Freewill bites the dust

[npetreley]

1 Kings 22:20 has God asking who will entice and sends him off to entice. Entice means to tempt.

1KI 22:22 " `By what means?' the LORD asked.
" `I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" `You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. `Go and do it.'
1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Compare that to...

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Both are true. God did not tempt anyone in 1 Kings. God did not lie. He assigned these tasks to those who are subject to His will. But He also took responsibility for it. "the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours".

These are hard pills to swallow for those who think God needs defending. He doesn't. He is God. He does all His good pleasure, and doesn't need approval of any man.

 

[npetreley]

I have posted this verse:

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And who created the world? Can the world defy God's will?

Let me put this another way. God cannot sin, and God cannot lie. Therefore sin and lies are not reflective of the Father. But God is not only the first cause of sin and lies, the quote from 1 Kings shows God uses lies to accomplish His purpose. All things happen according to God's will, but not all things reflect God's character.

 

[Blammo]

And who created the world? Can the world defy God's will?

Let me put this another way. God cannot sin, and God cannot lie. Therefore sin and lies are not reflective of the Father. But God is not only the first cause of sin and lies, the quote from 1 Kings shows God uses lies to accomplish His purpose. All things happen according to God's will, but not all things reflect God's character.

This verse:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Would you say "saw" in this verse actually means "saw to it"?

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

What?! According to you this was all part of His plan, purpose, and pleasure...???

 

[johnp.]

Blammo.

johnp has informed me "it says 'Father', not God". I guess that means, he believes, the Father is not God.

The scripture informs you not me. It does say Father. If the Son does a thing then the Son is mentioned.
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. John 6:46. Moses spoke to God face to face.
John is talking about the behaviour of Christians. He is saying if anyone says they are Christian yet loves the world then that is not from the Father, meaning that it is not the way a Christian behaves. They are changed and should show it. John isn't talking about God being the Author of sin but how Christians behave.

john.

 

[johnp.]

And - God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. Gen 1:4.

Would you say "saw" in this verse actually means "saw to it"?

john.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo.



The scripture informs you not me. It does say Father. If the Son does a thing then the Son is mentioned.
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. John 6:46. Moses spoke to God face to face.

I realize the verse says Father. That is not the point. The point is I believe the Father is God, I believe the Son is God, and I believe the Holy Spirit is God. I guess you are suggesting the Son "created" the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life? Or the Holy Spirit maybe?

Maybe the cause of lust and pride is "the god of this world"?

2 Corinthians 4:1-7 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The above passage actually affirms some of the things that have caused me to move closer to what I was beginning to understand was calvinistic theology. However, at the same time, it contains a significant amount of information that causes me to reject what you believe.

John is talking about the behaviour of Christians. He is saying if anyone says they are Christian yet loves the world then that is not from the Father, meaning that it is not the way a Christian behaves. They are changed and should show it. John isn't talking about God being the Author of sin but how Christians behave.

Don't you mean - If they are changed they will show it?

BTW, do you still sin? If so, why? What is the purpose and who is glorified by your continuing to sin?

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Why do we have to be told, if everything we do is totally beyond our control?

 

[Blammo]

And - God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. Gen 1:4.

Would you say "saw" in this verse actually means "saw to it"?

john.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Would you say "in our image" means "in our image"?
Would you say "after our likeness" means "after our likeness"?
Would you say "dominion" means "dominion"? (Does that hurt God's sovereignty? I don't think so.)
Would you say, according to this verse, God gave man dominion over all the earth? That's what I see.

Doesn't sound like God created robots or puppets to me.

 

[johnp.]

Would you say "in our image" means "in our image"?

I would.

Would you say "after our likeness" means "after our likeness"?

I would.

Would you say "dominion" means "dominion"? (Does that hurt God's sovereignty? I don't think so.)

I would. It would not. Nor do I. The King of Kings is our Father.

Would you say, according to this verse, God gave man dominion over all the earth? That's what I see.

