Freemasonry

[Marcia]

1. Being given the lambskin upon initiation with those words certainly gives the idea that one is receiving the lambskin for being initiated, so it reinforces the idea that you have done something to help you as you stand before God, especially with the words about judgment coming along in the same little speech.

2. Nothing is said about being saved by grace and not by deeds. The focus in this whole passage you quote is on deeds. It gives the impression that salvation is by works.

3. The combination of hearing about a life of faithful service after getting the Lambskin and the the words "Well done, good and faithful servant" imply that it is works that save. Nothing is said here about faith in Christ. If they are going to use words from the Bible, then why can't Christ be mentioned?

4. I read an earlier post and I've read elsewhere that prayers can't be said (at least in some lodges) using the name of Christ. So why are they trying to sound Christian with these quotes from the Bible? Why do people say Masonry isn't spiritual when they are trying so hard to sound Biblical? That's a rhetorical question.

5. You say they say that you must be without sin to enter heaven but don't say anything about how to be without sin. That is nothing but cruel. Why even talk about being without sin if they are not going to give the answer?? If an organization is going to quote the Bible but then refuses to teach about grace through faith in Christ, then they are presenting a twisted gospel. Either don't quote the Bible at all, trying to sound pious, or include the part about salvation through Christ, the most important thing in the Bible! This is why Masonry is dangerous.

6. You say there is no worship. That's irrelevant. There's no worship in astrology, either, but it is still a spiritual practice. There is no worship in Buddhist meditation, either, but it's still spiritual. There does not have to be worship to have a spiritual component.

7. Why are Christiains okay being in an organization that tries to sound Christian but is misusing the Bible and in other countries honors the Koran or other non-Christian texts???

What you posted here only helps my case. I would only be in pain to be part of a group that quoted God's word and then talked about standing before God in judgement but said nothing about salvation in Christ. How can a Christain stand there and hear these words and not cringe, or cry out, "Give the rest of it!"? That's rhetorical, too. It only makes one wonder why only the bad part -- that we have to be sinless to enter heaven -- is given, and not the rest about Christ. What a tragedy.

 

[Ben W]

Co-Masonry is for men and women, hence the "Co"

There is an order called Womens Freemasonry which is exactly that Womens only Freemasonry. Womens Freemasonry, Mens Freemasonry are completley seperate from Co-Masonry, hence the prohibitation to join Co-masonry.

I have searched through all the masonic books I have found, and I can find absolutley no direct reference to how a person may gain Salvation through Freemasonry. What they do say is this, noted in a ritual book "As a Freemason let me reccomend to your most serious contemplation the V.S.L (Traditionally a KJV) charging you to consider it as the unerring standard of truth and justice and to regulate your life by the divine precepts it contains".

If Freemasonry is an anyway anti-christian, why are they clearly refering people back to their own Bible to study its divine precepts. Are not in those precepts the Salvation Plan for the Christian? if freemasonry is a religion, why refer people back to their own religion.

Freemasonry is nothing more than a Fraternity, just like Scouts for Adults. There own history of the handshakes and signs is all verifiable by the study of the Trades Guildes that existed in centuries past that afforded Tradespeople protection while travelling. By giving these signs they were able to travel with other tradespeople and gain access to job sites and be afforded protection from robbers and the like, bearing in mind that police forces were not in existance then.

Trades Guildes have pretty much passed away in these times, and Freemasons are a Gentlemans club that emphasises being a Gentleman. It is not in anyway a religion, yet its rituals draw from a time when all people were assumed to be christians as the countries religions were decided by the nobility. England was converted from Paganism to Christianity in the middle ages. Fully documented in church history.

 

[Jacob Webber]

You may get an impression if you try to read to deep into it and not finish the sentence. but that is not what it is it is only a statement.


3. The combination of hearing about a life of faithful service after getting the Lambskin and the the words "Well done, good and faithful servant" imply that it is works that save. Nothing is said here about faith in Christ. If they are going to use words from the Bible, then why can't Christ be mentioned?

Agian you forget and overlook the part "May it be your portion to hear" See this is what I mean by just seeing part of the sentence and not reading the whole sentence.

And by the way Christ is mention. If you were to ever get a hold of a Lodge Book or if you get a book by Dr. Gary Leazer Freemasonry and the Southern Baptist Convention you will see alot as well He helped with the research for the SBC on Freemasonry.

4. I read an earlier post and I've read elsewhere that prayers can't be said (at least in some lodges) using the name of Christ. So why are they trying to sound Christian with these quotes from the Bible? Why do people say Masonry isn't spiritual when they are trying so hard to sound Biblical? That's a rhetorical question.

Lets face it wether you believe in God or not the Bible is a God sorce of Moral Rules to go by so why not use it. As far as Muskim and Hindus Freemasonry does not ask that You believe in the God that is Mention in the Ritual but that you believe that you are accountable to a Supreme Being. From me it is Jesus Christ( YHWH) for a Jew or Muslim it is YHWH. Freemasonry is not in place for religious reseans it is there the help all men not matter what there religion to come together to help one another and anyother needy person there is.

5. You say they say that you must be without sin to enter heaven but don't say anything about how to be without sin. That is nothing but cruel. Why even talk about being without sin if they are not going to give the answer?? If an organization is going to quote the Bible but then refuses to teach about grace through faith in Christ, then they are presenting a twisted gospel. Either don't quote the Bible at all, trying to sound pious, or include the part about salvation through Christ, the most important thing in the Bible! This is why Masonry is dangerous.

The reason this is done is because Freemasonry does not teach Salvation you have to find it without Freemasonry becuase it will not get you into Heaven. But that is were I would come in if a Mason reads these and ask How do I get a sinless life before God than I will tell Him thru he Blood of Jesus Christ.

7. Why are Christiains okay being in an organization that tries to sound Christian but is misusing the Bible and in other countries honors the Koran or other non-Christian texts???

First it is a organization that is in place to help people with needs It may sound Christian because this is what Christ taught by the Story of the Good Samaritain. Freemasonry simply applies this to its members to be charitably to any person in need. Second Freemasonry does not tell its members how they can worship because it is not its place to do so. However in some states Mormons are not aloud to be made Masons. In Sweden You have to be a Christian to be a Mason and there is the York Rite Masonry which does teach Salvation thru Jesus Christ and Jesus is mention at every meeting of the Knights Templar. Were people get Jesus is not mention in Freemasonry I do not know maybe because they do not ask the right people.

-- that we have to be sinless to enter heaven -- is given, and not the rest about Christ. What a tragedy.

If you were a Mason you would know better than this but as you can only go off of what info you are given. As an honorable man would not go back on his promise.

 

[frewtloop]

Marcia,

The combination of hearing about a life of faithful service after getting the Lambskin and the the words "Well done, good and faithful servant" imply that it is works that save. Nothing is said here about faith in Christ. If they are going to use words from the Bible, then why can't Christ be mentioned?

The passage you get this quote from, Matthew 25, is speaking about works as well. These words were said to the man who took the money he was given and used it to make more. Likewise, it is followed by a parable of separation of sheep and goats, the division being done on the basis of what they had done/not done for others in need. Nothing is said here about faith in Christ either, even though it is Christ who says the words. Why balk at it from Freemasons, when they are saying essentially the same thing as Jesus has said?
I think you simply forget or choose to ignore the symbolic nature of Freemasonry. The person who goes through the degrees is told when presented the apron that it "represents" innocence and purity. If you read through any of the Freemasonic rituals carefully, you will find that they speak entirely with language of symbol and allegory. Trying to impose upon it a language that is foreign to it will naturally lead you to the erroneous conclusions such as those you express.

So why are they trying to sound Christian with these quotes from the Bible? Why do people say Masonry isn't spiritual when they are trying so hard to sound Biblical?

Truth is, no one is trying to "sound" Christian at all. Their stated position in American lodges is that the Bible is "the rule and guide of our faith." You don't read Christian writers with such a critical eye, and there are huge numbers of them who quote from the Bible as they write. Isn't that a bit of a double standard? Our government is founded on biblical principles, will you criticize them as well?

Why are Christiains okay being in an organization that tries to sound Christian but is misusing the Bible and in other countries honors the Koran or other non-Christian texts???

It's been said already, but deserves a repeat, the lodge is neutral on the means of salvation, it leaves one's religion up to them. The lodge's focus, though it involves religious principles, is fraternal at its heart.

I read an earlier post and I've read elsewhere that prayers can't be said (at least in some lodges) using the name of Christ.

The statement as you put it is incorrect. The only name you name as forbidden is Christ, but Buddha, Allah, Krishna, or any other name that is given to deity are all set aside for the period of time that lodge is in session. I must say, I have not heard a huge outcry from Muslims because they can't pray in the name of Allah. It simply is not the thing you and others portray it to be, as though Christ is being "forbidden." It would be no different than a public forum like a football game, where those in charge would respectfully ask that a prayer to begin be offered to "God" and not to God specified by name. It's a simple matter of consideration that not everyone present may be on the same page where God-concepts are concerned. This gets blown way out of proportion in comparison to what it is in practice. Besides, this is only during the time lodge is in session. The lodge in my town meets once a month for 2 hours or so. I assume the rest of the time they are perfectly free to pray as they wish.

