From NA MDiv to RA/ATS DMin

[Rhetorician]

Eddie Reponse

Martin,

This is what I told the SBTS admissions rep:

Thanks for the quick response! When you say that my MDiv from Luther Rice would not be accredited, do you mean regionally accredited? Luther Rice is nationally accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS).​

I will submit an application next year. I am really hoping that I will be admitted. ​

Thanks a lot,​

Eddie​

Here is the SBTS response:​

By accredited, our policies mean accredited by the ATS (the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada), which is the main recognized body for graduate and doctoral-level accrediting for theological education. We look forward to receiving your application materials!​

So, it appears that SBTS only considers degrees from ATS schools to be accredited. Interesting...​

Eddie




​

Eddie,

I went from Harding Grad School of Religion to Southern. I had over 40 sem. hrs. in an MAR degree program. They took it all credit by credit, I did not loose one hour. Harding was NOT ATS accredited at the time but was under review. However, Harding University was SACS accredited. Therefore, they took all of my credits at Southern towards the MDiv degree. Check out this page at Southern's internet site.

http://www.sbts.edu/academics/Accreditation.aspx

This is exactly the type of thing B. Gray Allison, Founder of Mid America, wanted when he sought accreditation form SACS and NOT ATS.

I hope this helps in some small way?

This is FYI!

sdg!:thumbsup:

rd

 

[eddie]

Thanks for the info Rhet. I see that SBTS is RA and ATS accredited.


Could someone please explain the difference between RA and ATS accreditation.


Is ATS accreditation the gold standard for seminaries? If so, is this the reason why SBTS is RA and ATS?


Are ATS accredited seminaries, generally speaking, more respected than seminaries only holding RA status?


Is ATS accreditation a guarantee that a person's degree and/or credits will be accepted at any seminary in the nation?


Should we be telling prospective seminarians to seek out ATS accredited seminaries first, then RA, then NA?


It seems to me that deciding where to go to seminary is more complicated than I thought. Or, am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?


Thanks,

Eddie

 

[Broadus]

Eddie,

Do you know who the admissions counselor was? Typically, they are Master of Divinity students who have been given certain guidelines to answer inquiries. As you can imagine, a school the size of Southern gets a lot of inquiries daily. I suspect this person was telling you more than he knows.

The reason I say that is that I did PhD studies as Southern with students who had been graduated from places like Mid-America and Masters, neither of which are ATS-accredited. They are, though, regionally accredited.

I also remember an MDiv student who had been a Luther Rice bachelor's degree graduate.

A reason that some schools are still cautious about Luther Rice grads is because of the poor academic reputation of Luther Rice in its early years. The Luther Rice of today, by all accounts, is much better academically than the Luther Rice of the 1960's and 1970's. The requirements are much higher and work that is accepted has to be of better quality than what was allowed in the early years. Those earlier folks had good intentions, and the SBC seminaries were in such a mess that the conservative alternative that LRS offered was most welcomed. Still, perhaps in an attempt to get recognition by leaders in the SBC, I've been told by former profs that big name pastors were allowed to get doctorates for work that was basically little more than transcribed sermons. In fact, I've seen ThD dissertations (from the early days--the ThD has not been offered there for over 20 years) and DMin major writing projects that were little more that a compilation of transcribed sermons. I even felt that my own LRS MDiv (1985) was insufficient, so I did another complete MDiv, attending extension classes of SEBTS and NOBTS in Georgia before completing it at SBTS (1998). So, it's not really snobbery. It has more to do with Luther Rice's past.

As things continue, though, I think that LRU will gain more traction and even wider acceptance. Do you have any idea where LRU's latest attempt to secure regional accreditation (SACS) lies?

Bill

 

[Broadus]

Thanks for the info Rhet. I see that SBTS is RA and ATS accredited.


Could someone please explain the difference between RA and ATS accreditation.

If memory serves me correctly (and it often fails!), there are six regional accreditation agencies in the U.S. "Regional" signifies they are over a particular region, though there seems to be some overlap. Regional accreditation agencies accredit both secular and religious grade schools, colleges/universities, and seminaries.

ATS accredits graduate theological institutions in the U.S. and Canada. Some evangelical institutions, such as The Master's Seminary (John MacArthur), have not sought ATS accreditation. I suspect the reason is that ATS can be more intrusive into the machinations of a school than regional agencies tend to be. That's just conjecture on my part.

Is ATS accreditation the gold standard for seminaries? If so, is this the reason why SBTS is RA and ATS?

For many, I suspect that ATS accreditation is the gold standard. IMO, regional accreditation is all that is necessary. SBTS has held ATS accreditation for decades, before the conservative shift of the 1990's.

Are ATS accredited seminaries, generally speaking, more respected than seminaries only holding RA status?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Conservatives, in my estimation, are quite satisfied with regional accreditation. Liberals, again in my estimation, put more stock in ATS accreditation. Again, I'm painting with a broad brush. Some may rightly take issue which my general characterization in some specific situations. ATS accreditation is more focused upon theological education, while RA is more general.

Is ATS accreditation a guarantee that a person's degree and/or credits will be accepted at any seminary in the nation?

If a school has ATS and RA, generally speaking, all the bases are covered. Still, no school is required to accept an applicant solely on the basis of the accreditation of the institution from which he was graduated. It is one factor among many. If a person graduates from an RA institution, he will rarely encounter any problem.

