Fundamental Baptists: At What Point Does a Church Become a Cult?

[Jerome]

If you're in a place where you can never question the leader...isn't that a cult?

Authoritarian leadership plagues all sorts of Baptists.

A similar report to what you've described:

"Historically Baptists have taken the congregational form of government....some present-day Baptists (mostly Reformed Baptists) have departed from both the Bible and their Baptist forefathers....and put the authority of the church in the hands of the eldership, thereby rejecting congregational rule."

"there are a lot of elders in [the Reformed Baptist] movement, and in other movements, who are acting like mini-popes....Here is the problem....if several families come to the pastor with a sincere concern and he either refuses to listen or is not convinced that they are correct, those individuals are not allowed to even talk to another person after they leave his office."

 

[Salty]

...if several families come to the pastor with a sincere concern and he either refuses to listen or is not convinced that they are correct, those individuals are not allowed to even talk to another person after they leave his office."

if that were me, I wonder how long I would still be a member after walking out the pastors door!

 

[rlvaughn]

In my opinion, they either have mocked God or they are very close to doing so.

Rev 19:9 KJV - And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Where has any Baptist Board member mocked God in this thread, in relation to the marriage supper or anything else? The OP mentions having heard "the pastor speak on the pulpit about there being Fried Chicken vs Tacos at the Wedding Supper of the Lord. (He had described a conversation he had with a Mexican, and was adamant that there would be Fried Chicken at the Wedding Supper, not Tacos..." If he really meant that, it is troublesome.

 

[robycop3]

REALITYsays there was neither.

 

[Aaron]

Hello everyone! Glad to be here talking with you guys. This is my first post in the Fundamental Baptist board, so please take my questions with a grain of salt. I'm quite new. But I was hoping you all could help me understand some things better.

So I've been going to a KJVO, Fundamental Baptist Church for about a year now. I like the core values of the church in regards to using the King James Bible, and I love everyone there. I think the Pastor is a good man in terms of not being a wishy-washy, politically correct kind of guy. He speaks his mind and isn't afraid to preach out of the bible. And when he does stick strictly to scripture, he does a great job!

However, recently I've been starting to have questions.

First and foremost, I do believe that the King James bible is completely true, and the inspired word of God. As God is infallible, so is the Holy Word. And as God is infallible, I also understand that men are absolutely fallible and prone to making mistakes, especially in regards to interpretations of the bible. It is very easy to take what is written in scripture and push it to the extreme. Oftentimes there are people in the congregation who can have disagreements with the pastor based on what is written in scripture.

Is it okay to disagree with the pastor? Well...it depends on what it's about. If the pastor is speaking against what is explicitly a sin in the bible, ie. Adultery, fornication, drunkenness, etc. Then I find it foolish to try and contradict the Holy Word of God. When God says that something is wrong, it's wrong. Period.

However, what about topics that aren't explicitly spoken against? For an example, dancing is a topic that the pastor has spoken against. While I completely agree that there are inappropriate forms of dancing that are meant for being lewd and dirty, one can point specifically to scripture that encourages dancing as a form of worship and examples where it is used as such. That's just one example, and this post isn't about dancing so bear with me here. But I've even heard of the pastor speak on the pulpit about there being Fried Chicken vs Tacos at the Wedding Supper of the Lord. (He had described a conversation he had with a Mexican, and was adamant that there would be Fried Chicken at the Wedding Supper, not Tacos. I mean...I like both and I can't find any scripture that supports either or neither.)

It's not that my problem is that the pastor may have different opinions that aren't based in scripture. Again, this post isn't about dancing or fried chicken. But, recently the pastor gave a message that was unsettling to me. He preached about talking about the pastor outside of church. I understand that you shouldn't maliciously slander the pastor, or anybody for that matter, but he went as far as to hint that talking at all about the pastor is wrong. For instance, if you've got kids and your family does something that the preacher speaks against (Let's just use eating tacos as an example) and your kids ask you at home if eating tacos as wrong, that even then you shouldn't "make them doubt the preacher" by saying that the preacher may have gone a bit far on that one. I know for one that if and when I ever have kids and they ask me something like that, I'll point them to the Bible. I believe it's very important to teach kids that no, pastors aren't always right, but that's why you always need to be reading the Bible which is the Truth. You should always follow the Word of God instead of blindly following a man. And while I am a woman, I fully believe that the father is the head of the household, not the preacher. A man should not have his head covered, and the head of the man is Christ.

