Freewill and OSAS

[Amy.G]

In Romans 2 Paul says that in the future "God WILL judge secrets of all men through the man Jesus Christ".

In 2 Cor 5 Paul says "WE MUST ALL stand" future tense "before the judgment seat of Christ" and that we will be given the just reward NOT just for "good deeds" or lack of them but ALSO the legal reward for "BAD deeds" as Paul already stated in Romans 2.

in Dan 7 we see the classic example of JUDGMENT that is FUTURE to the fall and division of the Roman Empire (long after the cross) and is PRIOR to the 2nd coming.

At that judgment -- we see "Judgment passed in favor of the saints".

It is pretty hard to argue against the warnings in scripture on the basis that that FUTURE judgment of the saints is... "over"??

in Christ,

Bob

When Christ said "it is finished" as He was on the cross, He was referring to the legal transaction between He and the Father. We are already justified. Our account has been PAID IN FULL.

"It is finished" was another way of saying "paid in full". This was common language used in that day to mean that one's account was cleared. It was stamped on debts that were paid, making it "legal". It could not be "revoked".

 

[BobRyan]

I have seen various people on the BB go over and over those texts with you, all to no avail. There is no point in repeating it.

As I said - that is an avenue of response available to all sides of any given topic.

How do you deal with the Ephesians passages?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What does Paul mean when he says the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance?

1. He surely MUST mean that HE HIMSELF is participating in that SAME sealing process -- can we not all agree on this simple point?

2. And then when HE says OF HIMSELF "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to OTHERS I MYSELF should be disqualified" 1Cor 9 (end) he is not arguing AGAINST the teaching of Eph 1 on the sealing - but is showing us that this is a "process" and at each step in that process "the warnings of God can not be ignored".

the Problem I have with the OSAS solution is that it is continually in need of finding a way to avoid/negate/nullify the warnings of scripture against the very thing that OSAS claims "can not happen".

Paul speaks to Timothy "TAKE pains with these things BE ABSORBED in them because AS YOU DO THIS you will ENSURE SALVATION for both you AND those who hear you".

Pretty hard to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When Christ said "it is finished" as He was on the cross, He was referring to the legal transaction between He and the Father. We are already justified. Our account has been PAID IN FULL.

"It is finished" was another way of saying "paid in full". This was common language used in that day to mean that one's account was cleared. It was stamped on debts that were paid, making it "legal". It could not be "revoked".

In 1John 2:2 we are told that the "Atoning Sacrifice" was complete at the cross (NIV) finished.

But in God's model of "Atonement" as we see in Lev 16 the "Atoning Sacrifice" of the Lamb (Lord's Goat) is key to the process of forgiveness -- SO ALSO is the role of the High Priest in Lev 16 key to the entire process of atonement. Not until BOTH the Sacrifice AND the High Priest's work is completed on the day of Atonement -- is the full Atonment ended.

Christ BEGAN His High Priestly work ADMINISTERING the blood sacrifice when HE went to heaven -according to Heb 8 and 9.

that means that the FUTURE judgment of the saints that God mentions in Dan 7 "is real" and can not be negated or undone.

That means the FUTURE judgement of the saints we are warned about in 2Cor 5 is "real" and does deal with "bad deeds" just as Romans 2 mentioned in that review of the FUTURE judgment.

that means the FUTURE Judgment at the end of time mentioned in Rev 14 "having an EVERLASTING GOSPEL to give to the world...saying FEAR God and give glory to Him for the hour of HIS judgment HAS come" is in fact a "real warning" that can not be undone.

These warnings are never mentioned in the group of the OSAS camp. They do not consider them a valid thing to mention to their flock.

That is pretty dangerous if you ask me.

Paul said in Romans 2 "According to my GOSPEL GOD WILL judge the secrets of mankind through the man Christ Jesus".

I believe him.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Bob, please answer the question.

What does "sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption" mean?

And how did Paul participate in this transaction? As has been shown to you, the "sealing" Paul refers to is an illustration of the sealing of documents by officials. The document that was sealed played no part in the sealing.

God has not sealed a document, but has sealed believers.

 

[BobRyan]

How "hard is it " for someone in the OSAS group to work and "fix" this text so that it no longer speaks to "forgiveness revoked"??


Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

 

[Amy.G]

Hbr 7:27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

 

[Amy.G]

I give up. Have a nice evening Bob.

:godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

Eph 1

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.


Eph 4
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you

Eph 2
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit


In Ephesians Paul describes a process of growing – being built up in Christ. A process that “starts with the promise” given by the “Holy Spirit of promise” regarding our “future inheritance” – one to be “received” in the future. And in that process we have the “sealing” of the Holy Spirit. A process that continues to the end of time. Notice in Rev 7 that the sealing of the saints is STILL going on – and the 4 winds of strife are restrained until that process is finished.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hbr 7:27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Indeed - his offering -- his "Atoning Sacrifice" was finished at the cross as we see in 1John 2:2 (NIV)

"HE is the ATONING Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world".

