Full Preterism: True or False

[DHK]

Please look more carefully at what you have written. You qualified (pared down, actually) the verse to refer only to Christ's deity. But it refers to more than that.

I ask again: Can perfection be perfected? Christ was always perfect from eternity past, just as the Father and Spirit were and are. For the second person of the Triunity to take on flesh and blood - and keep it throughout the "other half" of eternity (from ascension on through eternity future) would definitely be a change of a profound degree.

First he became a man. He was fully man, but in the body that he was in was a body such as we have, and therefore subject to hunger, thirst, suffering, and even temptation. "He was tempted in all things such as we are." Therefore the body that he had while on earth, was not "perfect" in the sense that it is now "perfect."
Paul says: "We wait for the redemption of our bodies." Christ's body was "perfected" at the time of the resurrection, when the earthly body that he had was glorified. In the garden Mary thought he was the gardener. He looked similar but not exactly the same. The two on the road to Emmaus did not recognize him all that way until he broke bread with them. His body was different, but similar. It still bears the marks of the nail prints in his hands, feet, and the scar in his side, as he invited Thomas to come and look. It is not the same. It can pass through locked doors. It go from one place to another instantly. It defies gravity. We will have a body like his. He sat down with the disciples in this resurrected body and ate fish with them. It is not the same; it is different, but it has similar functions.

Man cannot comprehend what God has in store for him.

Such a change goes against what we are told of Christ and God in Scripture. It is also contrary to this verse.

Why would it?
"I am the Lord; I change not." That refers to God's character; his nature. It does not refer to the second person of the trinity taking on a human form.
God is consistent in his behavior with mankind--as he was with Adam and Eve throughout all ages with all people. He changes not.

BTW, I really want to write more on this thread, but am constrained by time. Luckily I have good access to this site again. But I have classes every day right up until the time we leave Jilin. And then we will be finally be able to see other parts of China before we fly out from Hong Kong on the 14th. All this to explain my probably sporadic writing in the next few weeks.

I look forward to it. Safe travels.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please look more carefully at what you have written. You qualified (pared down, actually) the verse to refer only to Christ's deity. But it refers to more than that.

I ask again: Can perfection be perfected? Christ was always perfect from eternity past, just as the Father and Spirit were and are. For the second person of the Triunity to take on flesh and blood - and keep it throughout the "other half" of eternity (from ascension on through eternity future) would definitely be a change of a profound degree.

Such a change goes against what we are told of Christ and God in Scripture. It is also contrary to this verse.

BTW, I really want to write more on this thread, but am constrained by time. Luckily I have good access to this site again. But I have classes every day right up until the time we leave Jilin. And then we will be finally be able to see other parts of China before we fly out from Hong Kong on the 14th. All this to explain my probably sporadic writing in the next few weeks.

And, Percho, I am puzzled by your comments about what I should teach my students. I teach them oral English, not theology. (At least not in classroom settings).

When the second person of the godhead chose to become human and die for sinners, he chose to FOREVER be in the body that the Ftaher made for him, as he will FOREVER be the God/Man mediator between father ans saints, for IF he is NOT fully Human, he could not sympathise/support us before the father!

Any why would staying in His glorified physical body dilute His deity? was he any less perfect/divine while walking around here on the earth ?

 

[asterisktom]

When the second person of the godhead chose to become human and die for sinners, he chose to FOREVER be in the body that the Ftaher made for him, as he will FOREVER be the God/Man mediator between father ans saints, for IF he is NOT fully Human, he could not sympathise/support us before the father!

Any why would staying in His glorified physical body dilute His deity? was he any less perfect/divine while walking around here on the earth ?

Who is talking about diluting His deity? You put words in my mouth, and then fault me for them.

His Incarnation was for a time and a purpose. That purpose was fulfilled long ago.

