Frustration over debate about Calvinism

[Amy.G]

The statement was that faith was not a supernatural gift. The scripture I quoted shows otherwise.

However, thanks for the input and feel free to jump right on in. The water is fine and people are being nice.:1_grouphug:

peace to youraying:

Ahhh. I misunderstood. Yes, faith is of God, but He has created all people to be able to exercise faith. We do it all the time. I have faith that my car will start tomorrow morning and carry me safely to church.
Salvation depends on who you put your faith in. Some have faith in Allah, some Buddha, some themselves or their works. But they have "believed in vain". They put their faith in the wrong person, but it is faith nontheless.

 

[Winman]

Matt.13:10 "And the disciples came and said to Him, 'Why do You speak to them in parables?' (v.11) And He answered and said to them, 'To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them, it has not been granted.'"

Well, you are leaving out something here, the disciples did not understand the parables either.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Matt 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

So if you read, the disciples did not understand the parables any more than others, and Jesus had to explain (expounded) them.

And thanks for your input Amy, you are correct, the supernatural gifts were given to believers, this is not speaking of saving faith necessarily. But it might, and I do have to consider that.

 

[canadyjd]

Well, you are leaving out something here, the disciples did not understand the parables either.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Matt 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

So if you read, the disciples did not understand the parables any more than others, and Jesus had to explain (expounded) them.

And you are not seeing the obvious.

Jesus is God. Jesus is revealing to His disciples certain things about salvation that He is not revealing to others.

And, once again, you do not answer the questions.

If God desires everyone on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things from some and reveal it to others?

If 2 Peter 3:9 means that God wants all people to come to repentance and none to perish, why does Peter say in 2:9 that God knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgement?

peace to youraying:

 

[psalms109:31]

scrpture

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 16
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

 

[psalms109:31]

Unrighteous

Isn't the unrighteous those without faith in Jesus? Yeah they are kept for judgment, but God has made us His messenger.

Romans 10
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

2 Corinthians 5
20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

[Winman]

I did answer, see post #240 on page 24.

I will post a portion of that thread here.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

These scriptures make it clear that God has revealed himself to all men, so that no one has an excuse.

The problem is that people love evil and hate God. So God gives them up. He quits calling them and allows them to perish.

And God allows those that love evil to be deceived.

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God reveals himself to all men, so that no man has an excuse. But if men love evil and unrighteousness, then God allows their minds and hearts to be blinded and deceived. But it is their own fault not God's.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

[canadyjd]

I did answer, see post #240 on page 24.

I will post a portion of that thread here.

Rom 1:18..... (to 31)
These scriptures make it clear that God has revealed himself to all men, so that no one has an excuse.

This passage refers to general revelation found in creation, which saved no one. It does not refer to special revelation found in the person of Jesus Christ.

The problem is that people love evil and hate God. So God gives them up. He quits calling them and allows them to perish.

And God allows those that love evil to be deceived.

So, again, God desires every person on the planet to be saved, but gives up on some and does not give up on others. God allows some to perish, but does not allow others to perish.

And how does God make His decision on whom He will give up on? Well, the people that "love evil and hate God". The only trouble with that theory is that we all loved evil and hated God before salvation, so how did God make the distinction?

Unless, of course, you believe some people merited their salvation because they weren't quite as evil as those whom God gave up on. Is that what you believe?

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

That passage is speaking of the end times and the coming anti-christ.

Read a little further.... 2 Thess. 2:13 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (14) And it was for this He called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

God chose them for salvation, sanctified (set apart) by Holy Spirit and faith in the truth.

That passage really doesn't help your position at all.

God reveals himself to all men, so that no man has no excuse. But if men love evil and unrighteousness, then God allows their minds and hearts to be blinded and deceived. But it is their own fault not God's.

So, the ones who don't love evil are the ones that earn their salvation, right?

And no, you didn't answer the questions. You avoided anwering the questions by posting long passages of scripture that doesn't support your position.

If God desires all people on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things from some and reveal it to others? (Will you please answer this question directly?)