So what I'm wondering is, at what point in a church do you have to say that things have gone too far? Again, I love that church and I think the pastor is a good guy, but talk like that concerns me. If you're in a place where you can never question the leader, or raise your own kids according to what you believe, isn't that a cult? I'm not entirely sure if my church has gone that far, but talk like that makes me wonder what I should look out for. At what point do I have to say, "Nope. This is a cult and I'm out."? What are the signs and how should I respond?

I hope I didn't bother anyone by asking about this, and I value your time and advice. Thank you in advance for answering my questions and God Bless all of you!

Knowing neither you nor he, nor the truth of your post, I'll just recommend a book with which to begin your search for an answer to the question. The Kingdom of the Cults (Martin/Zacharias).

 

[GaoLu]

...One of the rules (#4) I found unacceptable was members could not have fellowship in their home without notifying the pastor and receiving his approval of the attendees.

Sometimes context matters. If a dragon-tatted 17- year-old wants to invite all the youth group boys and girls to his house for hash-brownie insights into Revelation and a super-hug-a-thon emotional prayer meetings including pairing off regardless of gender for deeper steamy-hugged, holy-kissed and ??? prayer, then the pastor may have a good reason for such a rule. He may not want to explain those details to a new attendee.

I am not making that up. I know of a case where it happened (actually I compiled 3 cases as one for added drama).

 

[th1bill]

Hello everyone! Glad to be here talking with you guys. This is my first post in the Fundamental Baptist board, so please take my questions with a grain of salt. I'm quite new. But I was hoping you all could help me understand some things better.

So I've been going to a KJVO, Fundamental Baptist Church for about a year now. I like the core values of the church in regards to using the King James Bible, and I love everyone there. I think the Pastor is a good man in terms of not being a wishy-washy, politically correct kind of guy. He speaks his mind and isn't afraid to preach out of the bible. And when he does stick strictly to scripture, he does a great job!

However, recently I've been starting to have questions.

First and foremost, I do believe that the King James bible is completely true, and the inspired word of God. As God is infallible, so is the Holy Word. And as God is infallible, I also understand that men are absolutely fallible and prone to making mistakes, especially in regards to interpretations of the bible. It is very easy to take what is written in scripture and push it to the extreme. Oftentimes there are people in the congregation who can have disagreements with the pastor based on what is written in scripture.

Is it okay to disagree with the pastor? Well...it depends on what it's about. If the pastor is speaking against what is explicitly a sin in the bible, ie. Adultery, fornication, drunkenness, etc. Then I find it foolish to try and contradict the Holy Word of God. When God says that something is wrong, it's wrong. Period.

However, what about topics that aren't explicitly spoken against? For an example, dancing is a topic that the pastor has spoken against. While I completely agree that there are inappropriate forms of dancing that are meant for being lewd and dirty, one can point specifically to scripture that encourages dancing as a form of worship and examples where it is used as such. That's just one example, and this post isn't about dancing so bear with me here. But I've even heard of the pastor speak on the pulpit about there being Fried Chicken vs Tacos at the Wedding Supper of the Lord. (He had described a conversation he had with a Mexican, and was adamant that there would be Fried Chicken at the Wedding Supper, not Tacos. I mean...I like both and I can't find any scripture that supports either or neither.)

