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Full-Preterism/Hyper-Preterism: A Damnable Heresy

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Rather than derail another thread with a bunny trail, I thought to start this one because the ugly head of hyper-preterism seemed to pop up. I briefly rebuked the doctrine laying its condemnation under the authority of Scripture in 2 Timothy 2 of the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus.

For the record, modern hyper-preterism teaching that the Second Coming of Christ, the general ressurection, and the Great White Throne Judgment are past. What could be called preterism, and what is today styled as partial-preterism, is that some prophetic events described in the Scriptures have been fulfilled. This would be different from the futurist interpretations of prophecy.

There seems to be some debate as to what exactly these heretics in Paul's day were teaching. It it not unclear that they were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. The text itself in 2Tim 2 clearly tell us this. But was this a physical resurrection? A spiritual one? I don't think it matters. If it mattered that much, I suppose the Holy Spirit would have told us. What matters is that the effect of their teaching led Christians NOT to look for a future resurrection of the dead after the same manner as the Lord Jesus Christ and it over-threw the faith of some.

This is exactly what hyper-preterism does. But it goes even further, just like a canker gets bigger, so has this heresy gone further than what we find in the text of Scripture. Not only does HP (hyper-preterism) deny a future resurrection, it denies a future return of Jesus Christ in bodily form! When dear Christians face their death, they have no hope of a resurrection of their bodies! Nor have they any hope of the coming of Jesus Christ! Brethren, this is a damnable heresy. It takes away the Christian's hope.

The Bible teaches the physical return of Jesus Christ in the body that He died in. the very physcial body that was crucified was also raised from the dead. As Christians, we are crucified with Him and raised with Him from the dead. Christ is the first-fruits, and then we at His coming.

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:23

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead." 1 Cor 15:19-21

These texts of Scripture are not speaking of a spiritual resurrection, but a physical one. The body of human beings are not prisons for the soul of man. The body is good, not evil, as the gnostic heresy teaches. Yes, the body is corruptable and natural, and our new bodies will be spiritual (yet physical). But we as true Christians are waiting for the redemption of our bodies. The very ones that we are in! On what do we rest our hope? On the death and resurrection of Christ Himself.

Hyper-preterism denies these things. It is also contrary to every orthodox creed and confession of the church from the very first ones we possess. Why is this significant? Of so many things the church has wrestled with over the centuries, the physical and bodily return of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead (physical) has been in every one of them. There has been no significant disagreement on this for 2,000 years. This places hyper-preterism so outside of historic Christianity that it is baffeling to me that men would even dare to espouse it.

Don't be tricked into this old heresy my brethren. Hold fast to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures.

RB
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Grasshopper,

Let's just cut the nonsense. If you defend the full-preterism view (which it seems you do) then tell us all plainly: Do you affirm or deny a future physical ressurection of the bodies of both the just and unjust?

RB

I posted this in the previous thread. Please answer it if you will. Thanks.
 

Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
ReformedBaptist said:
I posted this in the previous thread. Please answer it if you will. Thanks.

As soon as you answer mine. Don't demand answers when you refuse to answer questions posed at you.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Originally Posted by ReformedBaptist
When dear Christians face their death, they have no hope of a resurrection of their bodies! Nor have they any hope of the coming of Jesus Christ! Brethren, this is a damnable heresy. It takes away the Christian's hope.
I am not familiar with the Preterist view, but after some reading, this statement is exactly what I thought to myself. There is no hope. I feel despair at the thought that Jesus has already returned. Although I don't believe it's true because there are too many scriptures to the contrary.


Act 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

How does the Preterist square this Scripture with the belief that Jesus has already come, but not in physical form?
 

Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
Amy.G said:
I am not familiar with the Preterist view, but after some reading, this statement is exactly what I thought to myself. There is no hope.

Have all who died previously die not realizing their hope?

I feel despair at the thought that Jesus has already returned. Although I don't believe it's true because there are too many scriptures to the contrary.