If 2 Peter 3:9 means that God wants every person on the planet to come to repentance and not perish, why does Peter say in 2:9 that God knows how to keep the unrighteous for the day of judgment? (Will you please asnwer this question directly?)

peace to youraying:

 

[saturneptune]

Free will has sent millions to hell. Only Free Grace can take a sinner to heaven. It is always amazing to me that Christians want a 'Sovereign God' in every area of the universe and their lives, EXCEPT when it comes to the most important thing of all ... salvation. There, the sinner's will must over-rule that will of the Sovereign Lord. Isn't that sad?

Free will sends no one to hell. Dying in your sins without the Lord sends one to hell. I know of no one who believes a mix of sovereignty and free will as you describe. The reason no one believes that is free will is only exercised within the framework of God's Sovereignty.

You forgot to add that grace through faith saves a person also. Faith is a gift of God. God's Grace exists whether or not you have faith. Take some time to read the flow of the threads and understand what people believe. Either way does not make your way correct. There is a difference between Biblical truth and opinion.

 

[Me4Him]

And how does God make His decision on whom He will give up on? Well, the people that "love evil and hate God". The only trouble with that theory is that we all loved evil and hated God before salvation, so how did God make the distinction?

Unless, of course, you believe some people merited their salvation because they weren't quite as evil as those whom God gave up on. Is that what you believe?

If God was really serious about not being willing for any to perish and by foreknowledge knew many would perish before he laid the foundation of the world,

"WHY" did God continue with this plan of salvation??

Why is it so "important" to the plan of salvation God had to give Adam/mankind a "Choice" in that plan knowing people are going to perish and that God "Repented/Grieved" he made man and his spirit would "STRIVE" to save man????

If everything is progesssing "as predestine", why the repenting/grieving/striving???

There are some things even God can't do, and "LOVE" tops that list,

Love can't be forced from another person, Love is a "FREE WILL CHOICE" of the person, or God,

in the same way God is free to love/chose whom he will, man is free to love/chose whom he will.

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.

If God is going to have a new earth where love exist, man will have to be given the "CHOICE" to love, even if it repents/grieves God that all men will not be saved, even though God provided an "Equal opportunity". (free gift)

God, not being a "respecter of persons" (sinners) loved the whole world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

"LOVE/FAITH" go hand in hand, and we can "CHOSE" to keep/break these two commandments.

Pr 8:17 I love them that love me;

Predestination teaches that God does what he couldn't/didn't do at the start, create a group of "robots" controlled by God's will and with no "WILL" of their own.

But it also accuses God of "NOT LOVING" certain people, violating one of his own commandments.

If God desires all people on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things from some and reveal it to others? (Will you please answer this question directly?)

peace to youraying:

In the OT, only certain people were allowed to perform certain task, any "un-authorized" person attempting to perform these task run the risk of losing their life.

"Touching the Ark, entering the Holy of Holies, or offering sacrifices",

"Believe it or not", The "Word of God" (flesh/written) is "HOLY" as well.

Scripture is only "hid" to those "un-authorized" (not saved) to teach/preach.

Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.


1Co 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Free will sends no one to hell. Dying in your sins without the Lord sends one to hell. I know of no one who believes a mix of sovereignty and free will as you describe. The reason no one believes that is free will is only exercised within the framework of God's Sovereignty.

You forgot to add that grace through faith saves a person also. Faith is a gift of God. God's Grace exists whether or not you have faith. Take some time to read the flow of the threads and understand what people believe. Either way does not make your way correct. There is a difference between Biblical truth and opinion.

What I forgot was to say this was a quote. From C.H. Spurgeon.

A sinner's will is free to sin. Only by the sovereign interposing of the Holy Spirit can that man be brought savingly to Christ. And that is grace.

Oh, and by the way, I do read the posts, and have seen the difference between Biblical truth and your opinion.

 

[webdog]

A sinner's will is free to sin. Only by the sovereign interposing of the Holy Spirit can that man be brought savingly to Christ. And that is grace.

I don't know of one non-cal who will disagree with this statement.

Oh, and by the way, I do read the posts, and have seen the difference between Biblical truth and your opinion.

