Freewill bites the dust

[skypair]

So a lost, God-hating, prideful, boasting man can be saved if he humbles himself, right? Now just how is he going to do that if he is a lost, God-hating, prideful, boasting man?

Same way a supposedly "elect" man does. Or maybe not, eh? Maybe the "elect" man is like the Pharisee who comes to the altar and says, "I'm glad I am not as this lost man who has to humble himself before you and pray for "election." Is that your point?

Can God save a proud man?

With God -- "all things are possible!" :laugh:

Can God change a proud man into a humble man?

Absolutely! Look at Paul! You were just kidding, right?

If so, how does God change him?

CONVICTION changes him, J.D. the Holy Spirit! Man realizes there is a decision to make -- a "side" to take. God changing man is called "sanctification." This FOLLOWS justification in which man turns from self to God. First a man must CHOOSE God over self. THEN God will begin to sanctify.

Can he be saved before or after God changes him?

BEFORE! You are mistaking "reformation" with "salvation" (which, now that I think of it, why wouldn't you! :laugh: All you know is "let's reform the Catholic faith" not "let's seek the salvation of God.")

If he can change on his own, he doesn't need grace, right?

He CAN'T change on his own. He CAN change his mind/repent of self unto salvation. Then God can change/sanctify him. It is clear throughout this discourse of yours that you don't think man needs to be justified in order to receive eternal life, do you?

I can always tell when synergists are feeling desparate. They start speaking in tongues.

Yeah, smearing others is a always good substitute for logic, isn't it? Just dismiss others perspectives and the "truth" will go away, won't it. Better watch out -- the "evil one" is just about to steal your "seed" Mr "Wayside!" Mt 13

skypair

 

[skypair]

Keith M

Thank you, brother! Pretty clear if you're not wearing someone else's glasses, ain't it? :laugh:

skypair

 

[webdog]

Free-willers: If what you say is true, then we're all robots and God controls everything we do, including sin.

Npetreley, johnp is a calvinist and believes this same thing.

 

[johnp.]

A quick reply Allan.

Your problem here is that God did not command men to believe in Him.

Of course not, my bad as they say.

webdog. Npetreley, johnp is a calvinist and believes this same thing. I believe this: we're all robots and God controls everything we do, including sin.

I wouldn't put it quite like this but total control over everything belongs to God and He exercises that control with an iron rod. Including sin? Why does God still blame us for who resists His will man? Yes, including sin. God is Sovereign.

I don't know why it has 'Free-willers:' before it though. Any help?

I am told I am a determinist. I am also told that most Calivinists today are indeterminists who border on dualism but I guess that best left unsaid?

john.

 

[whatever]

Keith,

I do not know of a single Calvinist who chooses predestination and therefore denies "whosoever will". The Bible teaches both and we affirm both. You assume way too much.

 

[Allan]

A quick reply Allan.

Your problem here is that God did not command men to believe in Him.

Of course not, my bad as they say.

Where did I say this??

And IF I did (which is simply a typo) just remove the work 'not'.

Your problem here is that God DID command men to believe in Him

 

[johnp.]

Hello Sularis.

If faith lies dormant within us Sularis why do we need to receive it as a gift? Eph 2:8-9.

To answer your question - faith isnt the gift in Ephesians 2:8-9

If faith lies dormant within us... should have been my first question.

Tell me how faith can lie dormant please. HEB 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (KJV)
HEB 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (NIV)
What do you think faith is? According to scripture faith is a certainty and I find it hard to imagine a certainty laying dormant? A faith in a state of rest is not faith, faith is active. It is a sure hope and a certainty. Salvation arrives at the point of this certainty and this certainty is by God's good grace. Only He can open the eyes of men born blind. Only Spirit can give birth to spirit. Praise Him.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (NIV)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)

It's all the same. Being saved and the mechanism used is here. You can't say certainty is dormant, not proper logic old chap. Like saying the fire is cold or the light is dark. What God says is that He gives His chosen certainty to each as He sees fit. By grace He gifts this certainty in a man and commends the man for it. It is because of him that I am in Christ Jesus... 1 Cor 1:30
That is the gift. Certainty and assurance is faith is salvation is being born again is justification is regeneration and the start of a transformation that will end with us being like Him. Only He can open the eyes of men born blind. Only Spirit can give birth to spirit. I was dead, He made me alive.