I would like to see the verses you say are to the contrary. James 5:8 perhaps?


Act 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

How does the Preterist square this Scripture with the belief that Jesus has already come, but not in physical form?

These are the strongest verses in favor of a physical return of Christ, but even these have their problems. What does "like manner" mean? Is this describing "like manner":

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Acts 1 says nothing of angels and flaming fire.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Do these verses in Revelation in any was describe in "like manner" how Jesus left in Acts 1?

What do you do with this:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom

What were the ones standing there going to see? Is verse 27 not connected to verse 28? Does verse 28 actually precede verse 27 by thousands of years?

If you are truly interested then watch this and follow his logic:

In the Glory of the Father:

http://www.thereignofchrist.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=430&Itemid=353

 
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Allan

Active Member
Grasshopper said:
Have all who died previously die not realizing their hope?



These are the strongest verses in favor of a physical return of Christ, but even these have their problems. What does "like manner" mean? Is this describing "like manner":

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Acts 1 says nothing of angels and flaming fire.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Do these verses in Revelation in any was describe in "like manner" how Jesus left in Acts 1?

What do you do with this:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom

What were the ones standing there going to see? Is verse 27 not connected to verse 28? Does verse 28 actually precede verse 27 by thousands of years?

If you are truly interested then watch this and follow his logic:

In the Glory of the Father:

http://www.thereignofchrist.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=430&Itemid=353

"Like manner" simply refers to the fact that they 'saw' Jesus assending into Heaven which means He will be 'seen' decending at His return.

All that you posted, are merely the things that will transpire 'at' His return.
 

JDale

Member
Site Supporter
From a post in the other thread:

Grasshopper said:
Quote:



What error? Gill says the events of AD70 were a "coming of the son of man" was he right? You never answered the question. Owen says 2 Peter speaks of the end of the Mosaic economy not the end of the world. Do you agree? Spurgeon says the Tribulation was in the events of AD70, do you agree?

Dispies say all those events occur at the time of Christ's return. Do you agree?

Full preterists say they are both right.





Know of anyone's whose faith has been destroyed?




Ever heard of sola scriptura? Strange coming from someone who says they are Reformed. If I believed in the authority if creeds and councils I'd probably be a Catholic.




Yet you don't refute it with scripture. Was Gill wrong in placing a "coming of the son of man" in the events of AD70?


]

It is one thing to have beliefs, it is yet another to explain and defend those beliefs.


Lemme see if I can succinctly answer some of these questions:

Was Gill wrong about AD70 being "a coming of the son of man"? YES.
Was Owen wrong about 2 Peter? YES
Was Spurgeon right about the events of 70AD being the Tribulation? NO.
Do Dispies agree these events are tied to Jesus' 2nd Coming? YES -- IN THE FUTURE.
Know of anyone whose faith was destroyed? YES -- at least Paul did. Many in Thessalonica.
Do you believe in Sola Scriptura? YES -- which is why I reject a spurious doctrine teaching Jesus has already come.
Was Gill wrong in placing the 2nd Coming in the events of 70AD (Reprise)? YES


John wrote Revelation around 95AD, some 25 years after Jerusalem fell and the Temple was destroyed. His cry was, "Even so, Lord Come!" To [mis]understand Matthew as Preterists do is to ignore the evidence of the later dated Johannine writings, and so to fall into the error many Thessalonicans did.
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come (II Thessalonians 2:1,2).

JDale
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Grasshopper said:
As soon as you answer mine. Don't demand answers when you refuse to answer questions posed at you.

Well grasshopper, if you read my question to you above I asked if you would answer it, and thanked you in advance for answering it, so that is hardly "demanding" an answer from you. I posed my question the way I did on purpose so that it would not appear to be demanding.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

Active Member
Site Supporter
Christ DIED for our sins. He ROSE AGAIN the third day. If Christ be preached that he ROSE FROM THE DEAD, how say some among you that there is no RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD? Christ is RISEN FROM THE DEAD, the firstfuits of them that slept. By man came DEATH; By man came the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. The last enemy is DEATH.

