Fruits of Calvanism

[webdog]

But you are missing an important point. The point is that God Himself says He has a special love for some that He does not have for others. Even if you deny unmerited election, you have to admit that the love that God has for believers as His children is greater than the love that God has for unbelievers who die spitting in His face.

I'm not missing this point, as I agree. We are told to love even our enemies. Now, will I love the person at work who is my "enemy" more than my son? Of course not. I am commanded to love him, though. As a brother in Christ, I love you, and look forward to crossing paths with you in Heaven. Do I love my enemy more than I love you? Do I love you more than my wife and son? God's love is perfect, and I believe His love for sinners is even greater than our love of our enemies. That's why He sent His Son to die.

 

[Calvibaptist]

My point was that the question "Can I love more than God can" is the wrong question. The real question is "Does God love everyone equally?" You will find that the answer is "No."

If my father (who was a believer and is now in glory) was an unbeliever, it is conceivable that I could have loved him in a way that is completely different from God's universal love for mankind. I would have had a special relationship with my father that God did not. This is the reality that even non-Calvinists have to admit.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
My point was that the question "Can I love more than God can" is the wrong question. The real question is "Does God love everyone equally?" You will find that the answer is "No."

If my father (who was a believer and is now in glory) was an unbeliever, it is conceivable that I could have loved him in a way that is completely different from God's universal love for mankind. I would have had a special relationship with my father that God did not. This is the reality that even non-Calvinists have to admit.

My question was not the wrong question, as you answered it with the analogy of your father.

Even if you perceive you could love an unsaved relative more than God, that is only a perception. We cannot know the magnitude of God's love.
My six month old son can grow up someday and die an unbeliever. Does this mean that God doesn't love him? No, and my love for him would not outweigh God's love for him. The unsaved are "enemies of God", and yet Christ lamented over Jerusalem.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

(We are never told that God stopped loving them, but on the contrary, He GRIEVED)

Hosea 11
7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

Prov 24:17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18Or the LORD will see it and be displeased

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
But you did not say respect of persons in redemption. You said "respect of persons in judgment." At least you go the original context of the phrase right. But God does have respect of persons in redemption. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Apparently God forgot to check with you first to see if He could do something.

Ah, you have nailed one of the foundational problems with free willism. It approaches the scriptures with the assumption "God would only do things the way I think He should do them" and then reads the scripture through those glasses. In this case it's the glasses of "all men are created equal".

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
But you did not say respect of persons in redemption. You said "respect of persons in judgment." At least you go the original context of the phrase right. But God does have respect of persons in redemption. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Apparently God forgot to check with you first to see if He could do something.

Ah, you have nailed one of the foundational problems with free willism. It approaches the scriptures with the assumption "God would only do things the way I think He should do them" and then reads the scripture through those glasses. In this case it's the glasses of "all men are created equal". </font>[/QUOTE]"Free willism" approaches the Scriptures with no such assumptions. On the contrary, reformers believe that God commands man to do things they cannot do, and read everything through those glasses.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1Cor 2
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
My point was that the question "Can I love more than God can" is the wrong question. The real question is "Does God love everyone equally?" You will find that the answer is "No."

If my father (who was a believer and is now in glory) was an unbeliever, it is conceivable that I could have loved him in a way that is completely different from God's universal love for mankind. I would have had a special relationship with my father that God did not. This is the reality that even non-Calvinists have to admit.

WOW, ya'll have a serious reading comprehension problem.

God love the world, and commended that love towards "US" while we were yet sinner And I don't see one saved person in that group, do you???

All have sinned, and how many sins did Jesus die for, WHOLE WORLD and how many were sinners at the time he died, "WHOLE WORLD".


As I've said before, Calvinist look at things "BACKWARDS", Jesus didn't die for the "SAVED", he died for the "LOST SINNERS".

Lu 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT BE saved.

The world MIGHT be saved??????


Would ya'll care to explain how sovereign will/predestination MIGHT BE or MIGHT NOT BE fulfilled??

 

[epistemaniac]

Webdog, you said “I'm not playing word games, nor am I trying to "trap" you. You did not answer the question the first time I posed it to you.”