If an organization is going to quote the Bible but then refuses to teach about grace through faith in Christ, then they are presenting a twisted gospel.

Or they are not teaching the gospel at all. The lodge is not the only group that is not expressly Christian, which yet sees there are valid principles for living to be found within the Bible.

Why are Christiains okay being in an organization that tries to sound Christian but is misusing the Bible and in other countries honors the Koran or other non-Christian texts???

This is a double or possibly triple mischaracterization. I already addressed the issue of "trying to sound Christian" a couple of paragraphs ago. I'm afraid you'll have to clarify "misusing the Bible," that's a vague enough concept that I can't tell what practice it could even remotely be referring to. "Honoring the Koran" or other sacred texts is a bit of a mis-definition. The use of another text is something which, in countries where Christianity would be the dominant preference of most members, that would be done only if a person requested it, only for a ritual in which they would be taking an obligation and have made it known they would prefer to take it on a book other than the Bible, and only for that specific circumstance. At all other times, the Bible is the only book on the altar, and is the one declared to be the "rule and guide of our faith."

You still will not address the teachings of Freemasonry that have been posted here and elsewhere. But if you cling to the idea that Freemasonry is okay because you know a good Christian who is a Mason, then there is not much else to say because you are not examining the teachings.

Actually, I was still waiting on you in this regard. I posted on 5/14 @ 2:12 in response to some of what I saw being referenced as Freemasonic "teaching," refuting some of it, and asking for some clear reference to show where Freemasonry does teach some of the other things that were mentioned, which I have not come across anywhere, even on the most ridiculously outrageous antimasonic websites. So to my understanding, I had put the ball, as they say, back in your court. I assumed if you had anything to back up your accusations, such as the lodge "teaching godhood" or "usurping the Melchizedek priesthood," you would have already done so.

TW

 

[D28guy]

The Worm,

"The statement as you put it is incorrect. The only name you name as forbidden is Christ, but Buddha, Allah, Krishna, or any other name that is given to deity are all set aside for the period of time that lodge is in session."

And who do you think it might be who would inspire a group to not speak the name of Jesus?

God?

Or Satan?

Mike

 

[Marcia]

"Why balk at it from Freemasons, when they are saying essentially the same thing as Jesus has said?"

Because Jesus said other things, like to believe in him or perish. So they use or quote some things and leave out the most important part.

You two are saying that the lodge is neutral on salvation but points men back to their own beliefs. However, bringing up the Judgement Seat is pretty heavy stuff. Why bring up the fact that all men will be judged before God if you are avoiding salvation? It's counterintuitive and illogical.

Allegiance is sworn to your brothers in the Lodge when the Bible tells us that for a believer, other believers are our brothers in Christ. That is our family, not people in a secret society.

And you say that there is no worship, but one of my books says, "Our lodges are situated E. and W. because all places of Divine worship, as well as Mason's regular, well-formed, constituted lodges are, or ought to be, so situated: for which we assign three Masonic reasons: first, the Sun, the Glory of the Lord, rises in the E. and sets in the W.; second, learning originated in the E., and then spread its benign influence to the W.; the third last, and grand reason, which is too long to be entered upon now, is explained in the course of our Lectures."

Too long?

At one point, a worshipful master says "in the name of the Royal Solomon." So people are doing things in the name of a dead king?

You say it says nothing about salvation, but it does. It talks about how to reach the "heavens." How do Masons get there? "The way by which Masons hope to get there is by the assistance of a ladder, in Scripture, called Jacob's Ladder. It is composed of many staves or rounds, which point out many moral virtues, but three principal ones, which are Faith, Hope, and Charity: Faith in the Great Architect of the Universe, Hope in salvation, and to be in Charity with all men." It goes on to talk about how faith, hope and charity help Masons ascend the steps, but never mentions Christ at all.

So here it is talking about salvation and plainly says that you get to the heavens by faith, hope, and charity, which is not true. It's not faith in God, but faith in Jesus Christ that saves, and you have to believe in the name of Jesus Christ.

Also, a Masonic pamphlet I have on "The Bible in Freemasonry" says that in 1816, Christian references were "expunged as far as possible from Craft masonry" and Moses and Solomon were "elevated."

Just as I could not participate in a prayer led by someone of another faith, so I could not participate in an organization where many things from the Bible are mentioned, Judgement by God is referred to, some people from the Bible are referred to, and Christless prayers are said but no mention of Christ as Savior is made. It's like giving someone an empty shell.

My grandfather was a Mason and when he died, my grandmother, a So. Baptist, would not allow a Masonic funeral. I didn't ask her at the time why not but I think I know now.

I once heard, and I think it's pretty on the mark, that Satan's motto is "Anything but Christ." So talk about God, morals, being good, judgement, etc, but leave out the essential message of salvation and you have a form of religion that has no truth.