Christ needs to be like us now to sympathize with us? Who told you that? Did He forget something after His ascension? What about the Father and the Spirit, both clearly sympathetic, though never having been in the flesh.

Don't draw your theology from your eschatology.

 

[asterisktom]

I look forward to it. Safe travels.

Thanks. As to the rest, hopefully I will add more to your post later this morning. There are good comments here that require a little more time then I have now. I need to also look for this topic in the archives. It seems I had written on this very subject over a year ago.

 

[Yeshua1]

Who is talking about diluting His deity? You put words in my mouth, and then fault me for them.

His Incarnation was for a time and a purpose. That purpose was fulfilled long ago.

Christ needs to be like us now to sympathize with us? Who told you that? Did He forget something after His ascension? What about the Father and the Spirit, both clearly sympathetic, though never having been in the flesh.

Don't draw your theology from your eschatology.

jesus ALONE "knows" how we really actually feel in an objective sense, for by partaking and becoming flesh, He took on our weaknesses, and tempted tried etc the Ftaher/Spirit know it in a logically way, NOT experiencing way!

That was unique to jesus!

That is why he was the One of the Trinity appointed to be Messiah/High priest, for he ALONE could actually experience death and know how affirmities and weaknesses!

that he incarnated and forever is God/man is something that glorified God more, not less!

 

[percho]

Please look more carefully at what you have written. You qualified (pared down, actually) the verse to refer only to Christ's deity. But it refers to more than that.

I ask again: Can perfection be perfected? Christ was always perfect from eternity past, just as the Father and Spirit were and are. For the second person of the Triunity to take on flesh and blood - and keep it throughout the "other half" of eternity (from ascension on through eternity future) would definitely be a change of a profound degree.

Such a change goes against what we are told of Christ and God in Scripture. It is also contrary to this verse.

BTW, I really want to write more on this thread, but am constrained by time. Luckily I have good access to this site again. But I have classes every day right up until the time we leave Jilin. And then we will be finally be able to see other parts of China before we fly out from Hong Kong on the 14th. All this to explain my probably sporadic writing in the next few weeks.

And, Percho, I am puzzled by your comments about what I should teach my students. I teach them oral English, not theology. (At least not in classroom settings).

I didn't mean that as a dig to you personally. I do not think they will hear the truth of those scriptures from anyone teaching them. I will give you an example of what I mean by quoting you on another of your post also without a dig at you but to show something I believe to be a truth that others will say I misrepresent. Your post 89

 

[percho]

Who believes in a lesser Jesus, me or you? I believe He is the same now that He was pre-Incarnation, in the same essence He had throughout eternity past. How can that be a lowered, denigrating (let alone, cultic) view of the second person of the Trinity?

Can perfection be perfected?

I quoted this verse to DHK with a comment earlier.

Hebrews 5:10 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yes perfection can be perfected. My comment was eternal salvation were not the two most important words of that statement.

The most important being, "and being made perfect."

How was imperfect about Jesus?

God in Christ self emptied. 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Corruptible flesh. As Jesus himself said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

That means exactly what it says.

The first man Adam the living soul was the figure of him to come. These verses are about Jesus the Christ before and after the resurrection.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The perfect Son of God was made more perfect.

 

[OldRegular]

jesus ALONE "knows" how we really actually feel in an objective sense, for by partaking and becoming flesh, He took on our weaknesses, and tempted tried etc the Ftaher/Spirit know it in a logically way, NOT experiencing way!

That was unique to jesus!

That is why he was the One of the Trinity appointed to be Messiah/High priest, for he ALONE could actually experience death and know how affirmities and weaknesses!

The divine nature of Jesus Christ did not experience death. God cannot die!

But I don't see that this discussion has anything to do with the doctrine of Full Preterism!

Start a thread!

 

[percho]

The divine nature of Jesus Christ did not experience death. God cannot die!

But I don't see that this discussion has anything to do with the doctrine of Full Preterism!

Start a thread!

