From "Can a goat become a sheep" thread

[Dave G]

In the parable of the Sower, there are 4 (or perhaps 6) types of ground the seed fell on. Most of us would be agreed that in the 1st instance, when the devil's agents (the birds) ate the seed that was sown, that those recipients remain lost.

I see 4.
I also understand that except in the 4th, which brought forth fruit ( spiritual fruit ), the rest either stagnated or died in their growth, outwardly.

Therefore, all but 1 describes a lost person, at least to me.
The 4th is the saved person.

Always were and will remain goats.

Again, your thinking seems to be that goats and sheep can change places, at least in one direction.
I don't see that happening...

But there was a time that I once believed that, and I believed that it could happen in both directions.

In the 2nd instance, those people immediately received the word and rejoiced for a short time, but later fell away having no root deep within themselves. These are the types of people that I think a lot of Christians think of as sheep, but it turns out that they show themselves to be goats.

Agreed.

OR.... they started out as sheep and then decided afterwards, due to the heat and pressure of persecution on account of the Word, they fall away. Did they ever become sheep? Did they turn from sheep back to goat?

Do you mean, "did someone who was saved then become lost?"
I don't believe in loss of salvation, nor do I see that process described anywhere in the details of God's word.

 

[Dave G]

And that brings up the numerous disciples that were following Christ who likewise turned away when He told them they had to eat His body and drink His blood. Sheep become goats, or never sheep to begin with?

I see that they were never His sheep to begin with, and it is to those that He will say, "I never knew you".

And lastly, Jesus said that only those who endure to the end will be saved. So the Christians who do not endure are what then, sheep turning back to goats? Never sheep to begin with?

Same as above...
They fell away because they were never born again, were never indwelt by His Holy Spirit, and were never His elect.
They will not be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ( 1 Peter 1:5 ) because they were never His to begin with.

That is what I've come to see after many years of study in His word, my friend.
Again, I wish you well and God's blessings as you study His words deeply.

 

[NewMusic]

That is what I've come to see after many years of study in His word, my friend.
Again, I wish you well and God's blessings as you study His words deeply.

Thanks for the blessing, and wish I was surrounded by people who TRULY love Jesus.

I do not believe in once saved always saved. Not even remotely. I see countless examples of the sheep getting lost in scripture. Now you, having chosen to decide (and interpret) all the passages I'm referring to as that they were never born again to begin with. That is a manner to deal with the ultimate issue of things, but then all your understandings are not worth talking about since "one will never know until we get there."

What's the point of saying once saved always saved, if you acknowledge that the people you now consider born-again Christians ultimately fall away because of persecution, and you chalk that up to "Well, they must not have ever been born-again to begin with." ?

I think it utter heresy to teach once saved always saved, and the fruit of that teaching is utterly destructive.

Anyways, I am interested in your thought about this subject:

The Jews that God did not allow into the promised land, to me this is correlative to the church in which most are disobedient and some are obedient.

In any case, the Jews who were not allowed into the promised land, did they end up in hell just like the pagans? Or do they just not get into heaven but are still allowed to lived in some way, but not the ultimate blessing?

I tend to think the disobedient Jews are in hell. They were in fact part of the chosen people, by the nature of their having been born into Judaism, but their behavior got them "kicked out". Which is only just, in my thinking.

 

[Dave G]

The Jews that God did not allow into the promised land, to me this is correlative to the church in which most are disobedient and some are obedient.

I tend to agree, if one considers the body of Christ on earth to consist of both "wheat and tares",
While the ones written in Heaven are "wheat" alone.

In any case, the Jews who were not allowed into the promised land, did they end up in hell just like the pagans?

I believe that they did.

Or do they just not get into heaven but are still allowed to lived in some way, but not the ultimate blessing?

No.
Anyone who goes on to be with the Lord is in no way unequal to anyone else who is His.

