From "Can a goat become a sheep" thread

[NewMusic]

I was reading the aforementioned thread tonight (perusing topics on the internet) and was motivated to register to post a few thoughts.

It appears that there was an argument made that goats cannot become sheep and gave a quotation of Jesus when He was speaking to the Pharisees as to why they could not understand His words. That verse was part of this:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me;
John 10:26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; [RSV]

Thus their inability to believe was because of not being a sheep. So then,

Question: Had Saul of Tarsus (i.e. apostle Paul) been in that group of Pharisees when Jesus said this (a perfectly reasonable hypothetical), the Lord's statement would still have been true, correct? Saul was filled with hatred, an unbeliever at that time, and not many days after the Lord's resurrection he had gotten letters and authority from his religious elders to imprison and even kill Christians.

The point, I think, is that goats can become sheep, if we are consistent with our evaluations of statements. What to me is extraordinary and interesting (to say the least) is that after Paul's conversion he goes on to write and say to others that God had predestined him (Galatians 1:15).

For the record, I believe they are both true at the same time (free will and predestination). His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways than our ways.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

 

[37818]

. . . goats cannot become sheep . . . .

Based on the interpertation that the designations "goats" and "sheep" only refers to one's final state from God's point of view. Matthew 25:31-46. Anyway that is how I personlsunderstand those two terms as a non-Calvinist, non-Arminian.

 

[Jerome]

Ephesians 2

We "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"


Puritan Favorites ❧ Thomas Adams (1583-1652) ❧ Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

Vol. I, Sermon XXII, p. 415:

"Pray....that those who are yet goats may become sheep, and be brought into one fold, under one shepherd. Whiles they continue weeds there is small hope. Yet Paul was once a tare, who after proved good wheat, and is now in the garner of heaven."

 

[Jerome]

Straight from R.C. Sproul's website:

Lord of the Dead and the Living

"we come into the world not as our Creator’s beloved possession but as men and women who belong, in a sense, to another—Satan. Apart from His grace, we are children of the devil no less than the Pharisees were (vv. 39-47). We are by nature children of wrath unless God intervenes to make us His children, to bring us back into His blessed possession (Eph. 2:1-3)."

 

[kyredneck]

Saul was filled with hatred, an unbeliever at that time, and not many days after the Lord's resurrection he had gotten letters and authority from his religious elders to imprison and even kill Christians.

My 'hyper-Monergist' opinion. Paul said:

15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1

"When it was the good pleasure of God to reveal His Son in me". You think Saul hated God? No! Christ foretold of Saul here:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

Saul sincerely believed he was serving the Lord by stamping out this cult. Thus Christ's address:

"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

Thus Saul's reply:

"Who art thou, Lord?"

Saul belonged to the Lord already, even from the womb. When it was God's good pleasure to reveal that to Saul, He did so.

 

[Iconoclast]

Before regeneration men behave as spiritually dead sinners do.
Reading Ezk.34 God himself describes how His sheep are lost and scattered.
He is going to seek and save His sheep.
All elect sheep even living as rebels to God are going to be found and effectually drawn to salvation.
Those persons in Jn.10:26....did not believe...Because they were not sheep.

 

[Jerome]

see William Perkins A Golden Chain, wherein it is explained that in regeneration a child of Satan is made a child of God:

William Perkins, A Golden Chain (London, 1600) p. 441

[According to the Monergism website, "William Perkins’ 'A Golden Chain' is a guide to Puritan theology—a superb rendering of Reformed doctrine as interpreted by the Puritans."]

 

[Iconoclast]

see William Perkins A Golden Chain, wherein it is explained that in regeneration a child of Satan is made a child of God:

William Perkins, A Golden Chain (London, 1600) p. 441

[According to the Monergism website, "William Perkins’ 'A Golden Chain' is a guide to Puritan theology—a superb rendering of Reformed doctrine as interpreted by the Puritans."]

William Perkins wrote many helpful things.
What he wrote does not change Ezk.34 or God's eternal decree.
Some people even leave their home church if the pastor teaches these truths.

 

[Jerome]

John Owen in Of Communion with God the Father :

"You know whose Children we are by nature; children of Satan, and of the curse, or of wrath. By the Spirit we are put into another capacity, and are Adopted to be the children of God, inasmuch as by receiving the spirit of our Father, we become the children of our Father. Thence is he called [Rom. 8] v. 15. the Spirit of Adoption."

 

[Jerome]

see Charles Spurgeon's sermon "the Sad Plight and Sure Relief". (His text is Romans 5:6)

"There is a new birth for you, so complete you shall be no more a child of Satan, but a child of God! And that is to be had now. Oh, the splendor of the Grace of God!"

