Freemasonry

[Eladar]

So you believe that anyone who does what Jesus says to do is going to heaven? In other words you believe in salvation by works?

 

[Marcia]

The Worm said

They encourage each other to do good to others at all opportunities, but every Christian Mason I've met so far has told me they were Christians before they ever joined the lodge.

Surely you don't believe that every Mason is a Christian? (Especially in Islamic and Buddhist countries). Even in the US certainly not every Mason is a Christian, but by being in such an organization, they may believe that doing good works will get them to heaven, because this is what is taught. It may be that your friends do not know all that Masonry teaches, but there is so much in Freemasonry that is known to be against the Bible, that is why I posted those links. Have you looked at them? Have you examined the teachings of Freemasonry in light of the Bible? Please check out the links in the previous post and here.

John Ankerberg had a whole series of shows on Freemasonry several years ago and has material on his site. He showed cleary how it conflicts with Christianity and he had ex-Masons helping him.

Quote below is from

Freemasonry vs. Christianity

"Masonry, like all the religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, from them.... Truth is not for those that are unworthy...." Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, by Albert Pike, Washington D.C., 1958, p 104-105.

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court...of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the [lower] Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them." Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, by Albert Pike, Washington D.C., 1958, p. 819. . .

The name and nature of the Masonic deity is an offense to the one true God. It is taught in the Royal Arch degree that Masonry draws its teachings and powers from three great teachers and Gods. The combined deity is represented as a three-headed god, whose name is JoaBulOn, which stands for Jehovah, Baal, and Osiris. Every time Masons pronounce that name in the Masonic prayer of worship, they have defiled the Holy name of God.

In the Shrine, the initiate swears a terrible binding oath in the name of "Allah, the God of our Fathers." Mohammed was a false prophet and Allah is a god who has destroyed nation after nation of his followers. The red Fez itself was originally a badge of honor worn only by a Muslim who had actually killed a Christian and dipped his cap in the martyr's blood.

At the Apron lecture, the Mason is told that the lambskin apron will be his covering at the great white throne judgment of God. The prayer and dedicatory sounds great, but there is only one Great white throne judgment and it is the judgment of the damned (Rev. 20:11).

The Lodge promises godhood through the Lodge, the usurping of Christ's Melchizedek Priesthood, the Holy communion of the dead, drinking wine from the carved out top of a human skull, etc.

This is from John Ankerberg's site at http://johnankerberg.com/Articles/apologetics/AP0301W4.htm

Founder: No single individual. Masonry gradually evolved into its present form, known as "speculative" Masonry. This distinguishes it from the "operative" or "working" Masonry of the medieval stone masons. Operative Masonry slowly assimilated the mysticism and occultism of numerous religions and philosophies of the Middle Ages to become what is known as modern speculative Masonry. Most scholars trace modern Masonry to the time when four lodges merged in London in 1717 to form the first Grand Lodge.

Theology: Polytheistic, syncretistic.

Practice: Secret ritual, individual spiritual quest.

Historic antecedents: Ancient pagan mystery religion, medieval trade unions and occult practices.

Spheres of influence: Church, education, business, politics, charitable agency.

Ethics: Subjective, relative, amoral.

Levels of initiation: Social, religious, mystical.

Worldview: Humanistic, eclectic, mystical.

Source of authority: Masonic ritual, "landmarks" (principles or doctrines), Grand Lodges and prominent Masonic authorities and writers.

God: Unitarian, deistic, pantheistic; The Grand Architect of the Universe (GAOTU); variously defined and incorporated with pagan elements.

Jesus Christ: A supremely good man who understood divine [Masonic] truth.

Salvation: By personal character: good works and individual merit.

Sin: Character flaws, ignorance of spiritual [Masonic] reality, i.e., a flaw in human nature which men are able to correct through Masonic enlightenment.

Man: Flawed but not sinful in a biblical sense; potentially divine, however all non-Masons exist in spiritual darkness.

The Bible: A symbol of the divine will, not to be taken literally.

Information on masonry comes from ex-masons and masonry materials.

 

[frewtloop]

So you believe that anyone who does what Jesus says to do is going to heaven? In other words you believe in salvation by works?

