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The only problem with Chick's portrayal of the Vatican recruiting Graham through Hearst after WW2 is that Graham was a died-in-the-wool, hellfire preaching, liberal-fighting, Catholic opposing Fundamentalist in those days! John R. Rice mentored him and Bob Jones supported him! So Chick's narrative is based on a false premise.BobRyan said:In the link given on this thread for Jack Chick's views on Billy Graham we see two things...
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_08.asp
#1. We see a set of facts about Graham that all appear to ring true. His ministry was focused more on reaching the lost with the Gospel rather than dividing lines between Christian denominations.
#2. We see Chick's opinions of that and we see his view that this middle-road approach of Graham's was leveraged to some extent by some RC sources.
One may not agree with Chick's conclusions or even his view of Graham as a preacher -- but the facts stick.
in Christ,
Bob
John of Japan said:The only problem with Chick's portrayal of the Vatican recruiting Graham through Hearst after WW2 is that Graham was a died-in-the-wool, hellfire preaching, liberal-fighting, Catholic opposing Fundamentalist in those days! John R. Rice mentored him and Bob Jones supported him! So Chick's narrative is based on a false premise.![]()
To recruit churches to help promote and provide staff for the crusade, the Graham organization tried to contact every Protestant church within 50 miles of New York City. Organization officials wanted to buy a list, only to be told that none existed. It does now. It has 12,000 churches on it, though Mr. Bailey said that with more time the Graham researchers could have found more.
Of the 12,000 churches, 1,400 agreed to participate, the highest number of congregations in the history of the Graham crusades, Mr. Bailey said. They represent 80 denominations, from Adventist to Vineyard and include Mennonite, Messianic and Hebrew Pentecostal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/nyregion/23crusade.html
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]"He [Willis Haymaker*] would also call on the local Catholic bishop or other clerics to acquaint them with Crusade plans and invite them to the meetings; they would usually appoint a priest to attend and report back. This was years before Vatican II's openness to Protestants, but we were concerned to let the Catholic bishops see that my goal was not to get people to leave their church; rather, I wanted them to commit their lives to Christ." (Page 163, emphasis added)[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]*Willis Haymaker was the front man who would go into cities and make all the arrangements necessary to for the crusades.[/SIZE][/FONT]
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/billy_graham.html
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]My goal, I always made clear, was not to preach against Catholic beliefs or to proselytize people who were already committed to Christ within the Catholic Church. Rather, it was to proclaim the Gospel to all those who had never truly committed their lives to Christ. (Page 357) (emphasis added)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]I was grateful for the statement one U.S. Catholic newspaper made as it reviewed our first South American trip: 'Never once, at least in our memory, has [Billy Graham] attacked the Catholic Church. . . . (Page 368. Parenthesis in original)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]We also suspected, with some justification, that some of the hard-line Communist officials hoped to use an American Protestant evangelist to weaken the strong authority of the Roman Catholic Church. If so, it was a naive hope; I would not have done or said anything that might be taken as anti-Catholic.(Page 482. Referring to a Trip to Poland). (emphasis added)[/SIZE][/FONT]
BobRyan said:...
If someone here knows for a fact that he turned away Catholic or Orthodox clergy and would not let them minister during his crusades - please speak out.
Hint: I do know that he invited SDAs to participate.
:laugh: Never stop growing, amen?Ed Edwards said:This is acommon logical facalicy:
it happens with John Nelson Darby who is
condemned for teaching in 1828 what he taught in the
USofA after the civil war. Actually he (Darby or Graham)
grew a little in Grace in his last 40 years.
These young folks don't have 40 years of Bible study
under their belt to know: You can grow in Grace in
your last 40 yerars. (Goodness -- at my age I'm Cramming
for Finals![]()
In those days, before the New Evangelical movement really got under way, all the fundamentalist mass evangelists were interdenominational. They just wouldn't include liberals or Catholics. John R. Rice even had Pentecostals (pre-Charismatic) cooperate in his crusades as long as they were for souls being saved.BobRyan said:The problem with that portrayal is that Graham did have leaders from all different denominations as part of his volunteer staff. He was not known for directing his listeners to any specific denomination.
IF someone here knows for a fact that he turned away Catholic or Orthodox clergy and would not let them minister during his crusades - please speak out.
Hint: I do know that he invited SDAs to participate.
As a linguist, I have to tell you that words change in meaning, and one word can have many meanings. I think it is pretty strange to say someone is a Catholic spy simply because they use the word "crusade" for their evangelistic meetings.antiaging said:Gentlemen, Crusade is a roman catholic term. If you know anything about the crusades, they involved rape, murder and pillage of villages going from Europe all the way to the middle east to get to Jerusalem. The crusades were evil. Those were battle hardened sinnners among the crusaders, not real Christians.