"I taught nothing in secret," Jesus, John 18:20

 

[D28guy]

"The only name you name as forbidden is Christ, but Buddha, Allah, Krishna, or any other name that is given to deity are all set aside for the period of time that lodge is in session.""

"13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,

16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.

18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Jacob Webber]

(You two are saying that the lodge is neutral on salvation but points men back to their own beliefs. However, bringing up the Judgement Seat is pretty heavy stuff. Why bring up the fact that all men will be judged before God if you are avoiding salvation? It's counterintuitive and illogical.)


Because of accountablity if you do not believe that God will hold you responible for your actions than you can not be trusted


(secret society) Freemasonry is not a secrect society they have signs at ever lodge telling you were and when they meet. This is not something you want to do if you are a secret society.


(And you say that there is no worship, but one of my books says, "Our lodges are situated E. and W. because all places of Divine worship, as well as Mason's regular, well-formed, constituted lodges are, or ought to be, so situated: for which we assign three Masonic reasons: first, the Sun, the Glory of the Lord, rises in the E. and sets in the W.; second, learning originated in the E., and then spread its benign influence to the W.; the third last, and grand reason, which is too long to be entered upon now, is explained in the course of our Lectures." )

The Lodges are based on King Solomons Temple.

(At one point, a worshipful master says "in the name of the Royal Solomon." So people are doing things in the name of a dead king?)

Never Heard this

(You say it says nothing about salvation, but it does. It talks about how to reach the "heavens." How do Masons get there? "The way by which Masons hope to get there is by the assistance of a ladder, in Scripture, called Jacob's Ladder. It is composed of many staves or rounds, which point out many moral virtues, but three principal ones, which are Faith, Hope, and Charity: Faith in the Great Architect of the Universe, Hope in salvation, and to be in Charity with all men." It goes on to talk about how faith, hope and charity help Masons ascend the steps, but never mentions Christ at all.)

Notice again the word (Hope) this is not a garuntee that you will get into Heaven everyone Hopes to goto Heaven. Again Christ is mention but like I said you have limited info on the matter so you go by what you have been told.
Rev 5:5


(So here it is talking about salvation and plainly says that you get to the heavens by faith, hope, and charity, which is not true. It's not faith in God, but faith in Jesus Christ that saves, and you have to believe in the name of Jesus Christ.)

Again it talks about Salvation but does not teach it. It says you Hope in Salvation but it does not say you get it. And Jesus is God and Faith in Jesus who is God is how you receive Salvation.


(Also, a Masonic pamphlet I have on "The Bible in Freemasonry" says that in 1816, Christian references were "expunged as far as possible from Craft masonry" and Moses and Solomon were "elevated.")

Not sure about Moses not sure how Solomon is elevated neither. But I see many Christain Refernces in it But that is just me.

(Just as I could not participate in a prayer led by someone of another faith, so I could not participate in an organization where many things from the Bible are mentioned, Judgement by God is referred to, some people from the Bible are referred to, and Christless prayers are said but no mention of Christ as Savior is made. It's like giving someone an empty shell.)

If you ar at Church and someone does not see Jesus the exact same as you do they have a different Faith than you. If you believe that you can lose you salvation than you Jesus would not be the same as mine because I believe that once Christ has you, you can never be seperated from Him. So if anyone in you church has a slightly different view than you they are of a different Faith. No I personaly do not believe this and I am giving it as an example. Wether you believe you can lose you salvation or not does not affect Jesus's Saving Grace on you.


(I once heard, and I think it's pretty on the mark, that Satan's motto is "Anything but Christ." So talk about God, morals, being good, judgement, etc, but leave out the essential message of salvation and you have a form of religion that has no truth.)

Again about Christ this is a false claim. Read the Book Freemasonry and the Southern Baptist convention and You will see about Christ and Freemasonry. Plus The York Rite Knight's Templar is Masonic and Teaches the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ. The Blue Lodge just teaches Morals and How to treat you fellow man based on Teachings that have come from the Bible.


Wether your Grandmother wanted a Masonic Funeral or not it is up to Her. Ask Her if you can and see why she did not. But to condime something without a good knowledge or looking about both sides is wrong. If you look at it with you mind already made up that it is evil you will overlook things that I have said before like not reading the whole sentence and seeing only words like Conduct or Hope in Salvation without seeing the other words in the Sentence.

 

[Marcia]

You said, "Freemasonry is not a secrect society they have signs at ever lodge telling you were and when they meet. This is not something you want to do if you are a secret society."

