Fruits of Calvanism

J.D. · Apr 17, 2006

Webdog

Can I love someone more than God does?

O.K. I'll take a bite at that. My theologically untrained reaction is yes, in a sense you can love someone more than God does.

God's love is predicated on knowing, or rather, fore-knowing, and he does not love those whom he does not know. "Depart from me...I never knew you"

So you may know your mother, and love her, as I do mine, but the question is: Does God know her? If God does not know her, then He does not love her?

Does he hate her? I don't know - I think "hate" can be understood both ways - so either way the question is, does He love her with that special love that He has for those whom He foreknew?

When TV preachers look into the camera and say that they love me, I always react within myself "no you don't! You don't even know me. What if I were a serial pedophile? You wouldn't say that."

I don't think you can disconnect "loving" from "knowing", either for man or God.

Me4Him · Apr 17, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
If God, through foreknowledge, note foreknowledge, not predestination, wrote all the names of the saved before the foundation of the world, then he also knew the names of the unsaved, don't ya think???

If you could show me one, just one, Scripture that supports this view clearly, then I will believe it. Because I know of quite a few that talk about God choosing before the foundation of the world based solely on His own will, not the will of man. [/QUOTE]Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we (ALL) were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day,

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, (an oath by God against predestination) saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (predestination totally eliminated)

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

You have to do a lot of scripture twisting to get even the predestination of one soul to hell from these verse.

I don't think God is going to "GRIEVE" over any "sins" he predestined.

Me4Him · Apr 17, 2006

Originally posted by npetreley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by webdog:
God loves the world is "ublbilical"? Ever read John 3:16?

Yes, I think I have. God so loved the world. In this case, world would have to mean all peoples without distinction, Jews and Gentiles. If it meant all people without exception, John 3:16 would contradict the plain meaning of other scripture.

The context supports this interpretation, as well, but I've already explained that. [/QUOTE]Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while "WE" were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

According to your daffynition, some didn't merit God's love because some didn't qualify as being sinners of that whole world Jesus died for.

"Alien sinners"??? must be, your interpretations are "out of this world".

Bill Brown · Apr 17, 2006

When we read scripture such as, Genesis 6:6 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. , we are reading a theanthropism. A theanthropism is actually an anthropomorphism that is specific to God. It is attributing human characteristics to God. In many instances of scripture it is the only way we are able to understand the actions of God. Did it really grieve God in His heart that He created man? Think about it. Did God make a mistake? Of course not. How do we know this? Because in early in Genesis God said, Genesis 1:31 31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

Theanthropisms allow us to understand the actions of God. They are indispensible in hermenutics and understanding the text.

Me4Him · Apr 17, 2006

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Me4Him, you said "God loves whole world"

this is simply unbiblical and therefore false....

Psa 5:5 nas The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity."

Psa 11:5 nas The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

God loved Jacob and hates Esau.... Mal 1:3, Rom 9:13

blessings,
Ken

God loved Jacob and hates Esau.... Mal 1:3, Rom 9:13

Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I think your interpretation of hate is a little "misguided".

And why would God tell us to do something that he would not do, aren't we to be the "image of God"???

Mt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Bill Brown · Apr 18, 2006

Romans 9:13 13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Did God really hate Esau? No. This verse is a theanthropism as I explained in my previous post. It is a way in which God is explaining, in human terms, the impact of his sovereign choice. Consider the impact on the hearer of the words love and hate. Are they not polar opposites? God used another theanthropism in the Psalms. Psalm 103:12 12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. We see another theanthropism in Isaiah. Isaiah 55:8-9 8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. Of course the throughts of finite man cannot match the thoughts of an infinite God. How far much higher is heaven than the earth? We don't know. It is a theanthropism. It is used to accenuate a point. That is why scripture cannot be taken literal without understanding the context...including metaphor, theanthropisms and anthropomorphisms.

Jarthur001 · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by Bill Brown:
Romans 9:13 13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Did God really hate Esau? No. This verse is a theanthropism as I explained in my previous post. It is a way in which God is explaining, in human terms, the impact of his sovereign choice. Consider the impact on the hearer of the words love and hate. Are they not polar opposites? God used another theanthropism in the Psalms. Psalm 103:12 12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. We see another theanthropism in Isaiah. Isaiah 55:8-9 8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. Of course the throughts of finite man cannot match the thoughts of an infinite God. How far much higher is heaven than the earth? We don't know. It is a theanthropism. It is used to accenuate a point. That is why scripture cannot be taken literal without understanding the context...including metaphor, theanthropisms and anthropomorphisms.