It's not that my problem is that the pastor may have different opinions that aren't based in scripture. Again, this post isn't about dancing or fried chicken. But, recently the pastor gave a message that was unsettling to me. He preached about talking about the pastor outside of church. I understand that you shouldn't maliciously slander the pastor, or anybody for that matter, but he went as far as to hint that talking at all about the pastor is wrong. For instance, if you've got kids and your family does something that the preacher speaks against (Let's just use eating tacos as an example) and your kids ask you at home if eating tacos as wrong, that even then you shouldn't "make them doubt the preacher" by saying that the preacher may have gone a bit far on that one. I know for one that if and when I ever have kids and they ask me something like that, I'll point them to the Bible. I believe it's very important to teach kids that no, pastors aren't always right, but that's why you always need to be reading the Bible which is the Truth. You should always follow the Word of God instead of blindly following a man. And while I am a woman, I fully believe that the father is the head of the household, not the preacher. A man should not have his head covered, and the head of the man is Christ.

So what I'm wondering is, at what point in a church do you have to say that things have gone too far? Again, I love that church and I think the pastor is a good guy, but talk like that concerns me. If you're in a place where you can never question the leader, or raise your own kids according to what you believe, isn't that a cult? I'm not entirely sure if my church has gone that far, but talk like that makes me wonder what I should look out for. At what point do I have to say, "Nope. This is a cult and I'm out."? What are the signs and how should I respond?

I hope I didn't bother anyone by asking about this, and I value your time and advice. Thank you in advance for answering my questions and God Bless all of you!

It is a very great thing that you, like the Bereans, trust the Holy Scriptures and trust not a fallible man over the Recorded Holy Word of YHWH. I, also, am a Fundamental Baptist Believer that holds the written word of our Elohim as Sacred and True.. Worthy of modeling our very, lives after.

On this, I pray, metaphorical example, as a man that has always been responsible to YHWH for every event that goes on in my castle, I have been known to cause my entire family, right down to my precious granddaughter, told to find someplace else to worship for pointing out, publicly, that our new Pastor was attributing the characteristics to Yashuah ha'Mashiah, a.k.a. Jesus the Christ.

We left, that assembly foundered for over two years and the ¿pastor? had his license to preach revoked when his wife found him and two married female members naked in his office.. ¿exercising?

If the Pastor there refuses to consider your cause without any good, Biblical reason, he is raising up a cult and you should leave.

 

[Van]

Hello everyone! Glad to be here talking with you guys. This is my first post in the Fundamental Baptist board, so please take my questions with a grain of salt. I'm quite new. But I was hoping you all could help me understand some things better.

So I've been going to a KJVO, Fundamental Baptist Church for about a year now. I like the core values of the church in regards to using the King James Bible, and I love everyone there. I think the Pastor is a good man in terms of not being a wishy-washy, politically correct kind of guy. He speaks his mind and isn't afraid to preach out of the bible. And when he does stick strictly to scripture, he does a great job!

However, recently I've been starting to have questions.

First and foremost, I do believe that the King James bible is completely true, and the inspired word of God. As God is infallible, so is the Holy Word. And as God is infallible, I also understand that men are absolutely fallible and prone to making mistakes, especially in regards to interpretations of the bible. It is very easy to take what is written in scripture and push it to the extreme. Oftentimes there are people in the congregation who can have disagreements with the pastor based on what is written in scripture.

Is it okay to disagree with the pastor? Well...it depends on what it's about. If the pastor is speaking against what is explicitly a sin in the bible, ie. Adultery, fornication, drunkenness, etc. Then I find it foolish to try and contradict the Holy Word of God. When God says that something is wrong, it's wrong. Period.

However, what about topics that aren't explicitly spoken against? For an example, dancing is a topic that the pastor has spoken against. While I completely agree that there are inappropriate forms of dancing that are meant for being lewd and dirty, one can point specifically to scripture that encourages dancing as a form of worship and examples where it is used as such. That's just one example, and this post isn't about dancing so bear with me here. But I've even heard of the pastor speak on the pulpit about there being Fried Chicken vs Tacos at the Wedding Supper of the Lord. (He had described a conversation he had with a Mexican, and was adamant that there would be Fried Chicken at the Wedding Supper, not Tacos. I mean...I like both and I can't find any scripture that supports either or neither.)