Of course, it's secret! I couldn't go in there to a meeting or witness an intiation could I? Nor could any non-Mason. One of my Masonic books event talks about it!! They say that the person is not to divulge any of the secrets. "As a Freemason, there are other excellencies of character" and these are "Secrecy, Fidelity, and Obedience." It goes on to say that the Mason is never to divulge any of the "Masonic secrets" that may be entrusted to them. Elsewhere are other references to secrets.

I clearly quoted something that says the Lodge is a place of divine worship. You have said it is not.

If some Lodges mention salvation in Christ, it is still true that many -- or most -- don't.

My grandmother died in 1970. I'll have to ask her about my grandfather's funeral when I see her in heaven. Fortunately, I have not relied on salvation as taught by or implied in the Masonic Lodge to get to heaven.

You said, "If you are at Church and someone does not see Jesus the exact same as you do they have a different Faith than you. If you believe that you can lose you salvation than you Jesus would not be the same as mine because I believe that once Christ has you, you can never be seperated from Him. So if anyone in you church has a slightly different view than you they are of a different Faith."

First of all, a slight different view does not mean a different faith. A different faith is one that denies the essentials of the Christian faith or is not Chirstian at all.

But I'm in a church that holds to the Biblical view of Christ and the Christian faith. So, yes, there may be unbelievers there but I am in a place that honors Christ and the people leading the prayer are praying in the name of Christ. I am not knowingly praying while someone prays without naming Christ. That is not the same as praying in the Masonic Lodge which is taking pains to avoid praying in the name of Christ.

Nothing you have posted has changed my mind about Freemasonry. It is an organization that denies being religious yet teaches religious things, quotes from the Bible, and avoids the name of Christ. That is evil to me.

 

[frewtloop]

Marcia,

I can't help but notice how many times you refer to "one of my masonic books," while giving no indication what you refer to. For someone who throws all the stones you do about "secrecy," that somehow stands out as more than a trifle inconsistent. General practice on forum boards is, if you quote from published information, you give the source so that (1) your source is properly attributed, and (2) so if someone desires, they may go and see the source for themselves firsthand. I would say it is even more imperative at present, as I am not the only one who seems to be saying they have never heard of some of the quotes you have set forth.

TW

 

[Ben W]

Scouting requires a belief in God, yet does not use the name of Jesus, is that organisation evil? Unlikely. There reason for the belief in God is the same as the Freemasons, to be an example of accountability. Not a Salvation plan.

 

[D28guy]

Ben,

"Scouting requires a belief in God, yet does not use the name of Jesus, is that organisation evil?"

Do the scouts forbid the name Jesus Christ to be spoken of, prayed to, or referred to as being god?

Here is something of interest...

"The majority of Masons today don't have a clue as to the true meaning of their rituals and symbols. And they certainly cannot be called bad people. Misled, yes, and most really are the good natured philanthropists helping their community, that we see outwardly. You see it is not required of intiates to ascend any higher than that of the third degree Master Mason. They know there are another 30 degrees if one wished to continue, but the initiation process is a tedious and drawn out affair (it might take a year to reach the third degree), which the participants, for the most part, are happy it's over with. For them it is good that they not continue. And that's just the way higher initiates, or adepts, like it.

"The Blue Degrees are but the court of portico(porch) of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally mislead by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them....their true explication is reserved for the Adept, the Princes of Masonry." (32nd & 33rd degrees)

General Albert Pike wrote those words in a work called: Morals and Dogma in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, 1871. At the time his title was the Grand commander of the Supreme Council, of the Scottish Rite in Washington D.C. This book is revered by occult groups across the globe, and most masons have never read it, let alone understood it. If they did understand it, there's a good possibility they would leave the craft. It deals with the occult origins of the symbols, initiations, and rituals of Freemasonry. It is also a handbook for degree initiation, as it details them all up to the 33rd degree, which was invented by Pike himself, some say in order to have a higher degree than the president, who ceremoniously receives the 32nd degree if elected.....Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity....an outer organization concealing an inner Brotherhood of the elect...it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum. [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']

~Manly P Hall 33rd degree, Lectures on Ancient, p.433]

....."The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahweh reversed; for Satan is not a black god.. for the initiates this is not a Person, but a force, created for good,but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of liberty and free will."

[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," Master Mason / 3rd Degree p. 102 ]

"Masonry is a search for light. That light. That search leads us back, as you see, to the Kabala. In that ancient and little understood (source book) the infinite will find the source of many doctrines; and (he) may in time come to understand the Hermetic philosophers, the Alchemists, all the Antipapal Thinkers of the Middle Ages, and Emanuel Swedenborg."

[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 28th Degree p. 741 ]

"All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabala and return to it; everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of the Illuminati, Jacob Boeheme, Swedenborg, Saint Martin, and others is borrowed from the Kabala; all Masonic associations owe to it their secrets and their symbols."