Hi Bill..glad to meet you,

I do not come up here much in the Baptist forum, but things were kinda light in the "other" forum. 1st, I am Baptist.

It is wrong to say this passage is a theanthropism. Other than that..i agree with you. The reason why is that this would change the context of the passage. While it maybe hard to read this my many, the passage is clear. Lets look at it again. Notice it is a list of black and white.

1) God takes the 1st second son....over the first son.

(NOTES ON ONE: this would be no rebate if God choose the 1st Son..for to us that seems the right way to do it...But this is Gods way)

2) God will have mercy...verses... no mercy....black and white

3) God will have compassion...verses...no compassion... black and white

God loves....verses...?? (black and white)

what is at the other end? If you do not like the word hate...use a word that means the same thing.

It is not right to say this is.."not love as much"...that is not black and white.

Its not "kinda likes".

It must be on the other side of love. This is seen in the context from the full list. Change the word if you must, but do not change the context. Maybe its hard to believe..but do not change the context. Maybe you HATE the word hate..as something God could do...but do not change the context. if you do not understand...

DO NOT CHANGE THE CONTEXT.

If this were a theanthropism, then the word "love" must be changed as well...to fit the context.

Context is KING

In Christ...James

npetreley · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by Me4Him:
1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Right. The sins of people everywhere, not just Jews. Not just the Roman world.

That's "people without distinction".

You want it to mean "people without exception".

Me4Him · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by npetreley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Right. The sins of people everywhere, not just Jews. Not just the Roman world.

That's "people without distinction".

You want it to mean "people without exception". [/QUOTE]Exactly, and so does God, it's a sin to show respect of persons in judgment.

Bill Brown · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by Me4Him:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Right. The sins of people everywhere, not just Jews. Not just the Roman world.

That's "people without distinction".

You want it to mean "people without exception". [/QUOTE]Exactly, and so does God, it's a sin to show respect of persons in judgment. [/QUOTE]Respect for people in judgment? There is no respect for people in judgment. Those who die in their sins are condemned...enemies of God. There is no respect.

Matthew 7:23 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

Matthew 25:41 1 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

I do not see respect for the condemned in these passages.

Bill Brown · Apr 18, 2006

It is wrong to say this passage is a theanthropism.

I will research this and let you know. Thanks for pointing it out.

Me4Him · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by Bill Brown:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Right. The sins of people everywhere, not just Jews. Not just the Roman world.

That's "people without distinction".

You want it to mean "people without exception". [/QUOTE]Exactly, and so does God, it's a sin to show respect of persons in judgment. [/QUOTE]Respect for people in judgment? There is no respect for people in judgment. Those who die in their sins are condemned...enemies of God. There is no respect.

Matthew 7:23 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

Matthew 25:41 1 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

I do not see respect for the condemned in these passages. [/QUOTE]We're not talking about condemnation, but "Redeemption", as in dying for the sin of the whole world so the whole world might be saved.

Calvibaptist · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by Me4Him:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Right. The sins of people everywhere, not just Jews. Not just the Roman world.

That's "people without distinction".

You want it to mean "people without exception". [/QUOTE]Exactly, and so does God, it's a sin to show respect of persons in judgment. [/QUOTE]Respect for people in judgment? There is no respect for people in judgment. Those who die in their sins are condemned...enemies of God. There is no respect.

Matthew 7:23 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

Matthew 25:41 1 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

I do not see respect for the condemned in these passages. [/QUOTE]We're not talking about condemnation, but "Redeemption", as in dying for the sin of the whole world so the whole world might be saved. [/QUOTE]But you did not say respect of persons in redemption. You said "respect of persons in judgment." At least you go the original context of the phrase right. But God does have respect of persons in redemption. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Apparently God forgot to check with you first to see if He could do something.

webdog · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by J.D.:
Webdog

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can I love someone more than God does?

O.K. I'll take a bite at that. My theologically untrained reaction is yes, in a sense you can love someone more than God does.

God's love is predicated on knowing, or rather, fore-knowing, and he does not love those whom he does not know. "Depart from me...I never knew you"

So you may know your mother, and love her, as I do mine, but the question is: Does God know her? If God does not know her, then He does not love her?

Does he hate her? I don't know - I think "hate" can be understood both ways - so either way the question is, does He love her with that special love that He has for those whom He foreknew?

When TV preachers look into the camera and say that they love me, I always react within myself "no you don't! You don't even know me. What if I were a serial pedophile? You wouldn't say that."