Does it have anything to do with doctrine of Full Preterism relative to the resurrection whether it be speaking of Jesus or of us? I am not well versed enough in Full Preterism to know.

I believe without the resurrection of Jesus there would be no eternal life (no lively hope) and no life to give as a gift. I also believe that for our mortal soul, the soul that sins it shall die, to be clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life, requires resurrection and or change at the appearing of Christ and his kingdom. 2 Cor 5:4, 2 Tim. 4:1 and I do not believe that took place in 70AD for anyone living at that time and surely not for me.

Therefore would this fall in the context of Full Preterism?

 

[DHK]

I quoted this verse to DHK with a comment earlier.

Hebrews 5:10 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 5:8-10
(8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
(9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(10) Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Here is what A.T. Robertson says about "perfect"

Having been made perfect (teleiōtheis). First aorist passive participle of teleioō, the completion of the process of training mentioned by this same verb in Heb_2:10 “by means of sufferings” (dia pathēmatōn) as stated again here in Heb_5:8.

And Gill:

And being made perfect,… In his obedience, through sufferings; having completed his obedience, gone through his sufferings, and finished his sacrifice, and being perfectly glorified in heaven:

The way that the Geneva Bible reads:


Heb 5:9 And being consecrate, was made the authour of eternall saluation vnto all them that obey him:
--The Greek word is teleios is most often translated "complete," and means come to a maturity or complete end, as well as perfect. The text says that he "learned" obedience, not was automatically perfect in it.

Yes perfection can be perfected. My comment was eternal salvation were not the two most important words of that statement.


The most important being, "and being made perfect."

How was imperfect about Jesus?

Jesus had an imperfect body. He took on human flesh. He was able to bleed, suffer, hunger, thirst, etc. It was human just like ours. He had to learn obedience. His body was not "perfected" until the resurrection when he received a glorified body.
Our bodies will not be "perfected" until the resurrection occurs and we receive our new and glorified bodies.
Paul says "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." What do you think that means?

God in Christ self emptied. 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Christ never emptied himself of God. That becomes a denial of his deity.

Corruptible flesh. As Jesus himself said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."

This refers to the necessity of the new birth. We are all born of the flesh. That is how we came into the world. He is contrasting a physical birth to a spiritual birth.

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

That means exactly what it says.

The first man Adam the living soul was the figure of him to come. These verses are about Jesus the Christ before and after the resurrection.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The perfect Son of God was made more perfect.

Garbage!
First, the word "firstborn" means pre-eminent.
Barnes says this:

The first-born from the dead - At the head of those who rise from their graves. This does not mean literally that he was the first who rose from the dead for he himself raised up Lazarus and others, and the bodies of saints arose at his crucifixion; but it means that he had the pre-eminence among them all; he was the most illustrious of those who will be raised from the dead, and is the head over them all. Especially, he had this pre-eminence in the resurrection in this respect, that he was the first who rose from death to immortality. Others who were raised undoubtedly died again. Christ rose to die no more; see the notes at 1Co_15:20.

Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today and forever.
I am the Lord. I change not.
Christ is God. God took on flesh. God cannot die. But his flesh saw corruption; not his soul, but rather his flesh. It saw corruption in the sense that he died. That in itself is corruption. He was dead for three days and three nights. No amount of embalming and spices can totally halt the corrupting process of the human body. By the time he died he had lost enough of his flesh and blood that the Bible says he was so disfugured he was unrecognizable. That in itself is corruption.

His nature did not change. He was still God; the immutable, unchangeable deity that never changes. That corrupted body took on incorruption. That mortal body took on immortality. He now has an immortal and glorified body.

 

[OldRegular]

Does it have anything to do with doctrine of Full Preterism relative to the resurrection whether it be speaking of Jesus or of us? I am not well versed enough in Full Preterism to know.