 

[Jerome]

Two-Seed Predestinarian Baptists • Hyper-Calvinism

"Only a minuscule minority of Primitive Baptists adhere to the Two-Seed doctrine....[Daniel] Parker taught that all persons are either of the 'good seed' of God or of the 'bad seed' of Satan...and were predestined that way from the beginning....Parker spread his 'two seeds' far and wide, and a goodly number of the 'anti-missions' movement accepted his doctrine, though it never achieved anything near majority status....The Two-Seed churches were often connected with the Primitive Baptists and seem to have been so until late in the 19th century. By that time, most Primitive Baptists had excluded the 'Two-Seeders' for holding heretical doctrines....The Two-Seed theological stance is known in some circles as Hyper-Calvinism"

 

[SGO]

Goat tell it on the Mountain, praise to God.

 

[Jerome]

This stuff was addressed in the shut-down and bizarrely-titled thread: "Child of God or Son of Chucky?" several years ago (2014).

 

[Van]

I was reading the aforementioned thread tonight (perusing topics on the internet) and was motivated to register to post a few thoughts.

It appears that there was an argument made that goats cannot become sheep and gave a quotation of Jesus when He was speaking to the Pharisees as to why they could not understand His words. That verse was part of this:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me;
John 10:26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; [RSV]

Thus their inability to believe was because of not being a sheep. So then,

Question: Had Saul of Tarsus (i.e. apostle Paul) been in that group of Pharisees when Jesus said this (a perfectly reasonable hypothetical), the Lord's statement would still have been true, correct? Saul was filled with hatred, an unbeliever at that time, and not many days after the Lord's resurrection he had gotten letters and authority from his religious elders to imprison and even kill Christians.

The point, I think, is that goats can become sheep, if we are consistent with our evaluations of statements. What to me is extraordinary and interesting (to say the least) is that after Paul's conversion he goes on to write and say to others that God had predestined him (Galatians 1:15).

For the record, I believe they are both true at the same time (free will and predestination). His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways than our ways.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

A sad truth about bible study is if you make a mistake and adopt a bogus view or interpretation of a verse or passage, then when you run into conflicting verses, sometimes rather than correcting your initial view, you continue down the wrong path and mis-interpret another verse so it fits with your prior mistaken view. And so it goes...

Your cited translation of John 10:26 is not an accurate version. Here is the NASB:
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. To be "of My sheep" refers to people open to God's word, and thus would hear and consider God's word, thus the kind of recipients of God's word that might become His sheep. These are the people in view in the verse where Jesus says the fields are white for harvest. (John 4:35)

And to repeat the prior post #2, there are no goats within living humanity, only various kinds of sheep. Some from the Jewish flock, some from the Gentile flock, and some who are not "of His Sheep" that could still come to their senses and repent up until the moment they physically die.

 

[Dave G]

It appears that there was an argument made that goats cannot become sheep and gave a quotation of Jesus when He was speaking to the Pharisees as to why they could not understand His words.

Another passage in God's word that describes this inability ( unwillingness ) of some men to hear God's words is John 8:43-47.
John 3:19-20 tells us why men will not come to Him, while John 3:21 tells us why they do.

Also, see Philippians 1:29 for one reason why people believe on Christ.

Question: Had Saul of Tarsus (i.e. apostle Paul) been in that group of Pharisees when Jesus said this (a perfectly reasonable hypothetical), the Lord's statement would still have been true, correct?

As I see it, no.
Saul would have believed if the Lord had chosen to call him, by the Spirit and by His word, at that moment.

In addition, please keep in mind who was present in the passage you mentioned above ( John 10:25-27 )...
The Jews that did not believe because they were not of His sheep,
and His disciples, who did hear His words and believe them because they were of His sheep.

As in the above, see John 8:43-47 for why people do not hear ( receive or welcome ) God's words.

 

[Dave G]

The point, I think, is that goats can become sheep, if we are consistent with our evaluations of statements.

Based on John 6:37-65, John 17:2, Acts of the Apostles 2:39, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:13-24, and Ephesians 1:3-14, I see that there is no chance that a goat can change positions and become a sheep.

For example, in Romans 9:13-24, there are vessels of wrath, and vessels of mercy.
The vessels of mercy were prepared before by God, for His glory.
The vessels of wrath were fitted to destruction.

That is what the passage states.

Finally,
Based on 1 Corinthians 1:18-24, only the ones which are saved ( the sheep ) believe the preaching of the cross to be the power of God, while them that perish ( the goats ) believe it to be foolishness:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

To them that are called ( summoned ) both Jews and Greeks ( Gentiles ), Christ is the power and wisdom of God.
To those who are not "called", He is neither of those things and is rejected...becoming either a stumbling block, or foolishness.