...then look in the mirror and see the difference between biblical truth and your opinion as well. Spurgeon was a man, btw. As Saturneptune stated, free will sends no man to hell.

 

[saturneptune]

What I forgot was to say this was a quote. From C.H. Spurgeon.

A sinner's will is free to sin. Only by the sovereign interposing of the Holy Spirit can that man be brought savingly to Christ. And that is grace.

Oh, and by the way, I do read the posts, and have seen the difference between Biblical truth and your opinion.

You can quote all the dead theologians you wish, but that does not change one word in the Bible. When you base your conclusions on Scripture and not mortal man, I will listen. Until then, it is just your opinion, and second hand at that. As the Bible says, symbols make a clanging noise. The point is that you have no more idea about the doctrines of grace and sovereignty vs free will than anyone else. There are those on this board who has studied this for a long time, have advanced theological degrees, and come to different conclusions. That tells me you do not have a clue. By the way, many of these learned people have a good number of years on this board.

 

[Me4Him]

Prophets told the people in the OT what God wanted them to know, they didn't have a "comforter", and for the most part, they complied, "By faith".

Israel/Rich Ruler had a "Zeal" for God, having "FAITH" in God, but not in "Jesus".

And likewise, people around the world have "FAITH" in some kind of god.

I don't know where this idea came from that people can't have faith, or believe in anything/any god they chose, unless it is given to them by God,

but the evidence against it is everywhere in the world.

The primary message of Jesus was to "believe/have faith" in his doctrine rather than the doctrine of these "other gods".

If man doesn't have a "choice" of whom he is going to believe, most of what Jesus said is worthless to us.

Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

De 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;

Even this debate/disagreement is proof we can have "Faith" in different doctrines.

 

[OldRegular]

Ahhh. I misunderstood. Yes, faith is of God, but He has created all people to be able to exercise faith. We do it all the time. I have faith that my car will start tomorrow morning and carry me safely to church.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Holy Spirit, page 140 makes the following argument regarding saving faith [Paraphrased for brevity.]

“It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows :

Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?”

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless. “

Salvation depends on who you put your faith in. Some have faith in Allah, some Buddha, some themselves or their works. But they have "believed in vain". They put their faith in the wrong person, but it is faith nontheless.

Very true. That is one reason saving faith must be the gift of God.

 

[Amy.G]

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Holy Spirit, page 140 makes the following argument regarding saving faith [Paraphrased for brevity.]

“It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows :

Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?”

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless. “

And I had an understanding that if I did not turn to God and receive Jesus Christ as my Savior, the probability that I would go to hell was certain. Therefore, I put my faith in Him.

That is one reason saving faith must be the gift of God.

I do not see it the way you do. Salvation is the gift of God that is spoken of.

 

[OldRegular]

And I had an understanding that if I did not turn to God and receive Jesus Christ as my Savior, the probability that I would go to hell was certain. Therefore, I put my faith in Him.

That understanding and that faith are both the gift of God just as you note in your following statement. Salvation is indeed a GIFT.

I do not see it the way you do. Salvation is the gift of God that is spoken of.

 

[Jerome]

Free will has sent millions to hell. Only Free Grace can take a sinner to heaven. It is always amazing to me that Christians want a 'Sovereign God' in every area of the universe and their lives, EXCEPT when it comes to the most important thing of all ... salvation. There, the sinner's will must over-rule that will of the Sovereign Lord. Isn't that sad?

What I forgot was to say this was a quote. From C.H. Spurgeon.

A sinner's will is free to sin. Only by the sovereign interposing of the Holy Spirit can that man be brought savingly to Christ. And that is grace.

Oh, and by the way, I do read the posts, and have seen the difference between Biblical truth and your opinion.

Hmm...what Spurgeon sermon is that from?

 

[Me4Him]

OT people never had a "Indwelling Comforter", which is the "Holy "GHOST OF JESUS", speaking "DIRECTLY" to each person,

the "Holy Spirit" spoke to the prophets/kings/Priest and they in turn told the people.