I don't think you can disconnect "loving" from "knowing", either for man or God. [/QUOTE]If I can love someone more than God, God ceases to be God. If I can do ANYTHING more or better than God (as goes along with His nature, not including sin) could then love the "world" more than God, love sinners more than God, etc. How can God be sovereign if I can love another human being more than God loves that person?

webdog · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Webdog, re the yes or no,,, the point I was trying to make is that if something (hate) is predicated of God and also of humans, it does not follow that this thing be equal when applied to either case. That is, when God loves and we love, it is obvious, or ought to be, that we do not love in exactly the same way. If I am to “love less” as far as my flesh and parents go, it does not seem to follow that God, when He is said to hate workers of iniquity, He merely loves them less. The Hebrew does not seem to allow this, and it is doubtful that God loves the sinner being tormented in Hell right now or in the future. Indeed, God’s hatred will burn for all eternity against such persons.

You say “If you take the greek as a possible meaning of "love less" here, but not the hebrew, then the text where Paul quoted the OT "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" would carry the same possible meaning of "love less".”
Possibly. The point is, Psalm 5:5 speaks of God as hating some in the world, therefore the proposition that says “God loves the whole world” when taken to mean absolutely, must be false. There are some whom He hates.

Is there some problem with the general idea that God hates someone? Is there anything in His attributes that precludes such a thing? Or is it pop culture’s watering down of God’s fierce anger/wrath/hatred against sin and sinners that makes the concept so hard to swallow? Is it because too many have swallowed the popular maxim “God hates the sin but loves the sinner?” Where is that in Scripture? God does not throw sin into Hell without also throwing the person responsible for it as well.

Just because God is love, it does not follow that He cannot hate. Or, if you do not like the word “hate”, come up with some other word for it, the point is, whatever word you attach to the concept, God looks with (insert adjective that means "to hate") upon all those who have not (those already in eternity) and will not (in the future) turn to Him for forgiveness.

As for the “some” that God hates, the Scripture seems to be saying that God hates those who are in perpetual disobedience to Him. I am sorry that I took it as obvious that since we are all sinners and thus workers of iniquity, and that if we looked at the situation based on this point alone, none would be saved….. so to spell it out a little more fully, since it is the case some are saved, it follows therefore that God’s hatred does not extend to all, but the point of all this is to say that it does extend to some.

I do interpret Scripture with Scripture.

blessings,
Ken

If you take Ps. 5:5 as God hates (opposite or absence of love) all workers of iniquity, can you tell me who besides Christ this would not apply to?

Can I love someone more than God does?

webdog · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
Romans 9:13 13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Did God really hate Esau? No. This verse is a theanthropism as I explained in my previous post. It is a way in which God is explaining, in human terms, the impact of his sovereign choice. Consider the impact on the hearer of the words love and hate. Are they not polar opposites? God used another theanthropism in the Psalms. Psalm 103:12 12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. We see another theanthropism in Isaiah. Isaiah 55:8-9 8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. Of course the throughts of finite man cannot match the thoughts of an infinite God. How far much higher is heaven than the earth? We don't know. It is a theanthropism. It is used to accenuate a point. That is why scripture cannot be taken literal without understanding the context...including metaphor, theanthropisms and anthropomorphisms.

Hi Bill..glad to meet you,

I do not come up here much in the Baptist forum, but things were kinda light in the "other" forum. 1st, I am Baptist.

It is wrong to say this passage is a theanthropism. Other than that..i agree with you. The reason why is that this would change the context of the passage. While it maybe hard to read this my many, the passage is clear. Lets look at it again. Notice it is a list of black and white.

1) God takes the 1st second son....over the first son.

(NOTES ON ONE: this would be no rebate if God choose the 1st Son..for to us that seems the right way to do it...But this is Gods way)

2) God will have mercy...verses... no mercy....black and white

3) God will have compassion...verses...no compassion... black and white

God loves....verses...?? (black and white)

what is at the other end? If you do not like the word hate...use a word that means the same thing.

It is not right to say this is.."not love as much"...that is not black and white.

Its not "kinda likes".

It must be on the other side of love. This is seen in the context from the full list. Change the word if you must, but do not change the context. Maybe its hard to believe..but do not change the context. Maybe you HATE the word hate..as something God could do...but do not change the context. if you do not understand...

DO NOT CHANGE THE CONTEXT.

If this were a theanthropism, then the word "love" must be changed as well...to fit the context.