[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 28th Degree p. 747 ]

"Though Masonry is identical with the ancient Mysteries, it is so only in this qualified sense: that it presents but an imperfect image of their brilliancy, the ruins of their grandeur .."

[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma Fellowcraft Degree p.22 ]

"Masonry, successor to the Mysteries (Babel, Mythras, Tummuz, Whicka,etc.) still follows the ancient manor of teaching."

[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma Fellowcraft Degree p.22 ]

"These two divinities (Sun and Moon, Osiris and Isis, etc) were commonly symbolized by the generative parts of a man and a woman; to which in remote ages no idea of indecency was attached ; the Phallus (penis) and the Cteis (vagina), emblems of generation and production, and which, as such appeared in the Mysteries (I believe Masonry is the revival of these). The Indian Lingam was the union of both, as were the boat and mast and the point within the circle." (key Masonic symbols)

[ Albert Pike "Morals and Dogma," 24th Degree, p. 401 ]

http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/Masonry/freemansonry_conspiracy_within.htm

God bless...in Jesus name,

Mike

 

[frewtloop]

Do the scouts forbid the name Jesus Christ to be spoken of, prayed to, or referred to as being god?

If you must tell the story, at least tell it all. Most critics state this in the same one-sided manner in which you just did. "Jesus" is no more forbidden in prayer than "Allah" or "Krishna" would be. And the word "forbidden" carries negative connotations that are simply not there in practice. In fact, you may as well say "George Bush" is "forbidden" as part of lodge conversation--but that would be technically incorrect as well. Religion and politics are simply not open for discussion during the time the lodge is open. Any of the various names for God used by any of the various religions are not used in prayer simply as a courtesy and recognition that people of other faiths may be present. It is no more than would be asked of participants in a community prayer on a special day, or of members of an ecumenical group who address social concerns yet begin with prayer.

General Albert Pike wrote those words in a work called: Morals and Dogma in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, 1871. At the time his title was the Grand commander of the Supreme Council, of the Scottish Rite in Washington D.C. This book is revered by occult groups across the globe, and most masons have never read it, let alone understood it. If they did understand it, there's a good possibility they would leave the craft. It deals with the occult origins of the symbols, initiations, and rituals of Freemasonry.

Perhaps you missed my post on the subject as well. Here is part of it:

In preparing this work, the Grand Commander has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less.

Still, perhaps half of it is his own; and, in incorporating here the thoughts and words of others, he has continually changed and added to the language, often intermingling, in the same sentences, his own words with theirs. . . . He claims, therefore, little of the merit of authorship, and has not cared to distinguish his own from that which he has taken from other sources, being quite willing that every portion of the book, in turn, may be regarded as borrowed from some old and better writer.

The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyong the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottsh Rite uses the word “Dogma” in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only requred of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. Of course, the ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations are not embodied as part of the doctrines of the Rite; but because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects, and because nothing so conclusively proves the radical difference between our human and the animal nature, as the capacity of the human mind to entertain such speculations in regard to itself and the Deity.

The first priority in reading any book, and one most people neglect to their own detriment, should be to read through the preface at least once to get a feel for the author's purpose in writing. Pike makes it clear he has entered most of what he includes in the book as "ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations." He makes it equally clear he has borrowed so much that he doesn't make any claim to being the "author." In our day and time, with stricter standards on such borrowing, it would be called plagiarism. But above all, he has laid his own work bare to whatever the reader wishes to make of it, says anyone is free to accept or reject anything therein. So you are in error from the outset, in taking what is fully intended as a subjective work and offering objective criticisms.

You need to be careful how you use the quotation marks when quoting one source quoting another. You began, "The majority of masons....," with a beginning quote mark and no quote mark at the end of your paragraph. Then the next paragraph begins with a full quote mark also, leaving the reader with the impression that the entire first paragraph was also to be attributed to Pike, when it actually came from the website you quoted from. Perhaps you simply copied and pasted from the original, in which case the error would be the fault of the website and not yours. That's something to watch for as well, I have found most antimasonic websites to be pretty deliberate in all sorts of methods of mischaracterization. The following quote you lifted is a good case in point:

"Though Masonry is identical with the ancient Mysteries, it is so only in this qualified sense: that it presents but an imperfect image of their brilliancy, the ruins of their grandeur .."

The dots tell you the one quoting has decided what was omitted was not worth your viewing. Look at dots with skepticism, they are often (and especially so with antimasonic sites) the tools of slick editors to remove things that go against their attampts at "proof." Not willing to let things stand as they are, they feel they must snip and cut to tighten up their points lest they fall from inability to stand on their own. The quote above finishes this way:

and a system that has experienced progressive alterations, the fruits of social events, political circumstances, and the ambitious imbecility of its improvers.

