You have suddenly become belligerant and I don't know why. I thought we were having a good, reasoned discussion.
(1) If you are belligerant because I am a fundamentalist and you just don't like us, I don't apologize.
(2) If you are belligerant because I think you ought to back up your position from the Bible, I do not apologize.
(3) If I have somehow offended you without knowing it, please tell me and I'll apologize.
trustitl said:
John of Japan
I know you are right that some are kept away from church by high standards of dress and conduct. However, others are drawn to our churches by the same thing. Many people are tired of the "same old same old," the churches that look just like the world. That is why the IFB movement has grown until today there are about 10,000 churches of us around the USA, and hundreds, maybe thousands more around the world.
And this is a good thing? You question if my position is not biblically based?
You don't think that it is a good thing for people to go to fundamental churches? Personally, I'm glad if a person goes to
any Bible-believing church! In fact, there are many people who should not go to fundamental churches and I have no problem with that. Christ said He had other sheep in other folds and I am content with that.
John of Japan
Are you aware that the famous Willow Creek Church recently admitted that their seeker-sensitive approach up till now has produced shallow Christians? They realize they need to concentrate more on the individual's walk with God.
trustit: And that would be suits, ties, and other fundamentalist approved modes of conduct I assume. I am in no way defending Willow Creeks marketing devices, but to base your success on being better than them is shallow.
You misunderstand me. You are reading more into this than I meant. In fact, you forget that I have been saying there are many kinds, many groups of fundamentalists.
Personally I hate ties, and no one in my church wears ties but me. (I tell them it is my pastor's uniform, and that goes over well in Japan.) In fact, because of the Japanese culture (very sensitive people) I never mention how to dress in my messages. And in America, more and more young fundamentalists are more relaxed in these matters.
I mentioned Willow Creek just in passing, and was actually praising them. I didn't really mean anything deep by it. I thought you would interact nicely with it and we could discuss that aspect of Christianity--walking with God. I thought I was having a friendly conversation with you, but I guess not.
Paul was wise enough to not let his name be used as a label. His doctrine was sound but he didn't want the focus away from Christ.
I Cor 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided?
There is no one named "Fundamentalist." It describes a position, not a person. Therefore I fail to see the connection with your verses here. I am not a "Rice-ist" or "Hyles-ist" or "Machen-ist" fundamentalist, just a fundamentalist. I repeat that Paul was willing to use the term Pharisee (not a person's name) to represent what he believed.
What exactly does the world dress like anyway? I have a lot of friends who used to be Amish but were born again and made to leave. One actually got kicked out of his own house. They had this same mentality in the Amish. The world dresses like... The world listens to... The world worships ...
This is all very carnal reasoning.
To me, "worldly dress" is immodest dress. I don't care if someone wears whatever the current fashion is. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. If a man or woman comes to my church dressed immodestly, though, we'll deal with it in private. If that is carnal reasoning so be it. I believe it is Biblical to dress modestly. Whatever you believe bothers me not at all, but why should what I believe be carnal? Why the insult all of a sudden? Am I not free to have the standards I want without being called "carnal?"
The Bible says, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Rom. 12:2). I'll continue to try to obey this in my way. You do what you want.
Is the IFB growing as fast as the Muslims?
Well, that's a nasty comparison. Are your true feelings coming out about fundamentalists? It appears that to you we are immature, carnal, and similar to the Muslims. That's sad. I haven't attacked you. All I've asked is that you show from the Scriptures your position that labels are wrong.
Jesus said by their fruit you will know them. He was not referring to quantity.
You are right, He wasn't. If fact, He wasn't even referring to Christians or His disciples. He was referring to false teachers (Matt. 7:16-20). So is that what fundamentalists are to you, false teachers? I'm willing to consider you a brother in Christ. I hope the reverse is true.
Back in the early '80's I was in Japanese language school with a couple of lady missionaries. They said their group was based strictly on the Bible, so they didn't have a name. It is sometimes called the "Nameless Movement," "two by two," the "Nameless Church," etc. It has many wrong teachings and many call it a cult.
Now, don't get hot. I'm not accusing you of belonging to that group or of being a cultist. What I do want to say here is that your teaching to avoid all labels does not make one a good Christian. It is what is inside that counts, whether a believer is walking with God or not, not what they call themselves. I've known many godly, wonderful fundamentalists--and many godly, wonderful non-fundamentalists. I hope we can love each other without attacking.