LOL… ok… your question was “If you take Ps. 5:5 as God hates (opposite or absence of love) all workers of iniquity, can you tell me who besides Christ this would not apply to?”
I immediately answered this by saying that I took it to be obvious that this cannot apply to everyone, I said “As for the “some” that God hates, the Scripture seems to be saying that God hates those who are in perpetual disobedience to Him. I am sorry that I took it as obvious that since we are all sinners and thus workers of iniquity, and that if we looked at the situation based on this point alone, none would be saved….. so to spell it out a little more fully, since it is the case some are saved, it follows therefore that God’s hatred does not extend to all, but the point of all this is to say that it does extend to some.”
Note the highlighted words above. God hates those who sends to Hell, ie those who are in constant, perpetual disobedience to Him, these would be the unsaved. Do you understand what I am saying now? I am not asking if you agree, just if you understand.

Webdog “What "units of measurement"? Are you serious? The question is simple: can I love another human being more than God?”
Definitions are important webdog. When you ask me if I can love “more” then God, it is reasonable to ask what it is that you mean by “more”, it can mean different things. The proof of this is that you have already had to deal with CalviBaptist pointing out to you that we can love sin more than God, and it is clear that God loves Jacob more than Esau. So in what ways did God love one “more” than the other? When you answer that question you begin to explore the definition of the word “more”. I love my wife more than my mother in some ways, I also loved my mother more than my wife in other ways, plainly, since I love them both, the word “love” and the word “more” need to be qualified and defined.

you said "“I agree. You claim that God hates all workers of iniquity, which includes everyone. If I love just one person, I have loved that person more than God.”
False, I have qualified my statement several times now, it does not include everyone.

“This is not biblical. Christ says that if we hate, we have committed murder in our hearts. Are you calling God a murderer? People don't go to Hell because God hates them, they go to Hell for not believing that God sent His only Son to atone for them because God LOVES THEM that much!”

Psalm 5:5, it’s biblical.

(ASV) The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

(ESV) The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

(MKJV) The foolish shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all doers of iniquity.

(NKJV) The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.

(NLT)
Therefore, the proud will not be allowed to stand in your presence,
for you hate all who do evil.

(Geneva) The foolish shal not stand in thy sight: for thou hatest all them that worke iniquitie.

(RSVA) The boastful may not stand before thy eyes; thou hatest all evildoers.

(HCSB) The boastful cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all evildoers.

(KJV-1611) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest al workers of iniquity

(NASB1988) The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity.

(GB) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: for thou hatest all them that worke iniquitie.

(LITV) The boasters shall not set themselves before Your eyes. You hate all workers of iniquity.

(NNAS) The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

(NET) Arrogant people cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who behave wickedly.


(NIV) The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.


Let me ask you a question, does God love those in Hell? If so, He sure has a funny way of showing His love.

You said “A "perfect hate"? Talk about word games!
You really believe God would command us to do something righteous that He Himself would not do?”
I have no problem with the verses you quoted, for none of them contradict Psalm 5:5. You seem to have a problem comprehending the fact that God can love as well as hate, the one is not mutually exclusive of the other, especially since we have biblical testimony, obvious clear biblical testimony, that God does in fact hate. In order to convince me otherwise, you are going to have to show me that Scripture does not say what it says.

Since God is a perfect being, perfect in all He does, and since Ps. 5:5 clearly teaches that God hates workers of iniquity, then He must hate with a perfect hatred. Pretty simple really.

Gill comments on the verse:
"not all that have sin in them or do sin, for there are none without it; but such who give themselves up to work wickedness, who make it the business of their lives, and are slaves unto it, living in a continued series and course of impiety; and this character does not only belong to openly profane sinners, but to some professors of religion; see Mat_7:22; and these are the objects of God's hatred. Which does not so much intend any past act of his, the preterition or passing them by, when he chose others in his eternal purposes; in which sense the word is used in Rom_9:13, as his continued aversion to them, denying them his grace and favour, and rejecting them from all nearness to him and communion with him; and may include the everlasting punishment of them, by which his displicine and hatred will be made manifest: and he is impartial in it, without any respect to persons, high or low, rich or poor; indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, will come upon every soul of man that does evil. God's love to his own people was antecedent to sin, and was placed upon them in Christ, in whom their persons are always well pleasing to him; and though they sinned in Adam, and became actual transgressors of his law, yet such was his love to their persons, that he saves them from their sins by the blood and righteousness of his son."