The only way to wrest what Scripture teaches concerning the resurrection of the dead is to redefine "death." That is precisely what Preterists have done.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
I read the Preterist Theory one evening. I read the Newspaper next morning. I no longer believed the Preterist Theory had any meaning. Satan is NOT bound, he is going around like a Roaring Lion devouring folks here and there.

Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible):
Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Two things we look for;

1. that blessed hope (the pre-tribulation gathering of the saints
2. that appearing of the Glory of God in our Savior Messiah Jesus
(to whip the Devil & the devil's crowd)

(The non-saved are NOT looking forward to the Lord's coming - they'll be zapped.)
 

Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
Ed Edwards said:
I read the Preterist Theory one evening. I read the Newspaper next morning. I no longer believed the Preterist Theory had any meaning. Satan is NOT bound, he is going around like a Roaring Lion devouring folks here and there.

Why am I not suprised your education of preterism consists of one whole evening.
 

rdwhite

New Member
Grasshopper said:
Why am I not suprised your education of preterism consists of one whole evening.
Any student of the Bible would only need an evening to determine that preterism is heretical. It does not take weeks or months of study to realize a false doctrine. Your reply to Ed is demeaning and insinuates that he is ignorant for his belief. On the contrary, Ed is rather intelligent and was able to debunk an heretical doctrine with little effort.

You know, if someone tried to pay me with a six dollar bill, it wouldn't take very much thought to determine that bill was fake. The same is true of preterism, it does not take time and study to determine those teachings to be false.
 

Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
rdwhite said:
Any student of the Bible would only need an evening to determine that preterism is heretical. It does not take weeks or months of study to realize a false doctrine. Your reply to Ed is demeaning and insinuates that he is ignorant for his belief. On the contrary, Ed is rather intelligent and was able to debunk an heretical doctrine with little effort.

You know, if someone tried to pay me with a six dollar bill, it wouldn't take very much thought to determine that bill was fake. The same is true of preterism, it does not take time and study to determine those teachings to be false.

But it wasn't until he read the newspaper the next day did he discover preterism was wrong. Why? Because dispies use newspaper exegesis when it comes to eschatology. Read any dispie throughout the years, everything happening in the world at that time somehow was fulfilling prophecy. Sorry you take the same view. You use the NY Times, I'll use the Bible.
 

rdwhite

New Member
Grasshopper said:
But it wasn't until he read the newspaper the next day did he discover preterism was wrong. Why? Because dispies use newspaper exegesis when it comes to eschatology. Read any dispie throughout the years, everything happening in the world at that time somehow was fulfilling prophecy. Sorry you take the same view. You use the NY Times, I'll use the Bible.
We are commanded by the Lord to watch and be ready. Looking at current events demonstrates the condition of society. In each generation, there are types of anti-Christ and conditions that prove society falls further and further into debauchery. Newspaper exegesis teaches us that man is sick and in need of divine intervention. As we look at current events, we hope that our Lord will soon return, just as godly men in each generation. To believe that our society is advancing morally, is to be blinded spiritually.

I am curious, since you must spiritualize future events, do you also spiritualize past events? If the thousand year reign of Christ is not literal, then perhaps the rest of scripture. Do you believe the creation was metaphorical, along with the flood, and the exodus, the judges, the kings, and the life of Christ? If not, then how do you determine which parts are to be spiritualized and which parts are to be taken literally?

Your practice of casting ignorance on those who disagree with your view is a weak tactic that demonstrates immaturity in your ability to defend your doctrine. The Bible is my final authority in all matters of faith and practice. I do not read the New York Times, but I am aware of the debased condition of our world. I am looking for that blessed hope, earnestly contending for the faith.
 

Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
rdwhite said:
We are commanded by the Lord to watch and be ready.

No, Jesus' 1st century audience was commanded to be ready and watch.

Looking at current events demonstrates the condition of society.

So. What does that have to to with biblical exegesis?