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

The pre trib rapture of the church will remove the "comforter" from the world and Israel will again go back under the "Law and prophets" system of the OT, this is why the temple is rebuild and the "TWO WITNESSES", Law giver Moses and Elijah the prophet will reappear.

As Chastisement from God's "ROD", the Antichrist, to be saved during the trib will require one to "literally" sacrifice the "body of sin", this is those killed and under the altar for their testimony of Christ and refusing to worship the beast image.

And being back under the L/P system, they "WILL NOT HAVE A COMFORTER", speaking (calling) to each individual person.

The Holy Spirit will work through the two witnesses/144000 to convince Israel of the truth, and of course Satan will be working through the false prophet calling fire down from heaven to convince them of a lie.

Now here's the problem, when your doctrine is based "Strictly" on the condition that exist during this period of "GRACE" (Church age/we don't literally die to be saved/we have a comforter) and without any consideration of how people would be saved when the conditions of this Grace period ends,

There's a 99.99% chance your doctrine will be wrong.

Crucifying the body of sin (flesh) doesn't change, since those "in body of Christ" have been healed by "his stripe", we don't literally die, but those saved during the trib will suffer those "Stripes" in their own flesh and "literally die" as Chastisment, and they will have to do it without the assistance of the "Comforter".

 

[Winman]

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless. “

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but it is not the word of God. The fact is, when a person boards an airplane, that is a real act of faith, you are trusting your very life to the safety of the craft and the ability of the pilots. There are some people who absolutely refuse to fly because they do not have faith in flying.

And saving faith comes from knowledge. Without the scriptues, we would not know or understand God. We would not know about Jesus Christ dying for our sins. We would not know that by trusting or believeing on Christ that we receive everlasting life. So, in the sense that we could not know of Christ and place our faith in him without the scriptures, yes, it is a gift.

But as Amy pointed out, many place their faith in works, or false gods and saviours. And the Bible shows this.

Isa 42:17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

So, it is clear from scripture that people can have faith and trust in false gods. If faith is a supernatural gift from God, then this faith in false gods is from God himself.

And as we obtain faith in God by hearing God's word, a person can have faith by listening to lies as well.

Jer 28:15 Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet, Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie.
16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.
17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.


Here Jeremiah rebukes Hananiah who was teaching lies to the people. And it is clear that God had not sent him. But the scriptures themselves say he caused the people to trust in a lie.

So, faith comes by hearing. If you listen to God your trust will be in God, if you listen to lies, your faith will be in lies.

And why would God command us to trust in God if faith were a gift from God?

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

This whole doctrine of yours makes no sense. If God gives man faith as a gift, then God would not need to command a man to have faith. And if God determines that other men would have no faith, then a command to have faith would be meaningless and pointless.

The scriptures clearly show that faith comes by hearing. A man can listen to God and have faith in God, or a man can choose to listen to lies and have faith in lies.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And further proof that faith comes by hearing God's word and is not some supernatural gift that God imposes on a man apart from his will is Romans 10:14

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

This verse is speaking of salvation, of believeing on Christ. And here points out that a man cannot believe on Christ unless he hears the scriptures. God does not impose faith on a man. A man must hear and sincerely listen to the scriptures, or to a preacher who preaches the word of God. Either way, faith comes by hearing.

 

[OldRegular]

Posted by Old Regular
In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless. “

Response by Winamn
Well, that's all fine and dandy, but it is not the word of God. The fact is, when a person boards an airplane, that is a real act of faith, you are trusting your very life to the safety of the craft and the ability of the pilots. There are some people who absolutely refuse to fly because they do not have faith in flying.

I did not say that it was the word of God. In fact I said it was the paraphrased word of Martyn Lloyd-Jones. However, if your faith in God is the same as your faith in flying on a plane or expecting your car to start you should reexamine your faith in God. That faith is a Gift.

It is true that people can believe lies. However since saving faith is the gift of God they will believe the truth. Incidentally that is not my doctrine it is the doctrine of Scripture. If you are not sufficiently perceptive or mature to understand that then I suggest you spend more time in study. God will eventually remove the scales.