Futurists cannot prove their assertions.

[The Biblicist]

You are clearly not reading what I have written and are instead responding to what you think I believe. You wasted all those allcaps. I never said that the battle in Jerusalem is what caused all the heart attacks. They were various things throughout the Empire. The violent turmoil in Rome causing bloody upheavals of short-lived leaders, before that violent insurrections in Britain (from Boudica). Even after her death there was still such turmoil that Nero was only barely persuaded not to give up Britannia entirely. Like I said, there were other conflagrations in many places in the Empire.

The point is that the text does not say that ! Read the text. What is causing distress all over the world or the "nations" are the signs in the heavens and what is coming upon earth. Rome always started upheavals but the text is not speaking of generalities that characterize Rome's history. You are continuing to offer nothing burgers. Jesus is not speaking about the general history of Rome but he is referring to a specific point in time "then" or at that point where "men" (not Jews, not Romans) but "men" making up these "nations" which cover the earth are in heart attack mode due to these signs at this specific point in time - what point in time? When Christ comes "in the clouds" (just as he left - Acts 1:11).

BTW,once again, this interpretation is one given by several commentators throughout the centuries. It is not just a preterist interpretation.

I could quote you a ton of false interpretations drawn from uninspired people throughout history!!! Yours is just another false interpretation simply because it cannot stand up to the plain language of the text.

Once again. you are arguing against something I am not saying. I am not limiting it to the Jews.

Jesus is not speaking about a prolonged history of the Roman upheavals but speaking of specific signs at a specific point in time ("then") that ushers in the coming of Christ "in a cloud" that "they" ("nations....men") SEE!
Here is where your theory and interpretation self-destruct because "men" and "nations" where not present to "SEE" the destruction of Jerusalem. What "men" and "nations" SEE is the visible personal coming of Christ - so much for your false theory.

You read too quickly - misunderstanding/ not caring what I wrote, pound the allcaps, throw in some insults. Is this all you have?

Your interepretation insults common sense and sound exegesis. Is this all I have???? Your theory simply fails as the men and nations or the Roman Empire was not present in Jerusalem to "see" this judgement upon Jerusalem but they will "see" Christ coming in the clouds and that is precisely what Jesus is saying these signs are ushering in - not some localized judgement but universal judgement so that all can see ("nations....men") these signs but "see" Christ himself coming in the clouds - these contextual facts obliterate your view.

 

[The Biblicist]

My apologies then. But your methodology is quite similar.

No problem, apologies accepted. I am more of a historical premillenialist.

 

[The Biblicist]

20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,

The above verses are time located in a very specific time period. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus states that the things found in the following verses (vv. 25-28) occur "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS."

So verses 20-24 above refer to the time period begun by the event described in verse 20. This period of time is brought to a close by the event described in verse 24a. They "shall fall by the edge of the sword" summarizes the conclusion of this period by the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70

Next, verse 24b is the transition period between those days in verses 20-24a and "then" time in verses 25-28. This transition period refers to the period of Gentile dominion over Jerusalem and Jews after its fall until the events of verse 25-28 occur. This transition period is the "times of the Gentiles" which extends from A.D. 70 to the events that usher in the Second Advent at the end of the age. TAKE NOTE OF THE WORD "UNTIL" as it is gives the extent or how long the Jews will be among the nations and how long Jerusalem will be under Gentile dominion.

and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Next, is a third period of time yet future from A.D. 70 period (vv. 20-24a), yet future from this transition period (v. 24b). The length of this this transition period is "fulfilled" when these terrestrial and celestial signs occur. That tells us the times of the Gentiles has come to an end.

Those "men" and "nations" in verses 25-28 "SEE" not only these signs but "SEE" Christ coming in a cloud. The only people who saw the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 were those armies that surrounded and those living within a few square miles around that city. However, Christ is not referring to the Jews and the Roman armies but to "men" and "nations" actually seeing these things. This is universal judgement coming upon the whole world at the personal visible Second Advent of Christ.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The judgment coming upon Jerusalem is merely a MINATURE preview of the greater judgement to come upon the whole world at His coming.

 

[robycop3]

I'll say it again - Scripture shapes history, but you are looking for a literal fulfillment of symbolic events. But then, both of us are repeating what we've said before.

I've shown why the coming events are not symbolic. That's just a pret smokescreen to attempt to cover their lack of proof for their assertions.

 

[robycop3]

Antiochus was the little horn that came from the Greek kingdoms,

Antichrist was the little horn that came from the ten horns, the ten nations that Rome split into when the Gothic kingdom replaced the Empire. That was fulfilled by the papal antichrist.

• Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
• 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Th popes have eyes which overlook their kindom which is called The Holy See. Each of his bifops have their own See,
He also has a mouth which speaks great things. Does not the press and TV of the whole world report the "great things" he proclaims from Rome.

• 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
• 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

He made war with the saints and prvailed against them. Who has made war with the saints and prevailed against them more than the papacy.

• 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
• 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The ten kindoms that came fom Rome happened when the last Roman Emperor resigned and handed his kingdon to the Gothic kings. The papacy is diverse from all the previous kings, in that his kingdom is not only temperal but also spiritual. He also wears a triple crown signifying (symbolising) his claim to rule over heaven, earth and hell. What other ruler has claimed that?

Again he speaks great words against the Most High, He has changed laws and wears out the saints of the most high. He thainks to change times and seasons. Our calendar is called the Gregorian named after the pope that introduced it.

The TRUE beast/antichrist will be one man, not a whole line of them, as the papacy is.

 

[robycop3]

No it doesn't.

• Daniel 11:31 and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Not a "he" but "they" They, the Romans would place the AOD. Luke tells us that was the armies surropunding Jerusalem. They were the ones that made Jerusalem desolate.

• Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

No where does it mention antchrist.

All fulfilled.

No, it's NOT.The antichrist wasn't mentioned to Daniel cuz Christ hadn't yet come.

And the "they" will likely be the 'beast's' workman who will set up his statue in the temple. That, along with the beast's exalting himself above God & every man-made god, will be the AOD.

 

[robycop3]

20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,

The above verses are time located in a very specific time period. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus states that the things found in the following verses (vv. 25-28) occur "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS."

So verses 20-24 above refer to the time period begun by the event described in verse 20. This period of time is brought to a close by the event described in verse 24a. They "shall fall by the edge of the sword" summarizes the conclusion of this period by the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70

Next, verse 24b is the transition period between those days in verses 20-24a and "then" time in verses 25-28. This transition period refers to the period of Gentile dominion over Jerusalem and Jews after its fall until the events of verse 25-28 occur. This transition period is the "times of the Gentiles" which extends from A.D. 70 to the events that usher in the Second Advent at the end of the age. TAKE NOTE OF THE WORD "UNTIL" as it is gives the extent or how long the Jews will be among the nations and how long Jerusalem will be under Gentile dominion.

and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Next, is a third period of time yet future from A.D. 70 period (vv. 20-24a), yet future from this transition period (v. 24b). The length of this this transition period is "fulfilled" when these terrestrial and celestial signs occur. That tells us the times of the Gentiles has come to an end.

Those "men" and "nations" in verses 25-28 "SEE" not only these signs but "SEE" Christ coming in a cloud. The only people who saw the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 were those armies that surrounded and those living within a few square miles around that city. However, Christ is not referring to the Jews and the Roman armies but to "men" and "nations" actually seeing these things. This is universal judgement coming upon the whole world at the personal visible Second Advent of Christ.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The judgment coming upon Jerusalem is merely a MINATURE preview of the greater judgement to come upon the whole world at His coming.

I believe the destruction of J & the temple were the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews, whom Jesus said was to be held responsible for every murder of a righteous person, from Abel onward.

A much-greater punishment fell upon the Jews a few generations later, when Hadrian expelled them from their land in 135-136 AD. This was far-worse than the Babylonian captivity where the jews were allowed to live together, under fairly-loose supervision by Babylon. When hadrian expelled them, they were scattered all over Europe & the Near East. They were hated & persecuted wherever they went. Only God's power kept them from being exterminated as a people. That punishment lasted til the nazis fell in 1945. And I believe that was their national punishment for rejecting & killing Jesus.

The "powers of the heavens" is a term for the orderly procession of the celestial objects in the sky - sun, moon, planets, stars. Evidently, the coming catastrophe will disrupt the earth's rotation & axial tilt. That's why I believe God will use a planet-size body to accomplish that great cosmological event. And I believe "men's hearts will fail them for fear" because the unsaved will believe that the earth's gonna collide with that visitor from space. But, of course, Jesus will return in the midst of it & calm the storm.

 

[David Kent]

No, it's NOT.The antichrist wasn't mentioned to Daniel cuz Christ hadn't yet come.

And the "they" will likely be the 'beast's' workman who will set up his statue in the temple. That, along with the beast's exalting himself above God & every man-made god, will be the AOD.

Rubbish.

Not worth further comment.

 

[David Kent]

I believe the destruction of J & the temple were the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews, whom Jesus said was to be held responsible for every murder of a righteous person, from Abel onward.

I agree with that.