Either way you cut it, it won't matter to you, you seem to wish to put words in my mouth and make me say something you can find objectionable. I can live with that if that's your chosen style of debating an issue, but I'd prefer we get a bit more substantive. The point is, I've known this man long enough to know whether he walks the walk or simply talks the talk, and I truly know he walks the (Christian) walk as well as anybody I know. His life is the strongest objection I find to the argument that something is inherently wrong with Freemasonry.

TW

 

[Eladar]

Either way you cut it, it won't matter to you, you seem to wish to put words in my mouth and make me say something you can find objectionable.

No, I'm simply pointing out the logical conclusion of what you're saying.

The point is, I've known this man long enough to know whether he walks the walk or simply talks the talk, and I truly know he walks the (Christian) walk as well as anybody I know. His life is the strongest objection I find to the argument that something is inherently wrong with Freemasonry.

Mormons walk the walk and talk the talk too. If you look at good Mormons (and there are alot of them out there) you'll see the same thing.

 

[frewtloop]

Mormons walk the walk and talk the talk too. If you look at good Mormons (and there are alot of them out there) you'll see the same thing.

There you go again. Who said anything about Mormons?

 

[Marcia]

Worm, Eladar is just taking what the principle of you said and applying it. If you think that there is nothing wrong with Freemasonry because you know a good Mason who "walks the talk," then we can also think there is nothing wrong Mormonism if we see a good Mormon who seems to be living out godly virtues. Or if we see a good Wiccan who lives out those virtues, should we conclude that there is nothing wrong with Wicca. This is exactly what you are saying about Masonry. You are saying because of how this man lives, you have concluded there is nothing wrong with Masonry. But you are neglecting the teachings.

We are supposed to examine teachings. You still have said nothing about that at all. What about the teachings of Masons and some of the things I and others have posted that show what they believe? It is so clear that these teachings are against the Bible. What do you have to say about the teachings???

 

[Eladar]

Thank you Marcia. I'm glad to see that someone understands what I'm saying.

 

[frewtloop]

John Ankerberg has some kind of axe to grind with the Masons, and is as misrepresentative of their beliefs as anybody around.

The Lodge promises godhood through the Lodge, the usurping of Christ's Melchizedek Priesthood, the Holy communion of the dead, drinking wine from the carved out top of a human skull, etc.

It would be helpful to cite specifics, otherwise all we have is your assurance that it does so. As far as the points you just mentioned, the first 2 I've never seen anything even close to, the third one we have as Christtians also, affirmed in the Apostles' Creed as "the communion of the saints," a communion which is said to be held "with those whose rest is won," as the hymnwriter put it. Only we don't call it "communion of the dead, as they are now more alive than ever; and the fourth I wouldn't have a clue, certainly doesn't sound like Freemasonry.

Surely you don't believe that every Mason is a Christian?

It's quite a leap to go from my statement, "every Christian Mason I know was a Christian first" to your statement, "every Mason is a Christian." Taking lessons from eladar on putting words in my mouth, I presume?

there is so much in Freemasonry that is known to be against the Bible, that is why I posted those links. Have you looked at them? Have you examined the teachings of Freemasonry in light of the Bible?

Your opinion, of course. You simply can't take Freemasonry so literally, that seems to be the one thing making it such an issue with you. There is very little there to be taken literally in the rituals. And you would not believe how many links I've been to in search of the truth, shall I post them here as well? I can send you to the correct places to go, perhaps the most even-handed one from a non-masonic source (since I assume you would be distrustful of getting the story from Masons) is the encyclopedia article found at wikipedia.
It's really a very unfortunate set of circumstances that put things in the state they are. Basically, the Masons are a non-offensive bunch, so much so that for the first 10 years or more of the internet, they were still operating under a position of non-response. Finally the lies got so bad and so widespread some Masons got together and started speaking out. But groups like the ex-masons sure do have a head start.

John Ankerberg had a whole series of shows on Freemasonry several years ago and has material on his site. He showed cleary how it conflicts with Christianity and he had ex-Masons helping him.

I'm sure he did, he seems to be making this as profitable a venture as anybody in the business. And it most assuredly is a business, given the atmosphere these days that make conspiracy thrive.