According to Scripture, there are "wheat" and there are "tares";
There are the children of God and there are the children of the devil.
There are the wicked, and there are the righteous, and there are the goats and there are the sheep.

If you've believed on Christ from the heart and confessed Him with the mouth because the word of God was in your heart ( Romans 10:8-17 ), then you are one of the Lord's blessed sheep.

 

[NewMusic]

Another passage in God's word that describes this inability ( unwillingness ) of some men to hear God's words is John 8:43-47.
John 3:19-20 tells us why men will not come to Him, while John 3:21 tells us why they do.

Also, see Philippians 1:29 for one reason why people believe on Christ.

As I see it, no.
Saul would have believed if the Lord had chosen to call him, by the Spirit and by His word, at that moment.

In addition, please keep in mind who was present in the passage you mentioned above ( John 10:25-27 )...
The Jews that did not believe because they were not of His sheep,
and His disciples, who did hear His words and believe them because they were of His sheep.

As in the above, see John 8:43-47 for why people do not hear ( receive or welcome ) God's words.

My point, is that people do not know who the sheep and the goats are, until we get there.

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Matt 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Which is why we should be wise and acknowledge the truth that we should fear Him, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Therefore, Saul of Tarsus could have been in the crowd that was antagonistic toward Christ and you would have labeled him a goat. It was not until later that Jesus chose the timing of knocking him off his horse to save him.

Furthermore, Saul was consenting to Stephen's death (the 1st martyr) in which Stephen prayed to Jesus "not to hold their sin against them". Stephen did not retain Saul's sin, and partly to do with his salvation. God's way are inscrutable. And His ways include using men's freewill, and the saints, all while we do not see nor understand the "big picture".

So, my writing to to caution on the side of humility, rather than claiming to know.

IF you think you know something, you do not yet know as you ought to know.

 

[Dave G]

My point, is that people do not know who the sheep and the goats are, until we get there.

In a way, I agree that ultimately, we do not know the final state of anyone until it's all over.
However, my point is that goats do not jump species and become sheep, neither do they do so in reverse.

Rather, I see the Bible teaching that God creates people as goats, and others as sheep.
The sheep look like the goats until the Lord does His work in them.
Also, according to 1 Corinthians 1:18 we can know who God's people are, to an extent, when they respond to the preaching of His word...

Those who receive God's words with open arms, are generally going to be His, IMO.
Those that do not, evidence that they are not His.

That is what I see John 8:43-47 developing.

Which is why we should be wise and acknowledge the truth that we should fear Him, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

I agree, especially with Matthew 7:21-23 in view.

Therefore, Saul of Tarsus could have been in the crowd that was antagonistic toward Christ and you would have labeled him a goat. It was not until later that Jesus chose the timing of knocking him off his horse to save him.

Again I agree.

 

[Dave G]

Furthermore, Saul was consenting to Stephen's death (the 1st martyr) in which Stephen prayed to Jesus "not to hold their sin against them". Stephen did not retain Saul's sin, and partly to do with his salvation. God's way are inscrutable. And His ways include using men's freewill, and the saints, all while we do not see nor understand the "big picture".

So, my writing to to caution on the side of humility, rather than claiming to know.

IF you think you know something, you do not yet know as you ought to know.

Wise advice, and I find that I must step back and re-think some of my past ( and even present ) attitudes about who I believe are saved and who is not.
The Lord knows, and I must be content with trusting Him to do His own work when and where He wishes and according to His own plans and purposes.

May He bless you in many ways.

 

[NewMusic]

Wise advice, and I find that I must step back and re-think some of my past ( and even present ) attitudes about who I believe are saved and who is not.
The Lord knows, and I must be content with trusting Him to do His own work when and where He wishes and according to His own plans and purposes.

May He bless you in many ways.

One more thing, if you will.

In the parable of the Sower, there are 4 (or perhaps 6) types of ground the seed fell on. Most of us would be agreed that in the 1st instance, when the devil's agents (the birds) ate the seed that was sown, that those recipients remain lost. Always were and will remain goats.

In the 2nd instance, those people immediately received the word and rejoiced for a short time, but later fell away having no root deep within themselves. These are the types of people that I think a lot of Christians think of as sheep, but it turns out that they show themselves to be goats. OR.... they started out as sheep and then decided afterwards, due to the heat and pressure of persecution on account of the Word, they fall away. Did they ever become sheep? Did they turn from sheep back to goat?

And that brings up the numerous disciples that were following Christ who likewise turned away when He told them they had to eat His body and drink His blood. Sheep become goats, or never sheep to begin with?

Rhetorical question.

And lastly, Jesus said that only those who endure to the end will be saved. So the Christians who do not endure are what then, sheep turning back to goats? Never sheep to begin with?