Context is KING

In Christ...James [/QUOTE]James, taking your "black or white" approach, I am to hate my parents...making me a murderer according to Christ. You're right when the word "love" needs to be changed as well. The context of love is no different than hate.

I can actually say I agree with Bill Brown on this one.

On the other hand, Bill Brown, if God loves the sinner (He does), why does God send them to Hell unconditionally? What "love" is that?

epistemaniac · Apr 18, 2006

webdog, I answered your first question, look at my earlier post..... it was
"As for the “some” that God hates, the Scripture seems to be saying that God hates those who are in perpetual disobedience to Him. I am sorry that I took it as obvious that since we are all sinners and thus workers of iniquity, and that if we looked at the situation based on this point alone, none would be saved….. so to spell it out a little more fully, since it is the case some are saved, it follows therefore that God’s hatred does not extend to all, but the point of all this is to say that it does extend to some."

are you reading the posts? if so, and there is something you disagree with, spell it out, don't play games by asking the same question until you get the answer you want, you may be waiting a long time for something like that

as for the second question, what is it exactly you are getting at, how do you quantify love, what are the units of measurement you are using?

in terms of "loving more", from the perspective of the power the love or hatred can exert in the other person's life, in one sense, of course you can't love anyone more than God can, God is infinite you are not, nor can you hate someone more than God can... your love will never save someone's soul in eternity, nor will your hatred send someone to hell for eternity.

in terms of the perfections God has, it is obvious that everything that God does, and all the attributes God possesses, supercedes human capabilities and attributes in every way... God is a perfect being who has no potentialities, He is fully actualized in every way....

if you are trying to trap me with your question regarding the command we have to love others, and that God would not command us to do what He Himself does not do eg commanding us to not hate etc, then your trap is immediately ruled out because God's activities and ours are not comparable in a strict sense… God can love perfectly, and hate perfectly, ie without sin, we cannot.

blessings,
Ken

webdog · Apr 18, 2006

I'm not playing word games, nor am I trying to "trap" you. You did not answer the question the first time I posed it to you.

as for the second question, what is it exactly you are getting at, how do you quantify love, what are the units of measurement you are using?

What "units of measurement"? Are you serious? The question is simple: can I love another human being more than God?

in terms of "loving more", from the perspective of the power the love or hatred can exert in the other person's life, in one sense, of course you can't love anyone more than God can, God is infinite you are not

I agree. You claim that God hates all workers of iniquity, which includes everyone. If I love just one person, I have loved that person more than God.

nor can you hate someone more than God can... your love will never save someone's soul in eternity, nor will your hatred send someone to hell for eternity.

This is not biblical. Christ says that if we hate, we have committed murder in our hearts. Are you calling God a murderer? People don't go to Hell because God hates them, they go to Hell for not believing that God sent His only Son to atone for them because God LOVES THEM that much!

if you are trying to trap me with your question regarding the command we have to love others, and that God would not command us to do what He Himself does not do eg commanding us to not hate etc, then your trap is immediately ruled out because God's activities and ours are not comparable in a strict sense… God can love perfectly, and hate perfectly, ie without sin, we cannot.

A "perfect hate"? Talk about word games!
You really believe God would command us to do something righteous that He Himself would not do?

You must have problems with these:
Matt 5
44 ""But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 ""For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 ""If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 ""Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1Cor 2
16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

(Does God not know Himself?!?)

1 John 3:14-15 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."

Calvibaptist · Apr 18, 2006

Originally posted by webdog:
If I can love someone more than God, God ceases to be God. If I can do ANYTHING more or better than God (as goes along with His nature, not including sin) could then love the "world" more than God, love sinners more than God, etc. How can God be sovereign if I can love another human being more than God loves that person?

Webdog, your post only works if God intends to do the thing we claim to do more. For instance, I sin pretty well. I bet that I can sin more than God can. Does this make God less God because I can do something more than He? Obviously not.

But you are missing an important point. The point is that God Himself says He has a special love for some that He does not have for others. Even if you deny unmerited election, you have to admit that the love that God has for believers as His children is greater than the love that God has for unbelievers who die spitting in His face.

We just believe that the love that God has for his children extends backwards to before time began. Ooops. The Bible says this as well...

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

webdog · Apr 18, 2006

Webdog, your post only works if God intends to do the thing we claim to do more. For instance, I sin pretty well. I bet that I can sin more than God can. Does this make God less God because I can do something more than He? Obviously not.

I stated "that goes along with His nature" which does not include sin. Rape, murder, lying, and HATE are sins. Of course we can sin more than God, as God does not sin.

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