It's not that my problem is that the pastor may have different opinions that aren't based in scripture. Again, this post isn't about dancing or fried chicken. But, recently the pastor gave a message that was unsettling to me. He preached about talking about the pastor outside of church. I understand that you shouldn't maliciously slander the pastor, or anybody for that matter, but he went as far as to hint that talking at all about the pastor is wrong. For instance, if you've got kids and your family does something that the preacher speaks against (Let's just use eating tacos as an example) and your kids ask you at home if eating tacos as wrong, that even then you shouldn't "make them doubt the preacher" by saying that the preacher may have gone a bit far on that one. I know for one that if and when I ever have kids and they ask me something like that, I'll point them to the Bible. I believe it's very important to teach kids that no, pastors aren't always right, but that's why you always need to be reading the Bible which is the Truth. You should always follow the Word of God instead of blindly following a man. And while I am a woman, I fully believe that the father is the head of the household, not the preacher. A man should not have his head covered, and the head of the man is Christ.

So what I'm wondering is, at what point in a church do you have to say that things have gone too far? Again, I love that church and I think the pastor is a good guy, but talk like that concerns me. If you're in a place where you can never question the leader, or raise your own kids according to what you believe, isn't that a cult? I'm not entirely sure if my church has gone that far, but talk like that makes me wonder what I should look out for. At what point do I have to say, "Nope. This is a cult and I'm out."? What are the signs and how should I respond?

I hope I didn't bother anyone by asking about this, and I value your time and advice. Thank you in advance for answering my questions and God Bless all of you!

I have not read the intervening three pages of post. And I have no idea what your name conveys.

My first question is who does your Pastor report to? A group of Elders or Deacons, or directly to the Congregation? Or is he only accountable to God?

Yes your church sounds cultist, with challenging the Pastor being disallowed.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Cults are about control. They seek to control what their members believe, and don't accept question. They may seek to control actions as well, and are guilty of abuse of authority. I don't think the KJV only IFB I grew up in was a cult, but I do think they were too legalistic.

 

[rlvaughn]

I have not read the intervening three pages of post. And I have no idea what your name conveys.

It would translate as something like "I don't want the cheese" or "I don't like the cheese" unless it has some other particular meaning to the OP.

 

[Van]

Thanks R.L Vaughn,

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

It would translate as something like "I don't want the cheese" or "I don't like the cheese" unless it has some other particular meaning to the OP.

It has no particular meaning, honestly I just couldn't think of a better username. I took 3 years of Spanish back in high school and it's what first popped into mind. Personally, I actually like cheese.

 

[robycop3]

It has no particular meaning, honestly I just couldn't think of a better username. I took 3 years of Spanish back in high school and it's what first popped into mind. Personally, I actually like cheese.

And also tacos ?

 

[Covenanter]

Denial of the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.
Denial of the deity of Christ and/or the incarnation.
Denial of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Denial of the Visible Bodily return of Jesus Christ.

Denial of, or adding to -
Salvation by repentance & faith in the LORD Jesus Christ;
The sole authority of the Holy Scriptures;
Godly living of believers;

Many preachers call for decisions, or acceptance of a salvation prayer formula, with the result that the unrepentant are accepted as Christians. This extents to sexual behaviour with the misunderstanding that as Jesus graciously calls & accepts sinners, they can continue in sin that grace may abound.

The OP indicates unwarranted & unquestionable pastoral authority. Faithful pastors will be willing to hear Biblical challenges to their teaching.

A further widespread cult activity & doctrine is that the state of Israel is the fulfilment of prophecy, and has God's authority for its treatment of the Palestinians. They rely on Old Covenant prophecy yet ignore its teaching. The New Covenant Scriptures speak of salvation for the people of Israel through the Gospel, but not a return to the land.
e.g.
Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity,
and work evil upon their beds!
when the morning is light, they practise it,
because it is in the power of their hand.
2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence;
and houses, and take them away:
so they oppress a man and his house,
even a man and his heritage.

6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good;
and what doth the Lord require of thee,
but to do justly, and to love mercy,
and to walk humbly with thy God?