I would. But He didn't give him dominion over Him did He? If God has no dominion on Earth then I think He has no business sending floods and famines and the like. How have we got dominion by the way? PS 50:10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

DT 10:14 To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.

PS 22:28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.

PS 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures through all generations.

Doesn't sound like God created robots or puppets to me.

I see nothing above of any relevance to the matter. I think this is the same problem as with 1 John. We know that God is Sovereign but we normally say this man did this or that man did that. We use these terms as the free willers do. It doesn't mean we abandon our belief that God is Sovereign but we talk normal like. The man jumped on the bus, not God working through the man caused him to jump on the bus that God caused to be there.

DT 28:15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

The curses God says He will bring to bear on Israel are awful. God tells the Israelites that they must follow the law to the letter. Any deviation will result in what we have witnessed. The Jew persecuted. Yet Paul says that no man will be justified by the law and the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

God told the Jews to do the impossible and punished them serverly for non-compliance. That's as far as our dominion goes. The impossible covenant. And we are guilty because He says we are.

Rom 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Gal 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

Can you see that man is controlled by one or the other but for us, we are just observers. We have a will that is controlled one way or another whether we like it or not and we don't. And God controls the fallen nature. JER 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. How much clearer can it be?

JER 11:1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 "Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant-- 4 the terms I commanded your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.' I said, `Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. 5 Then I will fulfill the oath I swore to your forefathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey'--the land you possess today."
I answered, "Amen, LORD."

"Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant--

They must obey the terms of the covenant. No excuses but must. Do you believe the law can be obeyed in every particular, at all? If no then why does God insist on it being kept with threats of curses? If yes what?

john.

 

[Blammo]

They must obey the terms of the covenant. No excuses but must. Do you believe the law can be obeyed in every particular, at all? If no then why does God insist on it being kept with threats of curses? If yes what?

No, I do not believe we can obey the law in every particular.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

 

[johnp.]

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Yes I know, it is a shame no one told the Jews. They only heard "Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant--"

Bit rough ain't it? MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

john.

 

[Blammo]

Quote: Blammo says...
Would you say, according to this verse, God gave man dominion over all the earth? That's what I see.

I would. But He didn't give him dominion over Him did He?

No, and neither did I say or suggest He did. God is sovereign.

If God has no dominion on Earth then I think He has no business sending floods and famines and the like. How have we got dominion by the way? PS 50:10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

God gave man dominion over all the earth. Your argument is with Him, not me.

God is the head of Christ, who is the head of every man. Ever heard of a "chain of command"?

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Look, john, the point is: God has given man the ability to think, feel, and make decisions independently. That does NOT mean God can not or will not override man's will. It just means man does have a will. We ain't robots or puppets, man.

Honestly, john, what I see in scripture is man exercising his own will. Sometimes God intercedes, other times He does not. Sometimes God influences, allows, or forces things to happen a certain way. All the while He has the power to make everything happen His way.

 

[Blammo]

Yes I know, it is a shame no one told the Jews. They only heard "Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant--"

See Hebrews.

 

[johnp.]

Look, john, the point is: God has given man the ability to think, feel, and make decisions independently.

No, you look. JER 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

Question: Jeremiah knows something you don't, what is it?

No, and neither did I say or suggest He did. God is sovereign.

Now He is Sovereign and you are independant. Let your yes be no and your no be yes? You put sour for sweet and dark for light. You question the scriptures too much to be a Calvinist.

I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

a man's life is not his own
a man's life is not his own
a man's life is not his own

it is not for man to direct his steps.
it is not for man to direct his steps.
it is not for man to direct his steps.

Jeremiah and me know that, and a few others. I'm over the moon about it.

God gave man dominion over all the earth. Your argument is with Him, not me.

I did not say He did not. If I have an argument with Him I take it to Him, what argument have I with you? We are sharing are we not? Iron sharpens iron and the Bride needs be ready. If you have a problem with what I have said then bring it to me, why tell me to argue it with God?
Where did I say God did not give dominion over the Earth? If you see that as freedom from God I have no problem, you have.

