, or a false god?

    These questions are not for the Hindu, Mormon and Buddhist Masons to answer. They must be answered by Christians inside and outside of the Lodge who consider the position of Freemasonry. Freemasonry teaches that Hindus, Mormons, Buddhists and Christians have faith in the same God. This is NOT true from a biblical perspective.

    Finally, how does Freemasonry treat Jesus Christ?

    Unfortunately, you have allowed yourself to be deceived into believing that Freemasonry is somehow compatible with Christianity, when it clearly is not. While you may understand the claims made in the Scriptures about Jesus Christ, Masonry does not proclaim them or accept them. Freemasonry rejects Jesus Christ in many ways, such as when they lift up the name of Hiram Abiff.
    Whether you or Ben accept it or not the Kentucky Grand Lodge, and other Grand Lodges for which your Grand Lodges acknowledges & recognizes as fellow Masonic brethen, have taken the position that Jesus is a savior for Christians, while Hiram Abiff is a savior for Masons.

    Freemasonry declares that Jesus is not the only way to salvation when it teaches that what is essentially necessary to enter heaven is purity of life and conduct:
    How does a Mason go about living a life of purity and becoming righteous? The symbolic teaching of the Rough and Perfect Ashlar addresses how a Mason may become perfect. Notice that Freemasonry NEVER mentions faith in Jesus Christ as being a factor.
    The Grand Lodge of California provides materials for those who coach new initiates which explains this teaching a little further:
    The Legend of the Third Degree also teaches salvation through personal righteousness. All Grand Lodges lift up Hiram Abiff as the Masonic savior, but they do not use the word savior in the ritual, or monitors. Yet the teaching of ritual is easily understood:
    Hiram is a savior according to the Masonic concept of the word. Notice here that Masons are supposed to imitate Hiram in order that they may get into heaven. They are to imitate his virtuous life and righteousness, essentially, so that they may earn their own salvation. This applies to ALL MASONS regardless of their religious persuasion. Freemasonry has substituted imitation for faith and Hiram for Jesus. According the Masonic concept, a savior is a way shower, or example.
    Mike Gentry
    Order of FORMER Freemasons

    [ August 10, 2004, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: O.F.F. ]
     
    #79 O.F.F., Aug 10, 2004
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Mike, I appreciate your latest post documenting Mason beliefs. You did a fine job.

    My prayer is that the Masons on the BB who are believers will realize how Masonry teachings go against God's truth. Often the most dangerous teaching is one that mimics the truth and is only a hairbreadth away but in reality is not actually aligned with God's truth.
     
    #80 Marcia, Aug 10, 2004
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