Freewill and OSAS

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: The effects of ones original pardon are made of no effect due to subsequent transgressions.

Amy: If this is so, then you must be saved over and over and over again.

HP: I do not in reality believe that is true, although Scripture does give the command at least in one place to do ones first works over again. Salvation is not like turning on and of a water spout. I hesitate to illustrate, for I know the limitations of them, but I will in this case. Salvation consists of three parts. It is the entering in of a relationship through the washing away of the guilt of all past sins. It is the daily walk we have with the Lord and also encompasses our final judgment God says we all will stand before Him in and give an account fro every deed done in the flesh and every idle word spoken. Salvation encompasses all three areas. It is NOT simple the entering in, but salvation is a process that will not be culminated until the day of judgment in its entirety. Yes we can know we are saved today, but that is by faith. Faith cannot exist where absolute knowledge exists. We are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we be of the faith. That is an ongoing process.
In illustration it might be likened to a marriage contract in some limited sense. When we violate the marriage contract, we do not necessarily have to get married all over again although I can assure you that if you remain unrepentant, refusing to cease from those actions that violate the trust marriage is built upon, you will not find yourself in the end married. God affords to man grace. He does not under most conditions that I am aware of mete out exacting penalties on the spot, or cast away forever immediately those that He loves. What He does do is to warn those with ears to turn from their selfish and wicked ways, believer or not, and warns all that NO one guilty of sin will go without a certain penalty in the end if one fails to turn from such sin and repent. For instance. we are all warned, unbeliever and believer, that “1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

The question is not whether or not we lose our salvation when we sin, but rather it should be, will we be found in Him in the last day with our relationship intact as we stand before the Judge of the Earth, if we remain in a state of sin and selfishness, refusing to turn from our sin in sincere repentance.

Amy: What are the conditions God requires for us to keep our salvation? Scripture?

HP: You know the Scriptures Amy. What good will it do for me to quote them to you just to tell us that they always mean someone else? Take the Scripture above if you wish. Tell me Amy. What are some of the conditions implied in that passage?
Quote:

HP: The litany of Scriptural evidence has been posted more times than I can count. BR has led the charge with his numerous passages that show froth forgiveness revoked, yet to no avail with those that desire to believe otherwise.

Amy: There is a condition. We must have faith. Saved by grace through faith.

HP: Very good. Why stop there? Can you think of any passages that mention repentance, or steadfastness to the end, or of keeping of the commandments?

Amy: You imply that constant repenting and adhering to the so called warnings will keep you saved. That is a doctrine of works.

HP: That is true in a sense, but again that does not mean that any of those things are meritorious of are the grounds of our salvation period. The grace of God keeps us saved, but it will not be applied to our hearts and lives apart from willing obedience. Our obedience in and of itself cannot save us, but neither will we be saved apart from it.

Amy: The decree was carried out. But God did not decree for Daniel to go into the fire. Therefore, He didn't revoke anything.

HP: OK. Exclude whatever words you so desire. Just the same, the decree that you say was irrevocable did not have its desired effect. Scripture tells us that if we do not remain faithful and refrain from certain behavior and intents, that we will find our forgiveness, held by faith in this world, as of no effect when we stand before God in judgment. Again, read the one passage above for a brief glimpse into some of the issues that will indeed affect ones final standing before God, regardless of what they think they have received by faith in this world.

Amy: There are no warnings from God that say we will ever lose our salvation which was once and eternally secured by Christ and His work.

HP:I agree. None say that we ‘will,’ but many produce the possibility that it can happen. I happen to believe it is far more common that a mere possibility. “Many” shall fall away as the last days approach, to the end that it is even asked , will faith be found on the earth when He returns?

 

[Amy.G]

HP, we are:

Justified (by faith in Christ, who has fullfilled the law and satisfied God's wrath against sin.

Sanctified (this is the process by which we grow and mature in Christ. It continues until our physical death)

Glorified (this is when we are redeemed and receive glorified bodies)

This is salvation in it's complete form.

But you are justified only once. You are justified for all eternity. That's why it's called "eternal life" not temporary life.

Christ did the "works" (fulfilled the Law)

Your righteousness is as filthy rags even after you're saved. They have no merit in securing your salvation or maintaining it.

As believers we will bear fruit, but each one of us will bear a different amount.
Mat 13:8 "But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

This is part of the sanctification process. We will either gain or lose rewards at the judgement, but our eternal salvation is never at risk.

When we sin, we do not lose our salvation, but God chastizes us in this life.
Hbr 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
Hbr 12:8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.


Hp, since you believe it's possible to lose your salvation, is it possible to be saved again?

How do you know when you've crossed the line? How disobedient do you have to be? One sin, two?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Hp, since you believe it's possible to lose your salvation, is it possible to be saved again?