Should we be telling prospective seminarians to seek out ATS accredited seminaries first, then RA, then NA?

I don't think so. I think the real issue concerns RA and NA. With RA, there is rarely a problem. With NA, there is more likely to be an issue, but not always. I advise students to keep the accreditation of the school in mind if they think there is a possibility they may want to pursue additional work elsewhere.

It seems to me that deciding where to go to seminary is more complicated than I thought. Or, am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

Thanks,

Eddie

It's not that complicated. You are attending a good school and getting a good education. If it doesn't work out for you to do your DMin at SBTS, then look elsewhere. God is sovereign and closes and opens doors as he chooses. You'll have some good options, even if you do your DMin at LRU. Still, if you keep a high GPA at LRU and take challenging classes, I suspect there's a good possibility you'll be accepted at either SBTS or SEBTS.

Keep us posted.

Bill

 

[Martin]

Martin,

This is what I told the SBTS admissions rep:

Thanks for the quick response! When you say that my MDiv from Luther Rice would not be accredited, do you mean regionally accredited? Luther Rice is nationally accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS).​

I will submit an application next year. I am really hoping that I will be admitted. ​

Thanks a lot,​

Eddie​

Here is the SBTS response:​

By accredited, our policies mean accredited by the ATS (the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada), which is the main recognized body for graduate and doctoral-level accrediting for theological education. We look forward to receiving your application materials!​

So, it appears that SBTS only considers degrees from ATS schools to be accredited. Interesting...​

​

==That is what they are doing. But their position falls apart when one realizes that many ATS accredited schools honor degrees/credits from schools that are regionally accredited only and nationally (TRACS) accredited only. The bottom-line, for me, is that Southern Seminary just does not wish to honor degrees/credits from Luther Rice. That is fine, it is their choice, however it is unfair since Luther Rice is accredited.

 

[Rhetorician]

Eddie Response

Eddie,

Hang tough!

I know it seems to be complicated. But you are asking the right questions at the right time for sure. Everything Broadus and I have told you up above is correct to the letter.

You might even want to talk to more than one counselor at the ATS/RA seminaries. I have known of cases where an ATS/RA school accepted the degree or credits from a NA school and let the person in on "academic probation" for maybe one semester or a year.

After they "prove themselves," then the restriction can be lifted and then the person can go about with the rest of their academic life. It sounds like snobbery, and in some instances it may very well be? But, I think it is a case of getting what you pay for. But on the other hand as Broadus has said, LRU has made tremendous strides in the last 10 or so years.

sdg!:thumbsup:

rd

 

[eddie]

Bill,

The SBTS rep who gave me the information is the Associate Director of Professional Doctoral Studies. So, I think it's safe to say that what he told me accurately reflects SBTS's position on LRU's accreditation

I have not asked LRU about their RA application status. I will ask the question and let you know what I find out.


Thanks you guys for the encouragement. I will hang tough! I believe that I am getting a good education at LRU. The amount of work in my LRU MDiv classes so far has been equal to what I experienced at Liberty, Southern Christian, and Beacon U.

I'm trying my best to keep my GPA as high as possible in preparation for applying to SBTS. I took 9 hours over the summer and got one "A" and two "B's". I'm also taking 9 hours this fall. Taking 9 hours ain't easy when you work full-time, have a family, and minister at the church. I have 7 classes left to finish next year.


Eddie

 

[PatsFan]

I have not asked LRU about their RA application status. I will ask the question and let you know what I find out.

This is the situation with LRU's RA application as of December, 2005 according to SACS: http://www.sacscoc.org/pdf/05cractdec.pdf

Sanctions and other Negative Actions

The Commission denied authorization of a Candidacy Committee to the following institutions:​

Luther Rice Seminary, Inc., Lithonia, Georgia
For failure to comply with Core Requirement 2.5 (Institutional Effectiveness), Core Requirement 2.7.1 (Program Length), Core Requirement 2.8 (Faculty), Comprehensive Standard 3.7.1
(Faculty), and Core Requirement 2.9 (Learning Resources and Services) of the​

​

Principles of Accreditation.​

 

[eddie]

PatsFan,

Thanks for the info, but I already knew that. I'm going to ask about their plans to reapply. I hope they try again.

Eddie

 

[PatsFan]

P.S. I do think that my "Doug Moo, Scooby-Doo, Mr. Magoo" comment was pretty funny.

I thought so too. :laugh: BTW There are a lot of RA Evangelical seminaries out there. Every one of them defines ATS policies a little differently. If it doesn't have to be Baptist I think you're going to find one that will work with you. Don't get discouraged. I almost went to LRU for a D.Min. I think it's a really good seminary. I'm sure you're getting some solid preparation there. God bless.

Tom

 

[eddie]

Tom,

Thanks a lot for the encouragement!

Eddie

 

[Siberian]

Baptist Bible Seminary, Clark Summit PA

An admissions counselor (FT staff) from Baptist Bible Seminary in Clark Summit, PA, that BBS would honor LRU MDivs. They are RA though not ATS.

Also, ATS requires that three years ministry be subsequent to earning MDiv. Many RA non ATS seminaries require 3 years ministry, but not necessarily after earning the MDiv. So an LRU grad could apply right away for admissions to BBS.

FWIW

 

[eddie]

Siberian,

Interesting info...thanks a lot!

Eddie