Full Preterism

[Godrulesmyworld]

I'll tell you what I believe, Mark. I believe that as a believer, I will appear before the judgment seat of Christ at His second coming, to receive for the things done in the flesh. The preterist veiw totally eliminates the fear of judgment for the believer because the judgment happened in AD 70. As those in the 'free grace' camp have recoiled from the accountability teaching that warnings in the bible are directed at believers, they are starting to embrace this damnable heresy as the alternative.

So then, as you agree that it's a damnable heresy, do you think I'm wrong for saying what I've said to my friend? I did not address it in anger with him or bite at him in any way. I just warned him of where his beliefs will lead him.

Married Mark

 

[James_Newman]

No, I think your right. We will be held accountable for what we believe, and especially what we teach and how it affects our brothers and sisters.

Matthew 5:19-20
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[PrimePower7]

Ok, I've looked at this

I don't see in the context of 2 Timothy any mention of "damnable heresy"

 

[Godrulesmyworld]

I don't see in the context of 2 Timothy any mention of "damnable heresy"

I'm sorry. I thought that was already clear. Specifically, the passage of interest starts with 2:16 and goes through 2:18. Paul tells us to avoid vain and profane babblings which will lead to increased ungodliness. He then says that these vain and profane babblings will eat away like a canker (or a cancer). His example is then those who teach that the resurrection is past (Preterism) and finally says that such teaching overthrows the faith of some. Something that overthrows the faith of some is damnable as it leads people to hell.

Married Mark

 

[PrimePower7]

Well, to use a quote like "damnable heresy"

should have some backing from the context. You assume that to "overthrow the faith of some" means to "overthrow their saving faith" which it does not say. Furthermore, earlier in that same chapter, it says "if we believe not, yet He abideth faithful".

Bottom line: You must be Armenian

 

[Godrulesmyworld]

should have some backing from the context. You assume that to "overthrow the faith of some" means to "overthrow their saving faith" which it does not say. Furthermore, earlier in that same chapter, it says "if we believe not, yet He abideth faithful".

Bottom line: You must be Armenian

Bottom line: This teaching is a cancer... which brings death... which includes the overthrowing of the faith of some... which is damnation. Please don't turn this into another Calvi/Arme debate. That's not this thread's purpose.

Married Mark

 

[PrimePower7]

Don't make me the bad guy

If you would keep it from being a soteriological debate, there would be no Calvin/Armenian comments to be given. Again, how do you get "overthrowing the faith of some" to be overthrowing the faith that saves them? Surely, my friend, you do not hold that the only faith one has is saving faith?

 

[Godrulesmyworld]

If you would keep it from being a soteriological debate, there would be no Calvin/Armenian comments to be given. Again, how do you get "overthrowing the faith of some" to be overthrowing the faith that saves them? Surely, my friend, you do not hold that the only faith one has is saving faith?

And surely you do not hold that cancer (which is a presenter of death) is no big thing, right? The passage tells us that these types of teachings (past resurrection being the example) work as a cancer, press towards more ungodliness, and lead people away from the faith. I think it's pretty life or death oriented. The passage then leads on that we are to depart from such iniquity. Then we hear again that some are vessels unto honour, and some unto dishonour. If one does not purge himself of such aweful teachings, he is the opposite of that found in verse 21 and thus, not fit for the Master's use. Sounds rather salvific to me. Finally, we are told to be patient and loving towards those of such wickedness that God might grant them repentance and that they might be delivered from the devil's snare. The devil's snare? Grant them repentance? Not fit for the Master's use? Over throwing the faith of some? Cancer? Leads to more ungodliness? Yes, friend, it is very clearly what it is. I'm not sure why you would wish to deny such a clear presentation of the danger of said doctrine. This is a clear warning from our Lord to be clear on such a wicked malteaching. Thanks for asking me for more detail, but I don't honestly see any true way to pretend this doesn't mean what it clearly directs us to believe.

Married Mark

 

[James_Newman]

If you would keep it from being a soteriological debate, there would be no Calvin/Armenian comments to be given. Again, how do you get "overthrowing the faith of some" to be overthrowing the faith that saves them? Surely, my friend, you do not hold that the only faith one has is saving faith?

I agree, the saving faith of one who believes that Jesus died for their sins is not what is being overthrown. Rather, the faith that allows a believer to overcome sin is what Paul is talking about. What is the danger of not overcoming sin in this life? If it is not the loss of the eternal gift (which I do not believe it is) then it must be what it says it is, the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The problem with preterism is that it not only denies the future judgment of believers, it denies the very kingdom of God for which we are to suffer.