Ezekiel 37:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord God.

 

[HankD]

Denial of, or adding to -
Salvation by repentance & faith in the LORD Jesus Christ;
The sole authority of the Holy Scriptures;
Godly living of believers;

Many preachers call for decisions, or acceptance of a salvation prayer formula, with the result that the unrepentant are accepted as Christians. This extents to sexual behaviour with the misunderstanding that as Jesus graciously calls & accepts sinners, they can continue in sin that grace may abound.

The OP indicates unwarranted & unquestionable pastoral authority. Faithful pastors will be willing to hear Biblical challenges to their teaching.

A further widespread cult activity & doctrine is that the state of Israel is the fulfilment of prophecy, and has God's authority for its treatment of the Palestinians. They rely on Old Covenant prophecy yet ignore its teaching. The New Covenant Scriptures speak of salvation for the people of Israel through the Gospel, but not a return to the land.
e.g.
Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity,
and work evil upon their beds!
when the morning is light, they practise it,
because it is in the power of their hand.
2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence;
and houses, and take them away:
so they oppress a man and his house,
even a man and his heritage.

6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good;
and what doth the Lord require of thee,
but to do justly, and to love mercy,
and to walk humbly with thy God?

Ezekiel 37:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord God.

Indeed. If there is persistent sin in the life of a true believer then God will deal with it usually in a harsh manner:

Revelation 2:
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

What is repentance - very simply the word repentance (metanoia) in verb form means to change one's mind.

Change one's mind and seek the LORD and His righteousness rather than sin and self (and don't get discouraged).

 

[robycop3]

Denial of, or adding to -
Salvation by repentance & faith in the LORD Jesus Christ;
The sole authority of the Holy Scriptures;
Godly living of believers;

Many preachers call for decisions, or acceptance of a salvation prayer formula, with the result that the unrepentant are accepted as Christians. This extents to sexual behaviour with the misunderstanding that as Jesus graciously calls & accepts sinners, they can continue in sin that grace may abound.

The OP indicates unwarranted & unquestionable pastoral authority. Faithful pastors will be willing to hear Biblical challenges to their teaching.

A further widespread cult activity & doctrine is that the state of Israel is the fulfilment of prophecy, and has God's authority for its treatment of the Palestinians. They rely on Old Covenant prophecy yet ignore its teaching. The New Covenant Scriptures speak of salvation for the people of Israel through the Gospel, but not a return to the land.
e.g.
Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity,
and work evil upon their beds!
when the morning is light, they practise it,
because it is in the power of their hand.
2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence;
and houses, and take them away:
so they oppress a man and his house,
even a man and his heritage.

6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good;
and what doth the Lord require of thee,
but to do justly, and to love mercy,
and to walk humbly with thy God?

Ezekiel 37:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord God.

Sorry, but I must disagree with your opinion of Judah/Israel.

God told Ezekiel in Ezekiel 34 - 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.

And this is coming to pass right in front of us: Isaiah 19:
16 In that day Egypt will be like women, and will be afraid and fear because of the waving of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which He waves over it. 17 And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts which He has determined against it.
Israel, the land of Judah, has kicked Egypt's tail thrice since 1948, & the Egyptians don't want another kicking. Every time a Jew rattles his Uzi, the Egyptians quiver in their fezzes, while not admitting it. The 80 million Egyptians are AFRAID of the 6 million Israelis, & the world knows it!
The Jews were punished for murdering Jesus from 136-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land til 1945 when the nazis fell. And GOD has promised to restore both Judah & Israel despite themselves.
As for the Palestinians, don't forget that "Palestinian" is Latin for "Philistine". Somewhere in their ancestry are the Philistines. It was the Romans who gave those people that name when they allowed them to occupy the Jews' land. The Jews & Pals have an uneasy, tenuous relationship, as the ancient Israelis & Philistines had, often fighting each other.

In conclusion, Judah(modern Israel) has fulfilled some prophecy, & will fulfill yet more in time.

 

[Covenanter]

Sorry, but I must disagree with your opinion of Judah/Israel.