I believe without the resurrection of Jesus there would be no eternal life (no lively hope) and no life to give as a gift. I also believe that for our mortal soul, the soul that sins it shall die, to be clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life, requires resurrection and or change at the appearing of Christ and his kingdom. 2 Cor 5:4, 2 Tim. 4:1 and I do not believe that took place in 70AD for anyone living at that time and surely not for me.

Therefore would this fall in the context of Full Preterism?

The resurrection of the body has much to do with Full Preterism. You correctly state that without the resurrection of Jesus Christ we would all be left in our sins. However, the post by yeshua to which I responded has nothing to do with Full Preterism.

 

[percho]

Heb 5:8-10
(8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
(9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(10) Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Here is what A.T. Robertson says about "perfect"

And Gill:

The way that the Geneva Bible reads:


Heb 5:9 And being consecrate, was made the authour of eternall saluation vnto all them that obey him:
--The Greek word is teleios is most often translated "complete," and means come to a maturity or complete end, as well as perfect. The text says that he "learned" obedience, not was automatically perfect in it.

Jesus had an imperfect body. He took on human flesh. He was able to bleed, suffer, hunger, thirst, etc. It was human just like ours. He had to learn obedience. His body was not "perfected" until the resurrection when he received a glorified body.
Our bodies will not be "perfected" until the resurrection occurs and we receive our new and glorified bodies.
Paul says "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." What do you think that means?

Christ never emptied himself of God. That becomes a denial of his deity.

This refers to the necessity of the new birth. We are all born of the flesh. That is how we came into the world. He is contrasting a physical birth to a spiritual birth.

Garbage!
First, the word "firstborn" means pre-eminent.
Barnes says this:

Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today and forever.
I am the Lord. I change not.
Christ is God. God took on flesh. God cannot die. But his flesh saw corruption; not his soul, but rather his flesh. It saw corruption in the sense that he died. That in itself is corruption. He was dead for three days and three nights. No amount of embalming and spices can totally halt the corrupting process of the human body. By the time he died he had lost enough of his flesh and blood that the Bible says he was so disfugured he was unrecognizable. That in itself is corruption.

His nature did not change. He was still God; the immutable, unchangeable deity that never changes. That corrupted body took on incorruption. That mortal body took on immortality. He now has an immortal and glorified body.

This also may or may not have anything to do with Full Preterism.

DHK

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

Is that really what happened, did God the Father raise Jesus Christ from the dead?

Did he by doing so give him glory? 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;

Did he also resurrect him with power? Romans 1:4 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Is glory and power somehow related?

How did Jesus the seed of Abraham, he who spring out of the tribe of Juda, he who was conceived in the virgin Mary of Spirit the God Holy come about being high priest of the order of Melchisedec? Did he take this honor and glory upon himself?

Hebrews 5:4,5,6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The day he said thou art my Son this day I have begotten thee. The day he raised him from the dead he glorified his as high priest. Resurrected with power. What power? BTW Acts 13:30,33 But God raised him from the dead: God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, (high priest) not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 7:14-17

When was he made high priest after the order of Melchisedec?

Is this a true statement? John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Is that power of an endless life? When did he God the Father give it to the Son?

I understand what you believe and I also understand what I read in the very Word of the Living God.

This isn't just for DHK but for any who would care to discuss the Word of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

jesus in the Incarnation took on sinless humanity, and he is always the God/Man, for the early church had to deal with heretics who denied that he was fully God, that he was adopted somehow into Godhead, and those who taught was not really human, just appeared for awhile as such, and went back to heaven just God again!

need to see him as being BOTH God/Man, and forever in His glorified physical form!

 

[percho]

jesus in the Incarnation took on sinless humanity, and he is always the God/Man, for the early church had to deal with heretics who denied that he was fully God, that he was adopted somehow into Godhead, and those who taught was not really human, just appeared for awhile as such, and went back to heaven just God again!

need to see him as being BOTH God/Man, and forever in His glorified physical form!