 

[robycop3]

Preterism? In one word...FALSE.

History & Scripture proves it false.

 

[Grasshopper]

I personally want the clarification from other Christians (and I chose the Baptist board because Baptist's, overall, have always seemed fairly sound in their theology) to verify my belief that a person who so dogmatically teaches such heresy as Preterism is truly going to hell in their present state.

So apparently I lost my salvation about 3-4 years ago as I made the transition from dispiville to preterism.

Perhaps the Baptist Board isn’t the place for your question since most here don’t believe you can lose your salvation. Oh wait, perhaps I was never saved. That must be it.

I want this confirmation because I've told that guy that I think it's damnable and if he sticks on his present path and theology he'll find himself not in heaven, but in hell.

So at what point does he lose his salvation?

I've tried to reason with him but he won't hear anything but what he has already decided to believe.

Perhaps he says the same of you.

Other Christians I know acknowledge that the doctrine is incredibly wrong and wicked, but they're all mad at me for saying that, in his present state, he's going to hell.

So perhaps they are now going to Hell as well for not jumping on your witch hunt.

Perhaps you could find us a preterist that agrees with Hymenaeus and Philetus that the resurrection was already past when Paul wrote his letter.

Paul refers to his audience in Corinth as his brethren:

1Co 15:1 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,

Yet they believed that there was no raising of the dead:

1Co 15:12 And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?

Why does Paul call them brethern?

Finally, have you ever known of anyone’s faith being overthrown because of their preterist beliefs? Does your friend now not attend church? Has he stopped praying or reading his bible? Is he now more ungodly?
My faith has grown stronger, not weaker.
Please explain how one’s faith is overturned by a literal interpretation of Matt 16:27-28:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

 

[James_Newman]

I think you are probably saved, GH, just deceived. Teaching false doctrine will get you in trouble at the judgment seat of Christ, but it doesn't erase the blood.

 

[Grasshopper]

I think you are probably saved, GH, just deceived. Teaching false doctrine will get you in trouble at the judgment seat of Christ, but it doesn't erase the blood.

Whew! Thanks, what a relief.
Perhaps you could tell me who will be in trouble on judgment Day, Calvinsit or Non-Calvinist? While your at it, will A-mill, Historic Pre-mill, or Dispie-pre-mill need to worry on Judgment Day?

 

[saturneptune]

James Newman, all discussion of doctrine aside, there is one thing I know for sure. You have no idea about the state of salvation of Grasshopper, only Grasshopper and God know. Playing guessing games with another person's salvation is very reckless.

 

[James_Newman]

Whew! Thanks, what a relief.
Perhaps you could tell me who will be in trouble on judgment Day, Calvinsit or Non-Calvinist? While your at it, will A-mill, Historic Pre-mill, or Dispie-pre-mill need to worry on Judgment Day?

Want to be found pleasing to Christ at the judgment seat? Keep His commandments.

John 15:10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 

[James_Newman]

James Newman, all discussion of doctrine aside, there is one thing I know for sure. You have no idea about the state of salvation of Grasshopper, only Grasshopper and God know. Playing guessing games with another person's salvation is very reckless.

What must I do to be saved?

 

[Grasshopper]

Want to be found pleasing to Christ at the judgment seat? Keep His commandments.

John 15:10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

So where is "eschatological views" found in His commandments?

 

[James_Newman]

So where is "eschatological views" found in His commandments?

Eschatological views in this case are the ones that we were discussing.

2 Timothy 2:16-18
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

What does increase unto more ungodliness mean? Surely it doesn't mean keeping God's commandments, does it? If a teaching is producing rotten fruit, it is a false teaching. Do you think we will not be judged for the things we teach?

Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[saturneptune]

What kind of question is "What must I do to be saved?" Since I do not believe in a works salvation, there is nothing to "DO." God does it, provides the faith, provides the grace, provides the belief, and provides the new heart to live for Him and a desire to spread the Gospel. I cannot relate to a question such as you asked.

 

[James_Newman]

What kind of question is "What must I do to be saved?" Since I do not believe in a works salvation, there is nothing to "DO." God does it, provides the faith, provides the grace, provides the belief, and provides the new heart to live for Him and a desire to spread the Gospel. I cannot relate to a question such as you asked.

Kinda reckless to be telling people to be careful talking about salvation when you can't tell me how to be saved, isn't it?