HP: One will have eternally lost their salvation only if they first have entered into a hope of eternal life, left their first love, refuse to repent, and find themselves in that state at the judgment. They will find that the forgiveness they once received.

I do not like to use, nor do I believe I have used, the term ‘lost ones salvation’ when speaking of persons in this present world. How can they lose something that they only hold by faith that in reality is not consummated in an unchangeable and final form until the world to come? I will say again that I would say that if they disobey and refuse to repent and turn in this world, that they will not find themselves in the standing they might have thought they were in this world.

Amy: How do you know when you've crossed the line? How disobedient do you have to be? One sin, two?

HP: The Holy Spirit and Scripture faithfully warns if we have ears to hear. What would one that loves God think that love can be measured by anything other than holiness before Him? “Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect” is the admonition of Scripture. “Without holiness, no man shall see God.”

What if I would ask you, how would one know when he or she has crossed the line in marriage? How disobedient do you need to be? Does it take one sin, two, or how many? I would think that one that tries and walk that line is doomed for a failure in marriage. Love demands complete obedience and surrender.

We have but one standard to follow. Love the Lord with our heart, mind, soul, strength, and our neighbor as ourselves. Holiness unto the Lord is our only standard and rule of conduct.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
When Jesus was alive - he spoke to "Forgiveness revoked" Matt 18

Amy G -
There is no such thing as "forgiveness revoked".
The unforgiving man in Matthew 18 was punished,

You have stated well what the "OSAS" POV "needs to have found" in Matt 18. Which is that the unforgiving servant REMAINED forgiven - but had "some discipline added" as a "corrective measure".

I have also stated that the Arminian position that consideres OSAS to be merely man-made-tradition would "need" to find that Matt 18 explicitly states that the "original debt" is once again "owed" by the unforgiving servant. Because when what WAS OWED is "ONCE AGAIN" owed - we have "forgiveness revoked". Words that say "Until he should REPAY ALL that WAS owed"

Now let's look to the "details in the text" to see if the objective unbiased reader will see in this scripture example "forgiveness revoked" or "forgiveness RETAINED though some discipline is ADDED". We are looking for "he continued to be free of all that WAS OWED"

This is where "the details in the text" will lead the reader to "truth".

Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:Bob
When Jesus was alive - he spoke to "Branches IN ME that are REMOVED and cast into the fire" John 15.

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Amy G

I could not find a verse that said this.
Here is what the Bible says:

Jhn 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned

These are people who have never had eternal life in Christ.

You have done well in making the point that the OSAS POV needs to find that this text does NOT indicate that branches IN CHRIST - are being "taken away".


John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said Quote:
When Jesus was alive - he spoke to "Ground that springs TO LIFE and then dies" in Matt 13 -- parable of the sower.

in Christ,

Bob

Amy G said
"Springs to life" is not found in this parable.

The scripture says:
Mat 13:5 "Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
Mat 13:6 "But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

Once again you point out that the need of OSAS is to find that nothing but the good ground "produces life" -- nothing else produces growth.


#1. What is not alive "can not wither away".

#2. Dead ground does not "spring up" nor "grow up" - only a living plant does that.

That which "grows" is alive.

#3. Dead ground is not "choked by weeds" rather "living plants" are choked by weeds - and remain in an weakened state so that they they do not bear fruit.

Luke 8
5"The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up.
6"Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.
7"Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out.
8"Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear



Matt 13
Behold, the sower went out to sow;
4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
5"Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6"But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7"Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
8"And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty



Mark 4
3 "Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow;
4 as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up.
5 "Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil.
6 "And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 "Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.
8 "Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."

 

[AAA]

Is it possible that some use the term OSAS when they mean they believe in the security of the believer? I, for one, reject the doctrine of OSAS. I do not believe the Bible bears it out in either Old or New Testaments.

However, I fully believe and place my trust in the security of the believer (John 10:28,29, etc).

The difference is this: a believer is an obeyer, a doer of the word. So long as one abides in Christ through faithful obedience to Scripture, he has nothing to fear.

I think OSAS leaves itself open to some who might take advantage of their supposed indestructible state and engage in willful sin, all the while comforting themselves with the idea that, "Though what I'm doing is wrong, I'll still go to heaven because I was saved when I was younger..." or something like that.

Now I don't recall ever hearing such taught from a pulpit, (not first-hand at least), even by those who espouse OSAS, but I've seen many people whose actions said as much, and quite loudly. Some have even said as much when questioned about their actions.

I agree with the idea that salvation can be given up, but If a person gives up their salvation then we have to ask the question: were they ever saved to begin with? I do not believe that we can lose our salvation, because the doctrine of the "security of the believer" is so clearly taught in the Old and the new testiments....

 

[BobRyan]

#1. You can not give up what you never had.
#2. Saying that the sign or proof that they never had something is that they gave that something up -- is to use a circular argument.