Clarke says "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity - Some sin now and then, others generally; some constantly, and some labor in it with all their might. These are the Workers of iniquity. Such even the God of infinite love and mercy hates. Alas! what a portion have the workers of iniquity! the hatred of God Almighty!"


blessings,
Ken

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
WOW, ya'll have a serious reading comprehension problem.

God love the world, and commended that love towards "US" while we were yet sinner And I don't see one saved person in that group, do you???

Who is the "us" in that verse? When Paul was writing that it was to believers, was it not?

All have sinned, and how many sins did Jesus die for, WHOLE WORLD and how many were sinners at the time he died, "WHOLE WORLD".

How does universal atonement work again? He died for everyone's sins, but some still go to hell? So, Jesus' death was a failure?

As I've said before, Calvinist look at things "BACKWARDS", Jesus didn't die for the "SAVED", he died for the "LOST SINNERS".

No, we just go further back than you do. The Scriptures say that Jesus died for lost sinners, yes. But those who come to faith were chosen before the foundation of the world. So, while they were sinners when Jesus died for them, they were elect before He ever came to earth.

Lu 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So, you admit that there are some that Jesus did not come to call? Interesting...

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So, you admit that there are some that Jesus did not come to seek and to save? Interesting...

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT BE saved.

The world MIGHT be saved??????


Would ya'll care to explain how sovereign will/predestination MIGHT BE or MIGHT NOT BE fulfilled??

"Might be" does not in any way indicate a possibility of something not happening. We anxiously await our "hope" to be revealed. Does that mean that the thing we hope for might not happen? Of course not, because God said it would. Jesus said "all that the Father gives to me will come." So, the 'might' is realized.

 

[npetreley]

Simple note on "hating"...

Jude 1:22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

The Greek is miseo. Free willers love to retranslate "miseo" to mean "love less" because it gets rid of a verse they hate...er...love less. But is anyone actually going to argue that the meaning of the word here in Jude is "love less"?

 

[epistemaniac]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So, you admit that there are some that Jesus did not come to seek and to save? Interesting...</font>[/QUOTE]If God wants to save all men without exception, why is Jesus seeking at all? What's to seek? Everyone's here on earth, aren't they? Did the free willism Jesus have a vision problem or something? "Oh, there's a human over there! I thought that was a moose at first. Good thing I found you because I didn't come to seek and save mooses (meece?)."

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT BE saved.

The world MIGHT be saved??????


Would ya'll care to explain how sovereign will/predestination MIGHT BE or MIGHT NOT BE fulfilled??

Would y'all care to explain the point was of Jesus coming into the world if the world MIGHT NOT be saved? That is the natural consequence of your interpretation. I can just imagine the reaction from God. "Oh well, I tried. Too bad. Better luck, next world. Sorry, Jesus, we did all that for nothing this time around. But at least they MIGHT have been saved, so it was worth the try."

C'mon Me4, you have to work really hard to understand this verse any other way than "to make salvation possible", because without Jesus coming into the world, the world COULD NOT be saved. The question becomes, to make it possible for whom? The elect, of course. More specifically, the elect among all peoples without distinction (the world).

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
[QB]Originally posted by Me4Him:
WOW, ya'll have a serious reading comprehension problem.

God love the world, and commended that love towards "US" while we were yet sinner And I don't see one saved person in that group, do you???

Who is the "us" in that verse? When Paul was writing that it was to believers, was it not?




If the US in that verse is not US, the sinners, then Jesus didn't die for "US".

Want to explain how all are sinner and Jesus's death for sins of the whole world "MIGHT NOT" covere some sins???

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And if the free gift is to "ALL MEN",..."WHY".. they "Might be or might not be saved"???

Ya see that "might be" puts another "condition" onto the plan of salvation, "personal faith", In Jesus, then you "Can be" saved.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
That is the natural consequence of your interpretation. I can just imagine the reaction from God. "Oh well, I tried. Too bad. Better luck, next world. Sorry, Jesus, we did all that for nothing this time around. But at least they MIGHT have been saved, so it was worth the try."