Would it be contrary to the word of God to see Jesus as the Son of the living God? Emmanuel

 

[OldRegular]

jesus in the Incarnation took on sinless humanity, and he is always the God/Man, for the early church had to deal with heretics who denied that he was fully God, that he was adopted somehow into Godhead, and those who taught was not really human, just appeared for awhile as such, and went back to heaven just God again!

need to see him as being BOTH God/Man, and forever in His glorified physical form!

THat has absolutely nothing to do with Full Preterism. Start a thread if you want to debate whether the hypostatic union is eternal or not.

 

[DHK]

This also may or may not have anything to do with Full Preterism.

DHK

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

Is that really what happened, did God the Father raise Jesus Christ from the dead?

I don't know what your purpose is here. I could answer no, and be perfectly right in saying so. One cannot dissect the trinity into three different parts and ignore each person. The Father raised the son.
However, Christ himself said: "I lay my life down; I take it up again." By his own power he was raised. He was also raised by the power of the Holy Spirit, as it says in other Scriptures. You cannot simply emphasize one person of the triune Godhead. I don't understand your over-emphasis in doing so.

Did he by doing so give him glory? 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;

Did he also resurrect him with power? Romans 1:4 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Is glory and power somehow related?

"All power in heaven and in earth is given unto me." The word for power is authority. He receives glory because he is God. We are not to give glory to another. If we do we commit idolatry. That is what the RCC do with Mary. They give her the glory that belongs only to God/Christ. They rob him of the glory due only to him. Only "deity" deserves honor and glory. See Rev.4:11.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--Here glory and honor are given him in relation to his status as Creator.

How did Jesus the seed of Abraham, he who spring out of the tribe of Juda, he who was conceived in the virgin Mary of Spirit the God Holy come about being high priest of the order of Melchisedec? Did he take this honor and glory upon himself?

He could have; he chose not to. Remember he is God. Do not denigrate his deity.

Hebrews 5:4,5,6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

There is a comparison of Christ to the Aaronic priesthood which is appointed by God. Christ is greater than that. He humbled himself and became man, laying aside for a short period of time and doing it voluntarily, some of his divine attributes. He still had access to them. His miracles demonstrated that. The Father/Son relationship was in rank. They are co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent, part of the same Godhead.

The day he said thou art my Son this day I have begotten thee. The day he raised him from the dead he glorified his as high priest. Resurrected with power. What power? BTW Acts 13:30,33 But God raised him from the dead: God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

He raised himself up by his own power.
He was raised by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The above passage gives a description of how Christ became a man in fulfillment of prophecy that he might die for our sins. God has not raised us up yet. The resurrection has not yet taken place. Only spiritually do we sit in heavenly places according to Eph.1. That is not a resurrection. It is a spiritual benefit.

For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, (high priest) not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 7:14-17

And your point?

When was he made high priest after the order of Melchisedec?

Read Hebrews chapters four and five. He does the work of our Great High Priest right now, interceding on our behalf. We therefore may come boldly before the throne of grace at any time; something that the OT believers could not do.
What has this got to do with anything, especially preterism?

Is this a true statement? John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The son always had life in himself. You misunderstand the verse. Are you suggesting that God could die and cease to exist? He was speaking as a man. He was also speaking to the Jews claiming deity. The Jews denied that he was God. He was asserting his deity to them.

Is that power of an endless life? When did he God the Father give it to the Son?

I understand what you believe and I also understand what I read in the very Word of the Living God.

This isn't just for DHK but for any who would care to discuss the Word of God.

It appears you don't understand the Word. You rob Christ of his deity. You rob Christ of his "eternality." You suggest that he is a created being. When did God give Christ an endless life? That is an absurd question. Christ is God. He always had an endless life. He is the Alpha and Omega; the Beginning and the End; the Creator of all things. He never had a beginning and will never have an end. He is not a created being as you have implied here.