You have to pay attention to the guy's dots, he would just as soon people didn't get the whole truth, either, as he seems to enjoy picturing Pike doing. For instance, "Truth is not for those that are unworthy...." seems to have Pike agreeing with Ankerberg's assessment of him. In actuality, it says "Truth is not for those that are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it." That changes the remark completely from Ankerberg's clipped version, which seeks to portray Pike, I presume, as somewhat arrogant.

Omissions are always a thing to watch for, it usually (but not always) indicates the person doing the quoting has something in the original they wish to hide. Pike's "Morals and Dogma" is available on line without the omissions for anybody who prefers to see for themselves instead of trusting anyone's quotations and omissions. One of them can be found at illuminati-news.com, but it has an omission of its own of another sort. They seem to have forgotten the preface to the book, which contains Pike's self-assessment of what he has written:

In preparing this work, the Grand Commander has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less.

Still, perhaps half of it is his own; and, in incorporating here the thoughts and words of others, he has continually changed and added to the language, often intermingling, in the same sentences, his own words with theirs. . . . He claims, therefore, little of the merit of authorship, and has not cared to distinguish his own from that which he has taken from other sources, being quite willing that every portion of the book, in turn, may be regarded as borrowed from some old and better writer.

The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyong the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottsh Rite uses the word “Dogma” in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only requred of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. Of course, the ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations are not embodied as part of the doctrines of the Rite; but because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects, and because nothing so conclusively proves the radical difference between our human and the animal nature, as the capacity of the human mind to entertain such speculations in regard to itself and the Deity.

The biggest mischaracterization of Freemasonry is to portray it as a religion. On that issue, Pike says:

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. The Brahmin, the Jew, the Mahometan, the Catholic, the Protestant, each professing his peculiar religion, sanctioned by the laws, by time, and by climate, must needs retain it, and cannot have two religions (Morals & Dogma, p. 161)

3-headed God? I've seen a lot on this issue, but never that read on it. And the ritual explains the name anyway, it simply has the letters there, the "3 words" are only to help key the pronunciation of the "ineffable name" that is not supposed to be pronounced. It is simply the same one given to Moses, YHWH.

Theology: Polytheistic, syncretistic.

Well, you have to profess a belief that there is one God before you ever get in, that's not polytheistic.

The only "syncretism" done is to express in "common denominator" form the things that are to be found in all monotheistic religions, and the main one expressed is God as Creator, from which the GAOTU derived. Syncretism is a culling together of different beliefs, an upsizing; Freemasonry on the other hand is a sorting out and pulling together only those beliefs held in common in their expression of deity, thus is a downsizing. So neither of these terms truly fit.

I'd go on, but this is a long-winded post already. It's pretty obvious with the headstart the antimasons have got off to, it's a pretty tremendous task to try to enable people to work through the misinformation and see that the truth has been buried by these people for far too long.

TW

 

[frewtloop]

You are saying because of how this man lives, you have concluded there is nothing wrong with Masonry. But you are neglecting the teachings.

Not at all. Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them." Not suspect, not guess, but know. And when someone knows the Lord Jesus Christ, there is a light that should not and cannot be hid under a bushel. What makes you think I can't use the powers of discernment God gave me, and be able to tell whether my friend's commitment and witness is genuine, after having the privilege of his acquaintance these last 30 years?

The fact is, I cannot deny it. You, of course, never having met him, are much wiser than I and can tell me from a distance how wrong I am. And all on the basis of one faulty premise which lies at the basis of your whole presumptive argument: he belongs to a group that you have already made up your mind about and refuse to hear any discussion to the contrary, or at least that's the way it appears.

TW

 

[Eladar]

Do Masons teach that there is salvation without any mention of Jesus Christ?

The answer to this question ought to be enough.

 

[Marcia]

Worm, you are missing the point.

We are not saying that this person you know is not a Christian. We are not trying to say anything abour your friend, haven't you noticed? We are saying that the teachings of Masonry are not compatible with Christianity. You are still not addressing the issue.

BTW,when Jesus says "by your fruits you shall know them" he is not just talking about works but about teachings. Do the teachings conflict with or follow God's teachings. If the former, we cannot accept them.