I tend to think the disobedient Jews are in hell. They were in fact part of the chosen people, by the nature of their having been born into Judaism, but their behavior got them "kicked out". Which is only just, in my thinking.

On the surface I would agree with you, but digging deeper down I see that their behavior was a result of God never making them new creatures...
they were never "born again" and did not follow God by faith.

In other words, they did not follow their new nature because they had no new nature to follow...
They simply did what all men do when "the heat is off":

They go back to their old ways as if God is not looking, and never truly repent and seek His face consistently over the course of their life.

 

[Iconoclast]

The salvation of the elect is certain.
Not one will be lost. 2 pet3:9,jn10:27-30
Jesus seeks and saves each sheep the Father gave to Him.
jn6:37-44.
If you think salvation can be lost, you might not understand biblical salvation properly.

 

[NewMusic]

The salvation of the elect is certain.
Not one will be lost. 2 pet3:9,jn10:27-30
Jesus seeks and saves each sheep the Father gave to Him.
jn6:37-44.
If you think salvation can be lost, you might not understand biblical salvation properly.

The myriads of the ins and outs of theologies of Christ, I make no claim to be an expert. But I should, and do, know how to give a defense of the faith that is within me.

The interesting thing in all those verses you cite (and they should be taken in whole along with Romans 8:35-39 about who or what can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus, is that it does not address the saved one himself as to whether or not he/she can take themselves out of the Lord's hand. Why would anybody want to separate themselves from Christ after having come to know Him? Ludicrous thought. And God thinks it ludicrous, too.

Luke 9:62 Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

And yet that is exactly what we see in countless examples in the scriptures as well life today.

The love of the world, the desire for riches, the lust of the flesh, are constantly tempting people away from Christ. Be honest with me right now. I bet you and others right this minute talk in a tone of grief (Hey, I'm there with you!!!) about the brothers and sisters in your assembly that you are disappointed in, because they are constantly absent, never attend prayer gatherings (the absolute MOST important aspect of saints gathering), solemn assemblies, and perhaps worse, they would rather you have your "time allotments for Jesus" be at other times that do not conflict with the all important requirement of .... cooking dinner for somebody, watching the all important sports games, making some needed phone calls for business, preferring any of a number of things than Jesus.

Matt 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Oh, you say I'm too harsh with that last statement of mine. Well let us see and examine, might we?

Just exactly one hour ago I was in Denny's eating dinner alone with my bible open and reading this site at the same time. I wanted to address this post of yours while sitting at the restaurant, but for some strange reason was unable (site kept telling me my password entrance was wrong, which it wasn't).

A few people came in (turns out they were Baptists) with T-shirts on with this verse on the front and back of their shirts:

Matt 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Matt 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.

One of them was going by me to the restroom and I said to him, "Are you guys Christians?" and he said with a big smile, "Yes", noticed my bible open and exclaimed "Oh I see you're reading. Great!"

On his trip back to his table I stopped him again and asked regarding the verse (which was in too small a print to read quickly) and he said, "Once a week we gather to hand out food and clothing to people in need around this area."

I attempted to engage him in some fellowship, but it was clear he was anxious to get back to his group.

I thought about what they and countless others do and think regarding that verse Matthew 25:36-36, and when I was paying my bill, had run it past the Lord and personally was just going to go on my way. In fact, twice I did the 2-step dance, back and forth. I wanted to just leave.

I went to their table and said, "Not to give offense, and I took none from you either. But that verse on your shirt, is really not about giving food and clothing to people. It's about the Christian that gets ostracized by others. And for whatever reason, you do not call on the phone certain Christians and leave them alone. They feel like they are in prison. They want spiritual food from other saints, but the other saints don't include them. This is the true meaning of the Lord's remarks to the goats, for 'I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat', AND what you did to the least of these, MY BRETHREN, you did or did not do unto Me."

The one said, "Yes, I'm aware of that meaning." I left, but it should be said that the other 3 at that table would not even look up and acknowledge me.