What you think?

john.

 

[johnp.]

Sorry Allan It was meant for MB. Forgive me.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Your problem here is that God DID command men to believe in Him

Words. What I mean is that there is no general call for all men to believe in Jesus. I can see no reason to obligate all who hear the call and charge them with responsibility if they refuse. I would never tell a stranger that Jesus died for his sins, it might be true, it might not be. There would be no legality in obligating sinners when no atonement was given for them? It is impossible to be clean unless an atonement has been made, a person cannot be saved without an atonement. Same the otherway round. If an atonement has been made it is impossible not to be saved, one is. That God controls a man's beliefs still stands. That He draws a man to Jesus or hardens his heart is always His and He applies Himself on each of us. Rom 9:18 ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

How's that Allan? Does that answer the point?

john.

 

[johnp.]

MB.
Love me or go to Hell is a restriction of free will isn't it?

Yes it is but it does not restrict a voluntary will.

And the difference between voluntary and free please? Would it be no difference? voluntary adj 1 done or acting by free choice (Chambers)

Men today are procreated. Adam and Eve were created.

Yes I know.

Your parents are responsible for bringing you in to the world. It was there choice not God's. Or maybe there accident. God gave us the organs to produce offspring.

Job 1:19 It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!" 20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
Job knew differently.

Hell and sin are both consequences of sin. Sin was caused as was hell by the Law. In order that there be rules there must be consequence.

Why must there be rules? Why create Adam if the result was to be Hell if He isn't willing that any go there? It is a contradiction. If God is not willing that any perish why did He not make an escape for the fallen angels? Not only that but you constrain God. The reason people go to Hell is because God chose that for them. No? Again, Job knew, he said that even if he was innocent he would still need God's mercy,
JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
A Judge to judge the innocent while the innocent plead for mercy. Does that offend your sense of justice?

It seems your definition of Sovereignty is absolute control.

God is Sovereign. You have men deciding their own destinies so God isn't Sovereign over men's destinies. This is an alien concept not known in scripture.
JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty. 21 "Although I am blameless, I have no concern for myself; I despise my own life. 22 It is all the same; that is why I say, `He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.' 23 When a scourge brings sudden death, he mocks the despair of the innocent. 24 When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?
That heavy or what?

If God controlled everything then He is responsible for ever thing even our sins. He would be responsible for all the abortions and child molesting that go on in the world.

If it is not he, then who is it? JOB 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

Your problem here is that God did not command men to believe in Him.

The law still stands for those who do not accept Jesus Christ. One must love the Lord their God with every part of their being or one will go to Hell to be tortured forever and ever. Is He not God of everyman regardless of what everyman believes? Those who hear the law are commanded to obey it. Love the Lord your God is the command.

john.

 

[Andy T.]

Look -- put all the "spin" on it you like. That's NOT an intelligible argument.

How do you make it out that we ALL don't have that "disposition within ourselves??" You know what you are doing? You're running in circles. If it's not pride, it's our humility that is our error.

Face the facts for once, will ya? God calls ALL people to Him by His Spirit. Some respond -- some can't help but think of SELF and say no to God, at least for now. Suppose you "hear" God 10 times and don't respond. Does that mean you are not "elect?" Then the 11 time you respond. So not you ARE "elect," right? Election hinges on response -- not on pride or humility or "forechosen" or anything else.

skypair

O.k., since our salvation hinges on our response, I am very glad that I responded the right way and am saved. I'm glad I had enough __________ (fill-in-the-blank) to respond the right way. As for those who did not respond the right way, God could have saved them if he wanted to, but he is more concerned about giving his creatures liberterian free will. He would rather see those people burn in hell than save them against their natural will.

 

[skypair]

O.k., since our salvation hinges on our response, I am very glad that I responded the right way and am saved. I'm glad I had enough __________ (fill-in-the-blank) to respond the right way. As for those who did not respond the right way, God could have saved them if he wanted to, but he is more concerned about giving his creatures liberterian free will. He would rather see those people burn in hell than save them against their natural will.

There ya go!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Your problem here is that God DID command men to believe in Him

Words. What I mean is that there is no general call for all men to believe in Jesus. I can see no reason to obligate all who hear the call and charge them with responsibility if they refuse.

Rom 1:17, my friend. "I am not ashamed of the gospel ... for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men ... the invisible things of Him are clearly seen ... so that they are without excuse!" There's your "general call." ALL hear and are responsible, john!