The "powers of the heavens" is a term for the orderly procession of the celestial objects in the sky - sun, moon, planets, stars. Evidently, the coming catastrophe will disrupt the earth's rotation & axial tilt. That's why I believe God will use a planet-size body to accomplish that great cosmological event. And I believe "men's hearts will fail them for fear" because the unsaved will believe that the earth's gonna collide with that visitor from space. But, of course, Jesus will return in the midst of it & calm the storm.

Nonesense. A planet sized object would destroy all live on earth.

Perhaps meteorists would do it? Oh they come every year and the haven't done it yet.

 

[robycop3]

I agree with that.[/quote
Good!

Nonesense. A planet sized object would destroy all live on earth.

Not if they don't actually collide. Most of the plagues of the great trib can be caused by the gravity of a planet-size body approaching the earth. It would cause earthquakes, volcanism, disruption of the tides with tsunamis, disruption of the earth's rotation, and atmospheric disruption that could allow the sun's rays to come in at full power, among other things.

Perhaps meteorists would do it? Oh they come every year and the haven't done it yet.

Don't rule it out!

 

[robycop3]

Rubbish.

Not worth further comment.

That's cuz you don't have an answer. My intel is from SCRIPTURE, not some pret quack's stuff.

 

[David Kent]

That's cuz you don't have an answer. My intel is from SCRIPTURE, not some pret quack's stuff.

Martin Luther said to the prophets of his day "Nonsense is incapable of refutation."
Your intel is not from scripture but from Jesuits attemps to undermine scripture.

 

[robycop3]

Martin Luther said to the prophets of his day "Nonsense is incapable of refutation."
Your intel is not from scripture but from Jesuits attemps to undermine scripture.

How silly can you get???????????????????????????????

I POSTED THE SCRIPTURE ! !

 

[David Kent]

How silly can you get???????????????????????????????

I POSTED THE SCRIPTURE ! !

No it wasn't. You added your interpretation.

 

[robycop3]

No it wasn't. You added your interpretation.

The interp is self-explanatory.

Just face it, dude - You simply CANNOT justify preterism.

 

[David Kent]

The interp is self-explanatory.

Just face it, dude - You simply CANNOT justify preterism.

You are so funny.

Futurism and Preterism both encourage Catholicism, why do you think that Jesuits promoted them. The only one that Rome doesn't like is Historicism. The reformers quite correctly identified the pope as Antichrist. The preterist and futurist views werfe invented by the RCC to counter that. It is very sad that so many like you have been brainwashed into accepting them

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In verse 26 the word translated "world" is actually only the Roman Empire (οἰκουμένη), the known world at the time.

οἰκουμένη actually means the 'inhabited earth' and is not restricted to the Roman Empire. Try Luke 4:5 or Hebrews 2:5.
To say that the area outside the Roman Empire was unknown to the Romans is incorrect. They tried to invade both Germany and Parthia around or just before the time of Christ on earth.

 

[asterisktom]

οἰκουμένη actually means the 'inhabited earth' and is not restricted to the Roman Empire. Try Luke 4:5 or Hebrews 2:5.
To say that the area outside the Roman Empire was unknown to the Romans is incorrect. They tried to invade both Germany and Parthia around or just before the time of Christ on earth.

I was wrong to say "known" world. The area they knew about was clearly greater than the Roman Empire.

However I still stand on my definition of οἰκουμένη. Your two verses fit well enough into that definition.

Another verse is Luke 2:1:

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world [οἰκουμένη] should be taxed"

Clearly, Caesar was only able to tax those countries that were under the Roman sway. He was not planning to tax an area
"greater than the Roman Empire."

It is possible that οἰκουμένη may not always refer to the Roman Empire but in most cases. like Luke 2:1, it does seem to.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:25 AM Pacific.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I was wrong to say "known" world. The area they knew about was clearly greater than the Roman Empire.

However I still stand on my definition of οἰκουμένη. Your two verses fit well enough into that definition.

Another verse is Luke 2:1:

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world [οἰκουμένη] should be taxed"

Clearly, Caesar was only able to tax those countries that were under the Roman sway. He was not planning to tax an area
"greater than the Roman Empire."

It is possible that οἰκουμένη may not always refer to the Roman Empire but in most cases. like Luke 2:1, it does seem to.

The context shows what the meaning of οἰκουμένη is in any given text.
Luke 4:5. 'Then the devil, taking Him up onto a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.'
Hebrews 2:5. 'For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.'
It is a huge stretch to suggest that either of these refer to the Roman Empire.

Likewise, Matthew 24:14. 'And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.' It is an even bigger stretch to suggest that 'all nations' refers only to those within the Roman Empire, unless you have already somehow decided that the 'end' happened in AD 70 and that you have to shoehorn every text to fit your erroneous doctrine.