In each generation, there are types of anti-Christ and conditions that prove society falls further and further into debauchery.

Show me where Jesus or any of the writers taught of this coming anti-christ.


Newspaper exegesis teaches us that man is sick and in need of divine intervention.

Wow, you're the first to admit you actually use newspaper exegesis.

As we look at current events, we hope that our Lord will soon return, just as godly men in each generation.

What current events will lead you to assume such a thing? Define "soon".

To believe that our society is advancing morally, is to be blinded spiritually.

Didn't realize the Dark Ages were so good.

I am curious, since you must spiritualize future events, do you also spiritualize past events? If the thousand year reign of Christ is not literal, then perhaps the rest of scripture. Do you believe the creation was metaphorical, along with the flood, and the exodus, the judges, the kings, and the life of Christ?

Since you don't take the time statements of the NT literal do you believe the creation was metaphorical, along with the flood, and the exodus, the judges, the kings, and the life of Christ?

If not, then how do you determine which parts are to be spiritualized and which parts are to be taken literally?

I use a strange method which basically says let scripture interpret scripture. So when I see the OT writers use certain types of language then see the NT writers use the exact language I assume they both are using it in the same way. Strange I know.

Your practice of casting ignorance on those who disagree with your view is a weak tactic that demonstrates immaturity in your ability to defend your doctrine.

I give you the benfit of the doubt since you are new here but I am very capable of defending my position. You have yet to demonstate anything. Care to actually start defending yours? Would you like to start with Rev 1:3 or Isaiah 65-66 or perhaps Eze. 37. You pick, or you can remain in the stands and just throw eggs.
 
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Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
rdwhite said:
Any student of the Bible would only need an evening to determine that preterism is heretical. It does not take weeks or months of study to realize a false doctrine. Your reply to Ed is demeaning and insinuates that he is ignorant for his belief. On the contrary, Ed is rather intelligent and was able to debunk an heretical doctrine with little effort.

You know, if someone tried to pay me with a six dollar bill, it wouldn't take very much thought to determine that bill was fake. The same is true of preterism, it does not take time and study to determine those teachings to be false.

Amen, Brother Rdwhite -- Preach it! :thumbs:

If you happen to have two of those 6$ bills, I'll trade you my 12$ bill for 'um. (there will be slight fee for handling & shipping, of course :) )

There are several modes to arguing around here. The most productive is to assume that a large majority (90% to 95%) of the readers are well educated, friendly folk (male and female) who are actually interested in Spiritual Growth. If one does not assume that, one will show it in their writing and those 90%-65% will notice it also. I've been studying eschatology for 56 years as a Christian. I might know a thing or two about the subject.

But nevertheless, thank you for your kind words about me. Are you the Rotor Rooter man? :)
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
I give you the benfit of the doubt since you are new here but I am very capable of defending my position. You have yet to demonstate anything. Care to actually start defending yours? Would you like to start with Rev 1:3 or Isaiah 65-66 or perhaps Eze. 37. You pick, or you can remain in the stands and just throw eggs.

This reply practically proves his point. :laugh:
 

Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
ReformedBaptist said:
This reply practically proves his point. :laugh:

Not sure what it proves, but you started the thread and have yet to offer any substance. Why start a thread like this if you are then unwilling to engage in it? Ed, though I disagree with him on this topic, will at least use scripture to support his beliefs and defend his positions. I get frustrated at those who start or jump into a thread and offer nothing in defense of their view. Your reply demonstrates my point.:laugh:
 

Amy.G

New Member
I did some reading on Preterism and what I found was that this belief states that all prophecies (or most) have already been fulfilled. The rapture has taken place, the judgment has taken place and Satan has been crushed. I obviously missed the judgment because I can't recall facing Christ. I think that is something I would probably remember. :)

So my question is, what is next? If everything has been fulfilled, what is this age that we're living in now? :confused:


Maybe to my own embarrassment, I hadn't heard of this belief until recently. It never occurred to me that Jesus had already returned.
 
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