So, who but a catholic spy, is going to name the work that he does for God a crusade?!!!
John of Japan said:As a linguist, I have to tell you that words change in meaning, and one word can have many meanings. I think it is pretty strange to say someone is a Catholic spy simply because they use the word "crusade" for their evangelistic meetings.
Until the word became politically incorrect for the very reasons you are giving, it was used in English in a lot of contexts for a lot of efforts, both Christian and non-Christian. Were those various organizations all Catholic? Pshaw!![]()
P. S. And remember, the Crusades were against the Muslims. I'm not pro-Catholic, but I'll take Catholics over Muslims any day! It was the Muslims who first conquored the Middle East by "rape, murder and pillage of villages" as you put it, and by forced conversions. Egypt, Iraq, Iran, all that area was once Christian until the Muslims took over and killed millions of Christians.
Well, this is kind of insulting, intimating that I'm unwise and deceived by religious charlatans in spite of the fact that you know me only from a couple of posts on the BB.antiaging said:Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
You know how to be harmless as a dove. That's good. Now learn how to be wise like a serpent also, and you're doing what Jesus said.
....
Why don't you pray to God and ask Him to show you how to be wise like a serpent, in the way that Jesus meant it. It might help you to avoid being deceived by religious con artists.
Ed Edwards said:// [Chick said Hort and Wescot were closet
catholics, and he's got the information to prove it.] //
Chick is full of himself
He can't prove it.
Ed Edwards said://I believe this is part of the apostacy prophecied
in 2 Thessalonians, the falling away from the faith.
They are falling away from the true Word of God,
and now using corrupted bibles that have the words changed.//
TeeHee.
I have no idea why people copy stuff from other sources (illegal on this board)
That have already oft been copied by other people (who are now
banned for not using BB protocall). I myself have said it before:
The Prime Directive of bb (bullentin boards):
READ BEFORE YOU WRITE.
It will save a lot of repeated errors and grief.
Here is an Old Bible:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our assembling vnto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde,
nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter,
as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
Yep, this Bible (Like the Bishop Bible before it and
the King James Version after it) are written in early MODERN ENGLISH
(not middle English - hardly anybody on this BB can read middle English).
Yep, 2 Thess 2:3 has no mention of 'apostasy' in it.
It is the MVs (Modern Versions of the 20th Century /1901-2000/
that say 'apostasy in them, not the Great Old Bibles
of the 16th-18th Centuries: 16th (1501-1600),
17th (1601-1700), and 18th (1701-1800).
Oh, the Translators of the Geneva Bibles had the English word 'apostasy'
(brought from the Greek) meaning falling from the faith - but they
chose 'departing'. IMHO that means a departing from THE EARTH.
In verse one Paul says He will talk about the 'assembling' conducted
by Jesus - here is where he speaks of it again: in 2 Thess 2:3.
That is the way I believe and I prove it from the KJVs
NOT from the MVs. TeeHee - searching for a Bible that proves
my theory and end up using the KJVs not my MVs.
But anybody could have looked that up, if they were interested
in reading the BB.
//Information provided by Robert Stewart//
Oops, you gave credit.
Please give a pointer.
I for one check especially all references to or about the Bible to
see if it really does say that especially in God's Holy UNALTERED & INERRANT
written Word - available in 100s of English Translations.
Anyway, IMHO, all the misinformation & poor opinions of
your quotation have been already debunked on the BB many times.
I see no reason to WRITE MY OWN STUFF AGAIN. Come on -
if it is in print somewhere, we Freedom Readers have already blown up
the untruths, wrong hunches, misinformation, propaganda.
Don't dare tell me ever that my TNIV is other then the UNTARNISHED
INERRANT Written Word of God preserved WITHOUT ERROR for
the 21st Century (2001-2100) (The century I live in).
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (TNIV = Today's New International Version, 2006):
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way,
for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs
and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Yep, the 'rebellion' is what I call the pretribulation
Rapture2 (Resurrection1 followed immediately by a Rapture1) of Jesus.
It opens the Tribulation Period (AKA: the Wrath of God) and is
phase one at the beginning of a 7-year-long 'day' of the Lord
(AKA: Day of Christ) called the Tribualtion Period.
But it sure is a lot easier to show in the OLD BIBLES
where 'departure' (or a form of it) is used in the 12
English Bibles preceeding the KJVs and 'falling away'
in the KJVs.
The rapture is post tribulation according to the words of Jesus.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.