You still will not address the teachings of Freemasonry that have been posted here and elsewhere. But if you cling to the idea that Freemasonry is okay because you know a good Christian who is a Mason, then there is not much else to say because you are not examining the teachings.

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by Eladar:

[Masons teach that all religions are valid ways of worshipping the same God. If this is your belief, then I can see how this doesn't bother you. [/QB]

Here is an example of exactly what I was leading at with what goes on at Anti-Masonic sites. Where is it that I have stated that I am in any way a believer or teacher of the idea that all roads lead to Rome or that all religions lead to the one God? Yet because I have a different view, I immediantly have it suggested in a manner that can only be described as rude.

For those of you that have got to know me over the past few years and know where I stand with Jesus being my Saviour as I pointed out Re Gnostiscm which nobody has an answer to in 2 pages, Consider the "Fruit" that is being displayed here, and you will see why I draw certain conclusions re sites presented here for approval.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Never have I seen in Masonic Ritual were even in a subtle way. Freemasonry never says you are gaurnteed to get to Heaven because Freemasonry does not teach Salvation. It does present some truths concerning Heaven from a Christian view. Even thou it is not specifly Christian. The Ritual was writen a York Rite mason which is a branch of Freemasonry that is Christian you have to profess that you are a Christian in order to join the Knights Templar. In the York Rite Christ is the focus and loving your neighbor.

 

[Marcia]

Albert Pike was an esoteric metaphysician. As I sat one day reading through Morals and Dogma, about 4 yrs. after being saved, a very heavy feeling came over me because what I was reading was like what I had believed when I followed Eastern and New Age doctrines. It has to be one of the most evil books I've ever read through.

Masonry is not a religion but it has spiritual teachings. These teachings embrace a God that is not the God of the Bible. The woman who was president of the astrological society in Atlanta and who bought our building for us was very active in a co-mason order. I can guarantee you she was not a Christian. I also knew a guy who was into sacred geometry and the New Age who was a Mason. He was a New Ager. Neither of these people would be involved in an organization they perceived as being compatible with Christianity because they rejeted Jesus as the Savior. Jesus was a wise spiritual teacher to them, as he was to me. He was also the avatar of the Age of Pisces to myself and to the astrological society woman.

I have some Masonic books and also have "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" by Arthur Edward Waite. Waite is the one who developed the most popular Tarot cards used today. Waite talks about God but this is not the God of the Bible. It is the God of esoteric metaphysical beliefs so familiar to me from my past.

I have seen nothing stated here so far that convinces me Masonry is not what I discovered it to be -- an organization that likes to appear Christian to some (certainly not in an Islamic or Buddhist country, however,) and likes to quote the Bible and appear piously for "God," but is actually a wolf in sheep's clothing.

From the article I posted before, "Freemasonry vs. Christianity":

Masonic Doctrine on Jesus Christ "Jesus was just a man. He was one of the "exemplars," one of the great men of the past, but not divine and certainly not the only means of redemption of lost mankind. He was on a level with other great men of the past like Aristotle, Plato, Pythagoras and Mohammed. His life and legend were no different from that of Krishna, the Hindu god. He is "the son of Joseph," not the Son of God."

Someone posted earlier something about how aren't we all seeking more light? No, I'm not. I have the light of Christ. Do I seek a closer walk with Him? Yes, but that is not seeking more light. Seeking more light is a statement used in New Age philosophies (that really began a long time ago) to mean that you are constantly evolving into higher states of understanding. This is metaphysical language alien to the Bible. I know what it means, and it has nothing to do with the true God or Christ or the Bible. I was a New Ager for about 20 yrs. - I ate, drank, lived and breathed esoteric, metaphysical beliefs from many sources. I also taught astrology, so I was deeply involved. When I read these Masonry materials, they take me right back to that other life.

 

[Eladar]

Go back and read the lamb skin ritual I posted earlier. It speaks of salvation by works.

 

[Eladar]

What do you think would have been God's reaction during the times of the Old Testament to a group of Israelites who decided to worship a "generic God" along side those who worshipped Baal?