That's exactly what God will say to the unsaved, Jesus died to pay the wages of your sins, but you refused to accept his payment, now you can pay the debt yourself.

C'mon Me4, you have to work really hard to understand this verse any other way than "to make salvation possible", because without Jesus coming into the world, the world COULD NOT be saved. The question becomes, to make it possible for whom? The elect, of course. More specifically, the elect among all peoples without distinction (the world).

And you have to say God swears as oath and it's a lies, not willing any to perish, wanting the wicked to turn from evil.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, (Oath) saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;

for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Jesus paid your sins but you won't believe in him)

The only reason people "might not be" saved.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
And you have to say God swears as oath and it's a lies, not willing any to perish, wanting the wicked to turn from evil.

And you have to say that you can't read, because I've answered this so many times I should probably just automate the response (that's probably what you're doing, since you can't seem to "get it" and keep harping on this ridiculous lie thing).

For the gazillionth time, the context of the verse is that God is not willing for any of His elect to perish. And they won't. Not a single one. So there's no lie.

If you're going to keep insisting that it means "any" as in "all people without exception" then you'll eventually have to come to terms with the fact that your God is incompetent. He is not willing that any perish, but he can't seem to get His will done, because some do perish.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, (Oath) saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked

Once again, there is a difference between willing something and taking pleasure in it.

 

[webdog]

For the gazillionth time, the context of the verse is that God is not willing for any of His elect to perish. And they won't. Not a single one. So there's no lie.

Makes absolutely no sense. How can God's "elect" perish, or why does God need to be patient with His "elect" so they won't perish? If you are elect, you won't perish, period.

2Peter 3:15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as an opportunity for salvation, just as our dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you.

Doesn't sound like 3:9 refers exclusively to the "elect"!

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Simple note on "hating"...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jude 1:22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

The Greek is miseo. Free willers love to retranslate "miseo" to mean "love less" because it gets rid of a verse they hate...er...love less. But is anyone actually going to argue that the meaning of the word here in Jude is "love less"? </font>[/QUOTE]Your strawman argument of miseo meaning ONLY to love less is weak. Like numerous words in greek, miseo holds more than one meaning. Context here means to detest, so this "free willer" doesn't translate "love less" in this text.

 

[webdog]

Psalm 5:5, it’s biblical.

I never claimed it wasn't. You stated "nor can you hate someone more than God can". This is not biblical, as I can hate someone (murder in your heart: sin) more than God, who doesn't "hate" (withold love, murder).

1 John2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1Cor 2
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

If God tells us to love even our enemies, leaving NOBODY we are to hate, God would not hold mere humans to standards higher than Him. We are to walk in the same manner as Christ walked (love even our enemies, hating means murdering), and we have the "mind of Christ". Don't tell me God hates humans!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />For the gazillionth time, the context of the verse is that God is not willing for any of His elect to perish. And they won't. Not a single one. So there's no lie.

Makes absolutely no sense. How can God's "elect" perish, or why does God need to be patient with His "elect" so they won't perish? If you are elect, you won't perish, period.

2Peter 3:15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as an opportunity for salvation, just as our dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you.

Doesn't sound like 3:9 refers exclusively to the "elect"! </font>[/QUOTE]Not all of the elect are believers already, and those who die in unbelief perish. So, the day of the Lord will not come until all of the elect do believe.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />For the gazillionth time, the context of the verse is that God is not willing for any of His elect to perish. And they won't. Not a single one. So there's no lie.

Makes absolutely no sense. How can God's "elect" perish, or why does God need to be patient with His "elect" so they won't perish? If you are elect, you won't perish, period.

2Peter 3:15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as an opportunity for salvation, just as our dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you.

Doesn't sound like 3:9 refers exclusively to the "elect"! </font>[/QUOTE]Not all of the elect are believers already, and those who die in unbelief perish. So, the day of the Lord will not come until all of the elect do believe. </font>[/QUOTE]God doesn't make circular statements. If one of God's "elect" dies in unbelief, they would not be "elect". All of the "elect" become "elect" BY believing, not the other way around! The statement that God is not willing that any of His elect perish, but that all of His elect come to repentance is ridiculous, and not what the Bible says.