The sentence as it began seemed to be leading toward a suggestion that Masonry sought to make itself a renewal of the ancient mysteries, an attempt to refine them. When the result was not what this particular reader anticipated, he simply snipped away the part about such improvement being done by those who were "imbecilic."

I see you are not above misquoting as well:

General Albert Pike wrote those words in a work called: Morals and Dogma in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, 1871. At the time his title was the Grand commander of the Supreme Council, of the Scottish Rite in Washington D.C. This book is revered by occult groups across the globe, and most masons have never read it, let alone understood it. If they did understand it, there's a good possibility they would leave the craft. It deals with the occult origins of the symbols, initiations, and rituals of Freemasonry. It is also a handbook for degree initiation, as it details them all up to the 33rd degree, which was invented by Pike himself, some say in order to have a higher degree than the president, who ceremoniously receives the 32nd degree if elected.....Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity....an outer organization concealing an inner Brotherhood of the elect...it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum. [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']

~Manly P Hall 33rd degree, Lectures on Ancient, p.433]

You include words from the website author and run them in with Manly Hall's words, with no distinction whatsoever. Hall's words did not actually begin until "Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity...." But perhaps I am in error, did you contact Mr. Melanson and obtain his permission to do so? If so, I stand corrected.

Just about the entirety of your contentions, along with those of the website cited, are easily refuted by Pike's own statement in his preface. Simply ignore his own comments about the nature of his book, and it becomes an easy thing to misunderstand and/or mischaracterize it.

TW

 

[Jacob Webber]

(Of course, it's secret! I couldn't go in there to a meeting or witness an intiation could I? Nor could any non-Mason. One of my Masonic books event talks about it!! They say that the person is not to divulge any of the secrets. "As a Freemason, there are other excellencies of character" and these are "Secrecy, Fidelity, and Obedience." It goes on to say that the Mason is never to divulge any of the "Masonic secrets" that may be entrusted to them. Elsewhere are other references to secrets.)

Actually there are certain times you can go. But again It is not a secret Frat it is just a Frat that has Secrets just like a Business You can come in walk around all you want but when a meeting is taking place you will be asked to leave because you are not a part of that company.

(My grandmother died in 1970. I'll have to ask her about my grandfather's funeral when I see her in heaven. Fortunately, I have not relied on salvation as taught by or implied in the Masonic Lodge to get to heaven.)

It is good you have not relied on a Salvation taught or implied by the Masonic Lodge because there is none.

(First of all, a slight different view does not mean a different faith. A different faith is one that denies the essentials of the Christian faith or is not Chirstian at all.)

I you believe you can lose your salvation you have taken power away from Christ this denies Christ his power and would be considered a different faith. While in the Church you have people there who think Christ was just another guy that He died but they do not believe in his diviness. They are taking atrabutes away from Christ and you are in worship with them. We call them the Lost without Christ.


(Nothing you have posted has changed my mind about Freemasonry. It is an organization that denies being religious yet teaches religious things, quotes from the Bible, and avoids the name of Christ. That is evil to me.)

I am not here to change your mind it is already made up. But you are wrong abot the Lodge not mentioning Christ. Do some research on the York Rite and the Knights Templar and see who they feel about Christ. Do not just goto to anti-masonic sites but the pro-masonic sites as well check both sides and see.

 

[Eladar]

Freemasonry only teaches you how to be a better person while you are here on Earth.

How to be a 'better' person without Christ is meaningless. Praying to a 'God' and not the God of Abraham/Jesus Christ specifically is a perversion.

The Devil works in subtle ways to pervert God's people, or at least those who claim to be of God. Those who are God's will not fall to Satan's lies. Eventually God's people will turn from their sin and follow God.

It is not the individual Church's fault if you choose to attend a church that accepts Freemasons. It is your fault for attending churches that allow Freemasons.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Freemaosnry does not stop me from witnessing the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ to anyone.

(How to be a 'better' person without Christ is meaningless. Praying to a 'God' and not the God of Abraham/Jesus Christ specifically is a perversion.)

Just because someone does not have Christ does not mean we should not teach Morals. There are pagan people all around us we have laws in this land to show poeple how to act. None of them mention Christ but they are still true. Freemasonry teaches anyone who joins it the following.

1. You can not get to Heaven thru Freemasonry
2. Hold your duty to God above Freemasonry
3. Hold your duty to your Family above Freemasonry
4. Be charitably to any person in the world that needs help.

These are just a few things Freemasonry Teaches.

(Praying to a 'God' and not the God of Abraham/Jesus Christ specifically is a perversion.)