 

[Ben W]

Consider that Freemasons are also requested to sign a form prior to joining that states that they have nothing to do with the order known as "Co-Masonry". People involved in that order cannot be Freemasons. If it is discovered that a person holds dual membership, they will be thrown out. Co-Masonry and Freemasonry have nothing in common save that the Co-Masons would like to recruit from the Freemasons.

My own study of Co-Masonry has discovered quite alot concerning the Egyptian god Osiris and in my mind is a religious order. I think that alot of attacks that are launched at Freemasonry are misdirected in this area.

Consider the orders known as the Knights Templar and the Red Cross of Constantine, go search some information on those. They speak completley about Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, the very same as the one in the Bible.

 

[Marcia]

Of course co-masons can't be Freemasons, because Freemasons can only be men. Co-masonic orders are for women. Below is from a site of a friend of mine who was in a co-masonic order. I think the evidence that has been posted, with info from former Masons, speaks for itself.

http://groups.msn.com/Rooftop/comasonry.msnw

Co-masonry is a term used to describe the 54+ Orders that were created for the wives, children, and close relatives of masons (and in some instances, their friends). We have the rituals for 19 of the Orders listed below. Since most, if not all of them, were written by masons, they all have the same "morals and dogma" as masonry except in a sugar-coated, watered-down form. They share masonry’s secretive and ritualistic nature, and their symbolism. Every symbol has an exoteric (known) meaning and an esoteric (hidden/secret) meaning. These orders have many of the same rites as masonry, including rites of divestiture, investiture, circumambulation (an element of sun-worship), illumination, etc. A few of these 40+ Orders no longer exist, while other Orders are limited to a specific locale.

 

[Jacob Webber]

The following quote can be found almost word for word in most Masonic monitors, the Craft ritual manuel. Each candidate, upon completion of the initiation is given a white Lambskin apron whose pure and spotless surface, he is told, would be "an ever present reminder of purity of life and rectitude of conduct, and when at last, after a life of faithful service your weary feet shall have come to the end of life's toilsome journey and from your nerveless grasp shall have dropped forever the working tools of life, may the record of your life be as pure and spotless as this pure emblem which I place in your hands tonight, and when your trembling soul shall stand, naked and alone, before the Great White Throne Judgement, there to receive judgement for the deeds done here while here in the body, may it be your portion to hear from Him who sitteth as the Judge Supreme, the welcome words: Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Thou has been faithful over a few things, I will make thee rule over many things! Enter into the joy of thy Lord."

I have read this and see no Salvation by works als it leaves out part of the lecture. I you will pay close attention you will notice a very important word used in it. (may it be your portion to hear from Him who sitteth as the Judge Supreme) Notice it did not say it will be your portion to hear well done thy good and faithful servant becuase Freemasonry does not teach salvation. I have seen many Pastors who are not Masons views on this and a Majority of them say that if you do not read the whole lecture and just see the word conduct you asume salvation by works. But after they read it they say it is true in it words.

Basicly the Lecture says as follows: God has set down a rule that you must be without sin to enter Heaven. That the Pure ness of the Lamb is a reminder of what God said and that we must be without sin to enter Heaven. Now Freemasonry does not tell you how to be without sin as Freemasonry states Salvation is of the Spirital not the Fratenal.

There is no worship that goes on during an open lodge. Unless you are talking about prayer. If you consider praying in a room while someone of a different religion is in the room praying as well than Everyone is guilty of this because when you goto Nascar or a Ballgame or even Church if that Person is lost and with out Christ and they are Praying to God and you are to than you have just joined in worship to their God If you view it that way.

 

[Jacob Webber]

I would also like to add a majority of things said about Freemasonry seems to come from a Misunderstanding about the Mormon Church. The founder of the Morman Church Joseph Smith was a Mason. He took part of the Rituals of the Masonic Lodge and made it in to a Religion He uses Signs to recognize a priest. People who have left the Mormon Church have desided it seems that Freemasonry is just like the Mormon Church that it teaches Salvation by works at that if you know a certain handshake or password you can get into Heaven. Freemasonry does not teach any of these. Freemasonry only teaches you how to be a better person while you are here on Earth.