In Lev 16 we see that the "Atoning Sacrifice" is key to the whole forgiveness process of "Atonement" -- just as the High Priestly work is key -- where the blood is taken into the sanctuary and the High Priest then works in the behalf of the people to "make atonement" according to God's pattern.

in Heb 8-9 we see Christ "as our High Priest" taking up that part of the Gospel solution in our behalf - following the events of the cross.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JD: How do you square that with the verse that says "who hath resisted His will?" (reference availabe upon request)

HP: My first response would be ‘certainly not the ones that find themselves to be of the damned’…………….or did they?

 

[BobRyan]

I give up. Have a nice evening Bob.

:godisgood:

God's Blessings.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

HP: Could a thief break such a seal or could one deface the seal so as to render it null and void? Is there anything about the seal itself that makes it impossible for the security and authenticity of the seal to be rendered ineffective to secure its intended end?

If you know anything about the ancient king's seals...no, it is an impossibility. Nobody could get near it. That is why this language is used.

 

[webdog]

HP: As I stated, physical circumcision can be made of no effect due to disobedience. You are injecting the words ‘undone’ not I.

So you finally admits it remains, even though it is of no effect? Since salvation is referred to that, the salvation REMAINS. You added "to no effect" I might add.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I believe in free will, but not in OSAS. If OSAS is true that takes away free will. I do not see believing in free will as automatically believing in OSAS.

 

[BobRyan]

It is the only "consistent" positions for Arminians.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" is not "the Gospel promise of salvation", but "being FORGIVEN" is! -- No way to change that

Gal 5:4 "Severed from Christ, Fallen From Grace" is NOT how the Bible defines "salvation" - but being "JOINED to CHRIST" and "UNDER GRACE" is!.

John 15:1-9 "those who are IN CHRIST being removed from Christ and cast into the fire" -- "dying in the fire" is NOT how the Bible defines salvation but being "IN CHRIST" is!

Matt 13 - the "dead ground" that "springs to life" in the illustration of the sower "IS how the Bible defines salvation" but "withering and dying" (as we see with the Rocky ground in its final state) is not! The "produces no fruit" problem of the Thorny ground in Matt 13 is the same condition in John 15 that get's them "removed from Christ and burned in the fire".

(hint: -- this just never gets old)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

How do you deal with the Ephesians passages?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What does Paul mean when he says the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance?

What does Paul mean by being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit of promise?

What is the promise?

Good questions!

First let me say that these, like all passages, need to be read without a preconceived doctrine which we translate scripture through. Both you and I are prone to it and as long as we do this we will always come to the conclusion that our doctrine is right. Agreed?

The Holy Spirit is the official seal of God's ownership and the earnest of our inheritance.

A person becomes a child of God when he is born again. With it comes rights, responsibilities, and promises. OSAS advocates have assumed that this relationship can never be undone. For example, the OSAS group says that "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it" means that God saved and will keep you saved. However, Paul does not teach anywhere that this was based on some divine law that will must continue operative regardless of the conduct of the Philippians. His confidence at this point was based on their faithfulness. This is not the case in every letter that the Apostle Paul wrote. For example, the Galations seemed to be in danger of leaving Christ and being made perfect in the flesh. Paul does not give them a grand promise that "it's OK, because God is going to keep you no matter what".

The fact that we have an eanest payment from God is truly encouraging. It is always encouraging to receive an earnest payment, but to get one from God himself is especially wonderful. There is no doubting his side of the "deal".

From Websters 1828:
EARNEST, n. ern'est. Seriousness; a reality; a real event; as opposed to jesting or feigned appearance.
Hence earnest or earnest-money is a first payment or deposit giving promise or assurance of full payment. Hence the practice of giving an earnest to ratify a bargain.

OSAS proponents say that this is a one sided deal that only God plays a part in. That is a misconception which will inevitably lead one to unconditional election and unconditional eternal security and with it the need to interpret many passages according to it. It is clear that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH and we are kept by the power of THROUGH FAITH.

I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Our inheritance is incorruptible annd will not fade away. God's promise is sound. We have received an earnest payment beyond any payment this world can afford. If we turn our back on it would be the height of folly. It is hard to imagine anyone would do it. But the fact is that we received it by faith and we keep it by faith. Remember, faith is not a work. If it were would have something to boast about. It is a wonderful gift from God that all we need to do is believe!

 

[Crabtownboy]

It is the only "consistent" positions for Arminians.

I do not see it that way. If OSAS is correct, than free will does not exist after a person is saved.

From my research the first person to espouse the idea of "once saved, always saved" was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory. Prior to Calvin, the unanimous consent of the early Christians was that a person is capable of losing his salvation by committing mortal sin, as John spoke about in 1 John 5:16–17.

I doubt that you would call Calvin an Arminian.

 

[BobRyan]

Which is my point exactly.:thumbs:

 

[webdog]

I do not see it that way. If OSAS is correct, than free will does not exist after a person is saved.

This is not a logical conclusion. I can have the free will to drink poison or not, but the consequences that result is not "free", nor does it undermine the free will to drink the poison in the first place.

From my research the first person to espouse the idea of "once saved, always saved" was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century.

You need to go back a little further...to when Jesus was alive