God told Ezekiel in Ezekiel 34 - 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.

And this is coming to pass right in front of us: Isaiah 19:
16 In that day Egypt will be like women, and will be afraid and fear because of the waving of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which He waves over it. 17 And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts which He has determined against it.
Israel, the land of Judah, has kicked Egypt's tail thrice since 1948, & the Egyptians don't want another kicking. Every time a Jew rattles his Uzi, the Egyptians quiver in their fezzes, while not admitting it. The 80 million Egyptians are AFRAID of the 6 million Israelis, & the world knows it!
The Jews were punished for murdering Jesus from 136-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land til 1945 when the nazis fell. And GOD has promised to restore both Judah & Israel despite themselves.
As for the Palestinians, don't forget that "Palestinian" is Latin for "Philistine". Somewhere in their ancestry are the Philistines. It was the Romans who gave those people that name when they allowed them to occupy the Jews' land. The Jews & Pals have an uneasy, tenuous relationship, as the ancient Israelis & Philistines had, often fighting each other.

In conclusion, Judah(modern Israel) has fulfilled some prophecy, & will fulfill yet more in time.

The trouble is they are NOT complying with Ezekiel's prophecy, & they ARE behaving in the way condemned by Micah.

Ezekiel was prophesying to the exiles in Babylon, who considered their situation hopeless -
37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

They were restored in the troubled times as recorded by Ezra & Nehemiah, & the prophets Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi. And at Pentecost God poured out his Holy Spirit on them and many thousands believed in their Messiah & formed the church. The last manifestations of the Old Covenant ended with the destruction. I don't consider they the hatred against Jews by Romans, Catholics & Protestants to be continuing wrath of God against them. The generation that condemned their Messiah & refused the Gospel perished. They are people who, like people of all nations, are called to salvation by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Any continuing animosity between Jews & Palestians/Philistines/Samaritans cannot be justified by the New Covenant Scriptures. "Love your enemies" - make them your friends.

 

[robycop3]

The Jews were ruled by others from the Babylonian conquest til they had their own sovereign nation again in May, 1948, so they certainly weren't restored at all til then, & even now, there are only some 6 million Jews outta some 13 million living in Israel. And the rest of the Israelis haven't been restored since the Assyrian conquest. But GOD said He WILL restore them, despite themselves. And he said He would cause the Jews to see Jesus IS Messiah, & that most of them have been wrong about that since Jesus was here as a man. Now, exactly HOW God will accomplish it, I dunno, but He WILL, cuz He said so.

Now, the rest of the Israelis are "out there", somewhere. And they're likely quite-numerous, as there are some 13 million Jews, & they were not the largest tribe of old Israel. The largest were Ephraim & Manasseh, collectively, the tribe of Joseph. And thru jacob, God said that Joseph's descendants would be very rich & very powerful, controlling the gates of their enemies, etc.

Now, where do you think they are today? Hint: Check to see what nations are Israel's biggest supporters today.

 

[Aaron]

But GOD said He WILL restore them, despite themselves. And he said He would cause the Jews to see Jesus IS Messiah, & that most of them have been wrong about that since Jesus was here as a man. Now, exactly HOW God will accomplish it, I dunno, but He WILL, cuz He said so.

LOL. Roby has become a Calvinist.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Sometimes context matters. If a dragon-tatted 17- year-old wants to invite all the youth group boys and girls to his house for hash-brownie insights into Revelation and a super-hug-a-thon emotional prayer meetings including pairing off regardless of gender for deeper steamy-hugged, holy-kissed and ??? prayer, then the pastor may have a good reason for such a rule. He may not want to explain those details to a new attendee.

I am not making that up. I know of a case where it happened (actually I compiled 3 cases as one for added drama).

Wow!! With debauchery at this level in a presumably professing home, I suspect the pastors position would be of little influence. Apparently, there has been little or no mature Christian modeling put into these teens lives. How sad.

While my father never witnessed to me verbally about Christ, he demonstrated by his lifestyle how I should live and what his expectations of my were.