I would never tell a stranger that Jesus died for his sins, it might be true, it might not be.

You can say UNEQUIVOCABLY that they are atoned for, john. "...[A]nd not for ours only but for the sins of the WORLD." 1John 2:2

skypair

 

[MB]

Hi Whatever;

Keith,

I do not know of a single Calvinist who chooses predestination and therefore denies "whosoever will". The Bible teaches both and we affirm both. You assume way too much.

Doesn't God's foreknowledge eliminate both. The possibility of the whosoever will's, and the set in stone predestinated. I know I've read that someone believes that God's foreknowledge is why we do what we do. If this is so no whosoever can will anything that isn't already known by God. I don't believe this is true, but some do.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Andy;

O.k., since our salvation hinges on our response, I am very glad that I responded the right way and am saved. I'm glad I had enough __________ (fill-in-the-blank) to respond the right way. As for those who did not respond the right way, God could have saved them if he wanted to, but he is more concerned about giving his creatures liberterian free will. He would rather see those people burn in hell than save them against their natural will.

The right way is spelled out in scripture. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved. Belief is the condition. No belief, No Salvation. Can a man be saved who doesn't believe? We should at least agree on this.
MB

 

[Andy T.]

No belief, No Salvation. Can a man be saved who doesn't believe? We should at least agree on this.
MB

Yes, we agree on this, as I stated in one of my first posts on this thread.

For my last post, I was responding to Skypair and was using his reasoning to show the consequences of such reasoning.

 

[Blammo]

O.k., since our salvation hinges on our response, I am very glad that I responded the right way and am saved. I'm glad I had enough __________ (fill-in-the-blank) to respond the right way. As for those who did not respond the right way, God could have saved them if he wanted to, but he is more concerned about giving his creatures liberterian free will. He would rather see those people burn in hell than save them against their natural will.

We all agree that God could save all of mankind if He chose to. The difference is:

Non-cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is his fault for rejecting the free gift.

Cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is because God did not choose to save him. He could not possibly accept the free gift, it was not offered to him, and God would not enable him to accept it if it was.

 

[Andy T.]

We all agree that God could save all of mankind if He chose to. The difference is:

Non-cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is his fault for rejecting the free gift.

Cals believe, if a man goes to hell it is because God did not choose to save him. He could not possibly accept the free gift, it was not offered to him, and God would not enable him to accept it if it was.

No, if a man goes to hell it is because he is a sinner and deserves to go. God does not have to save anyone.

Under both systems, God chooses not to save some. Non-cals believe that God loves man's liberterian free will more than he loves having people in heaven (otherwise he would change their will to get them into heaven). The Calvinist believes that God loves having people in heaven, so he freed the will of many, in order to save them, because he loved them more than he loved them having 'free will' that was in bondage to sin.

 

[psalms109:31]

Salvation

The truth of the matter is we have good news through Jesus anyone can come.

So if you walk away you can only blame yourself, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the.

We should want to tell the whole world the hope they have in Jesus instead of hindering those who are trying to enter.

 

[Blammo]

No, if a man goes to hell it is because he is a sinner and deserves to go. God does not have to save anyone.

Yes, Andy, we agree on both. I did not say that ANY man deserves to be saved. The free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus is offered to sinners who deserve to go to hell.

Under both systems, God chooses not to save some. Non-cals believe that God loves man's liberterian free will more than he loves having people in heaven (otherwise he would change their will to get them into heaven). The Calvinist believes that God loves having people in heaven, so he freed the will of many, in order to save them, because he loved them more than he loved them having 'free will' that was in bondage to sin.

So, you believe the non-cal position is that God plays absolutely no part in saving men? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God - For by grace are you saved through faith - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved - etc. - are not given by God? Is that what you think we believe?

I know you believe what I said you believe. You just said the same with different words. God chooses to change some into believers, so he can have many people in heaven, while leaving the rest on the path to hell. And, I realize, in the non-cal position, God allows many to remain on the path to hell also.

Again, the difference is:

Non-cal - Man could have responded in a positive way to the gospel instead of continuing on his way to hell. (man's fault, not God's choice)

Cal - Man is on the path to hell, where he will remain, unless God chooses to enable him to respond in a positive way to the gospel. (still man's fault, also God's choice)