God is the head of Christ, who is the head of every man. Ever heard of a "chain of command"?

Yes, it the one you pull to get out of trouble, unless you are at the top that is.

That does NOT mean God can not or will not override man's will.

A little is not enough. Chucking a bone His way does not satisfy Sovereignty. The Despot will do as He pleases as He says He will. Why do you reject Jeremiah?
a man's life is not his own
it is not for man to direct his steps.

Sometimes God influences, allows, or forces things to happen a certain way. All the while He has the power to make everything happen His way.

Sovereignty resides in the choice.

See Hebrews.

I do.

john.

 

[Blammo]

johnp,

I am growing tired of trying to tell you the same thing over and over again, only to have you misundertand it, and give me a bunch of answers that have nothing to do with what I said. It is insulting. I DO NOT ask that you agree with me, just that you at least try to understand what I am saying. Please, do not change the meaning of what I said, add to what I have said, or otherwise twist what I have said. It does not make for good dialogue.

Let me try it this way: Man has been given the ability to think, reason, and make decisions independently. That does NOT mean God can't direct man's steps. I may decide I want to fly, but it ain't gonna happen without God. I may want to go get a cup of coffee. If God is willing, it will happen, if God does not want me to have a cup of coffee, He has the ability and the right to make sure it doesn't happen. Here is a verse that you showed me once before:

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

The LORD is sovereign. Even though, according to this verse, He allows a man's heart to deviseth his way, He can and will have the final say as to what actually happens.

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

oh and john, thank God for making you post everything you have posted so far. also thank him for making you thank him, since he needs to thank himself continuously. God has already prepared the next post you're going to make, aren't you so pampered?

 

[johnp.]

Hello Blammo.

I am growing tired of trying to tell you the same thing over and over again, only to have you misundertand it, and give me a bunch of answers that have nothing to do with what I said.

That's all well and good man but if you would rather bring your complaints in a way Christian brothers should, for your behaviour is not from the Father, then we would make more progress which I'd rather.

Man has been given the ability to think, reason, and make decisions independently.

PR 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.
PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

That does NOT mean God can't direct man's steps.

The scripture says He does direct a man's steps He doesn't say He can. but the LORD determines his steps. He does.

The LORD is sovereign. Even though, according to this verse, He allows a man's heart to deviseth his way, He can and will have the final say as to what actually happens.

So you are at the point of saying that God has His way regardless of the plans of man? He can and will have the final say as to what actually happens.

What does that mean in practise please? The man thinks of a thing and the Lord directs Him into doing the will of God all the time?

Edited. Missed this off: What's this 'deviseth'. PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Is that what you are saying?

john.

 

[webdog]

That's all well and good man but if you would rather bring your complaints in a way Christian brothers should, for your behaviour is not from the Father, then we would make more progress which I'd rather.

According to you, he's only bringing his complaints the way God is making him. Are you saying you don't like what God is bringing?

 

[Blammo]

johnp,

Does scripture say "a man's heart deviseth his way"? (Something you seem to have trouble believing. That has been my problem with you this whole time.)

What part of "God can and will have the final say as to what actually happens." do you not understand?

 

[johnp.]

Hello UnchartedSpirit, nice to meet you.

God has already prepared the next post you're going to make, aren't you so pampered?

I am. Eph 1: 7 ...in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

You understand.

...since he needs to thank himself continuously.

Who else can give Him the praise that belongs to Him? You O exalted one?

What subject for comics strips? What's with the racoon?

john.

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

I just liked the walk cycle--- and the subject was up to whoever was interested


but i really don't understand anything you say. i've never been exalted or even acknowledged until now, and I feel you're under the influence that you are God, since you behave exactly God does and think exactly the way God thinks. How else can God praise and bless himself if you were different from him? Maybe you just cause an echo when he shouts about how great he is....