You are simply wrong here. The Lord's Pray does not mention Jesus anywhere in it says Our Father. And which name of Jesus do we use there are a few you know. Jesus, Christ, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Isa, Joshua, and Yeshia. Which Specific name of Christ do we use to praise Him. How do you think God wants to be called should we call Him Elohym, YHWH, Yod Heh Veu Heh, The I Am, Lord I think it is answeres best by Jesus, Abba (Daddy)

Again Freemasonry does not tell you that you can not witness Christ to others. It only ask that will Business is being conducted in the Lodge that Religion and Politics are not to be descussed because people would be to busy arguing instead of helping those in need.

 

[frewtloop]

How to be a 'better' person without Christ is meaningless.

It is also "mentionless," since I have not seen anyone suggest trying it.

It is not the individual Church's fault if you choose to attend a church that accepts Freemasons. It is your fault for attending churches that allow Freemasons.

It's not a matter of a church "accepting Freemasons. It's a matter of a church accepting Christians, whether Freemason or not is not a relevant point in deciding that.

The Devil works in subtle ways to pervert God's people

Amen, he's got his hooks into quite a few of them now, convincing them to attack fellow Christians for belonging to the lodge.

TW

 

[Marcia]

You are right, I should post sources when I refer to them or quote from them. I apologize for not doing that.

This is the book I was quoting from:
_The Sussex Ritual of Craft Masonry_, published in London, 1989, pages 73, 174, 178-179. P. 73 talked about Masonic secrets, p. 174 has "in the name of Solomon," and the other pages are about Jacob's ladder and Faith, Hope and Charity.

I also have Mark Ritual No. 1. There is no publication info but it says "Grand Lodge of Mark Master Masons of England and Wales and Its District and Lodges Overseas."

Then there was the pamphlet which I did name, "The Bible in Freemasonry," published in 1975, A Lewis (Masonic Publishers)Ltd, reprinted 1980. I referred to page XXX in that about Christian references being expunged in 1816 from Freemasonry.

I have several other books, booklets and pamphlets, including from Rainbow, but I have not quoted from them.

Albert Pike and Manly P. Hall were occultists. All occultists know this. I knew about them when I was an astrologer. Both are quoted widely in occult literature. They are of the same ilk as Madame Blavatsky who founded the Theosophical Society, and many others who around that time were getting involved in esoteric occult philosophies. These philosophies talk about light, mention God, and sometimes Jesus.

Many were Luciferians, that is, they believe Lucifer really was the angel of light who was bringing wisdom to man. They were forerunners of what today has been called the New Age movement. The New Age movement, which has its superficial, glitzy side, is deeply rooted in occult belief systems.

What a lot of Christians don't realize is that the occult always borrows from the Bible, likes to quote the Bible, and often likes to appear pious. Occult philosophies will present moral teachings and allude to God but will never mention salvation through Christ alone. That is the one thing you can look for to see what they are up to.

I believe that in Freemasonry, which presents parts of the truth about man's condition, judgement of God, accepts Christless prayers, and teaches moral behavior, we see the Angel of Light at work. Despite protestations that Freemasonry is not a religion, it presents itself as such with its moral but Christless philosophies and religous language, while at the same time deying that it is. That is tricky because it can make someone think they are seeing things. That is exactly something the Angel of Light would do.

The fact that Christ has been expunged so thoroughly and prohibited in prayers, while other religious terms can be used and prayers can be said, speaks volumes about Freemasonry along with other evidence.

 

[Eladar]

Just because someone does not have Christ does not mean we should not teach Morals.

What is wordly morallity without Christ? How loving is it to teach worldly morality, but not true morality in Christ?

All you are doing is teaching a lie.

Either you are teaching God's morality or you are teaching a version of Satan's morality.

(Praying to a 'God' and not the God of Abraham/Jesus Christ specifically is a perversion.)

You are simply wrong here. The Lord's Pray does not mention Jesus anywhere in it says Our Father. And which name of Jesus do we use there are a few you know. Jesus, Christ, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Isa, Joshua, and Yeshia. Which Specific name of Christ do we use to praise Him. How do you think God wants to be called should we call Him Elohym, YHWH, Yod Heh Veu Heh, The I Am, Lord I think it is answeres best by Jesus, Abba (Daddy)

I see you do believe that all religious roads lead to the same God. The same logic is easily used to insert any deity.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Again the do some reasearch on the Knights Templar and see how they feel about Christ. You will be suprised at How Christ is presented in the KT as the Savior.

(The fact that Christ has been expunged so thoroughly and prohibited in prayers, while other religious terms can be used and prayers can be said, speaks volumes about Freemasonry along with other evidence.)

Again Christ has not been taken out in my opnion read the book Freemasonry and the Southern Baptist Convention by DR. Gary Leazer.