Freewill and OSAS

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Does the will cease to be free as a believer? What makes it impossible for the will to make ‘shipwreck of the faith?’

Webdog, is it impossible to make shipwreck of the faith? Do we as believers not possess a free will?

 

[webdog]

Webdog, is it impossible to make shipwreck of the faith? Do we as believers not possess a free will?

We can, and we do...but it doesn't cause us to be "un-born" or "un-circumcised". There will most definately be repercussions, but 'unbirth' and 'uncircumcision' are not a possibility.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: So you believe a circumcision can be undone? That is not real strong logic to stand on.

HP: As I stated, physical circumcision can be made of no effect due to disobedience. You are injecting the words ‘undone’ not I.

WD: God is not a God of confusion. His Word calls it a birth and circumcision. We know what both entail. To try to supernaturally explain that both can be un-done when God uses language like "everlasting" and "eternal" defies all logic and common sense.

HP: You simply are reading into the text a presupposition and a correlation that is not made. All illustrations have their limits. Show us by Scripture that 'once born always born.'

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: We can, and we do...but it doesn't cause us to be "un-born" or "un-circumcised". There will most definately be repercussions, but 'unbirth' and 'uncircumcision' are not a possibility.

HP: Show us in Scripture where it is stated that it is an impossibility. I know the presupposition you are reading into the text, but where does it state that ‘impossibility’ you say is there?

 

[Amy.G]

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

HP: Very true, Just the same, it simply states for the purpose of day of redemption you were sealed. How does this support OSAS? You have to read into the word ‘sealed’ the presupposition of OSAS to see it as supporting it. It is not derived directly from the text nor does the text imply OSAS or that the ‘sealing’ indicated cannot be made of no effect by disobedience without repentance. “Unless ye repent, ye shall ALL likewise perish.”

 

[trustitl]

And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Is it fair to say that the brother who stayed could have been considered "alive" because he was with his father? Could it then be true that the "prodigal" son was alive until he left and then became "dead"?

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Very true, Just the same, it simply states for the purpose of day of redemption you were sealed. How does this support OSAS? You have to read into the word ‘sealed’ the presupposition of OSAS to see it as supporting it. It is not derived directly from the text nor does the text imply OSAS or that the ‘sealing’ indicated cannot be made of no effect by disobedience without repentance. “Unless ye repent, ye shall ALL likewise perish.”

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


That just about says it all, in addition to the other scripture that I gave you.

The seal that Paul is referring to was used by an official to "seal" a letter or document that represented the authority of the one who stamped the seal. This made the document secure and authentic and showed ownership and authority.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


That just about says it all, in addition to the other scripture that I gave you.

The seal that Paul is referring to was used by an official to "seal" a letter or document that represented the authority of the one who stamped the seal. This made the document secure and authentic and showed ownership and authority.

HP: Could a thief break such a seal or could one deface the seal so as to render it null and void? Is there anything about the seal itself that makes it impossible for the security and authenticity of the seal to be rendered ineffective to secure its intended end?

 

[trustitl]

HP: Could a thief break such a seal or could one deface the seal so as to render it null and void? Is there anything about the seal itself that makes it impossible for the security and authenticity of the seal to be rendered ineffective to secure its intended end?

You beat me to it.:thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Could a thief break such a seal or could one deface the seal so as to render it null and void? Is there anything about the seal itself that makes it impossible for the security and authenticity of the seal to be rendered ineffective to secure its intended end?

It's a done deal HP. Rejoice and be glad! We have been born again into God's family with the right to be called children of the living God! God has put His seal of authority, security and ownership on you. You have the spiritual DNA of God the Father. Now, do you doubt the integrity of God? His seal is His word and promise that you are going to be, not might be, redeemed! And this seal is the Holy Spirit.

Praise :jesus:

PS. The only "theif" is Satan. And he has no authority over God.

 

[trustitl]

Spititual DNA? Not quite sure where you came up with that one, but how exactly does it effect freewill and OSAS?

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

Webdog, is it impossible to make shipwreck of the faith? Do we as believers not possess a free will?

Webdog
We can, and we do...but it doesn't cause us to be "un-born" or "un-circumcised". There will most definately be repercussions, but 'unbirth' and 'uncircumcision' are not a possibility.

IF "making a shipwreck of faith" is in fact "another way to be SAVED" then why is it in Romans 11 the same author that WARNS AGAINST making a shipwreck of faith ALSO says "do not be arrogant but FEAR for you STAND ONLY by your FAITH... IF He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you".

Does not sound like "another form of being saved" to me.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: You beat me to it.

HP: Sorry. Don’t let that stop you from putting it in your own words.

 

[TCGreek]

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


That just about says it all, in addition to the other scripture that I gave you.

The seal that Paul is referring to was used by an official to "seal" a letter or document that represented the authority of the one who stamped the seal. This made the document secure and authentic and showed ownership and authority.

Good points, Amy. I have a post on my blog on the three purpose of a seal in ancient times.

source material

A seal was to:

1. Authenticate

2. Secure

3. Show ownership

And we find all these in the sealing of the Holy Spirit of the believer.

 

[Amy.G]

Spititual DNA? Not quite sure where you came up with that one, but how exactly does it effect freewill and OSAS?

:laugh: It just popped into my head. The point I was trying to make is that we are God's children (those who are born again) and that cannot be changed anymore than I can change my "natural" father because I have his DNA.
Maybe it was a bad comparison, but I hope you get my point.

 

[BobRyan]

. Once we are born, we cannot be unborn.

Lucifer did not need to be "unborn" OR "uncreated" to fall into sin and be lost though created as one of the "sons of God" (Job 1).

Adam did not need to be "unborn" or "uncreated" to fall into sin and be lost through as one of the "sons of God" according to Luke 3.

"sons of God" in this case referring to those created beings in the family of God who are made directly by God as opposed to being born to other parents.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Is it fair to say that the brother who stayed could have been considered "alive" because he was with his father? Could it then be true that the "prodigal" son was alive until he left and then became "dead"?

Amy,

The prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son, but he was considered dead. Any thoughts?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Lucifer did need to be "unborn" OR "uncreated….

HP: Good point BR.:thumbs:

 

[trustitl]

Thought I would give you one to Bob. :thumbs: