Gambling

[BrianT]

Hi Homebound,

I don't see how gambling is stealing from God.

Yes, missionaries could probably use the money. They could also use the money we spend on movies, books, restaurants, ballet, etc. Are these things therefore sin also?

And what about the cakewalk example I listed earlier, where gambling takes place to *raise* money for missions?

I guess we'll just tell them that we can no longer "give" them this money we raise, they'll have to work for it.

 

[Don]

Since Brian wished for someone to respond to his three scenarios:

Originally posted by BrianT:
Here's three gambling scenarios to mull over:

1. Where I work there are a couple hundred employees. Once in a while there is a 50/50 draw (for those who don't know what a 50/50 is, they sell tickets, putting all the money in a pot. The pull a winner at random, and the winner gets 50% of the pot, and the other 50% goes to charity). Our company pays very well, and nobody is taking food out of the mouths of their children when they kick a dollar into the 50/50 pot. In fact, most of the time the charity selected is the food bank, which puts food *into* the mouths of poor families. Also, usually the winner will donate a portion of their winnings to the food bank as well. When the person comes around selling tickets, I buy one if I have a dollar with me.

If everyone's doing just fine--you said $1 wasn't hurting anyone--then why not just give 100% of the pot to charity?

In fact, why don't you suggest that--and see how many people quickly say "No way" or stop putting in a dollar....

2. I used to attend a very strict, KJV-only, independent fundamental Baptist church. In place of halloween, they have a "Fall Festival" with games and stuff in the church. One of the events is a "cake walk": several ladies from the church donate cakes, then participants pay $2 to participate. Several papers, each with a number, are placed face down on the floor in a big circle. The participants walk the circle while music is played, and when the music stops, a number is drawn. If the number drawn matches the number on the piece of paper you are standing on, you win a cake. Not everyone wins a cake. I believe the money collected goes to missions or the building fund.

If the money's going to missions and/or the building fund, and people know that up front, then it's not really gambling, is it? There's no real chance of personal gain, is there?

3. I live in Canada, but we get some US television stations. I saw a commercial last night from the state of Washington which discussed how a portion of lottery money collected at casinos on Indian reserves goes to pay for equipment at public schools. I'm pretty sure similar things happen with lotto money up here in Canada. Those of you with children in public schools, what are you doing about this?

I don't have my kids in public schools, but I'll tell you what I know about state lotteries for education: Up to 50% (and possibly more) doesn't get used for education. It goes to pay the "overhead."

And the end result is the same: No one buys a lottery ticket to help schools out. They buy one for the chance to win the pot. "I'm helping the schools" is simply a way to feel better about it.

If you make it down to Washington, think about that as you watch the same sort of person I described with the bingo stuff buying a lottery ticket--or five, or, when the pot's really big, twenty or more.

Yep, they could've bought groceries for their kids to eat, but the temptation of winning that 50 million smackers was just too great....

Scripture? How about 1 Timothy 6:10? Or Proverbs 20:21?

Would you agree that the person who can't control his/her gambling is "weaker"? And yet we who are stronger continue to gamble in plain sight of them, because we can control ourselves? Which in most cases causes the weaker person to think (justify) to themselves, "Well, if he can do it...." (Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8)

Should we not be an example for others?

Clear scripture against gambling? The word gambling doesn't appear in the Bible; but then again, the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in there, either.

But I think we all would agree that the principle of the Trinity is quite clear...as should be the principle of gains gotten at the expense of others.

[ October 15, 2002, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[BrianT]

Thanks, Don.

1. 50/50 for charity:

Originally posted by Don:
If everyone's doing just fine--you said $1 wasn't hurting anyone--then why not just give 100% of the pot to charity?

They found that less gets donated to charity if they do that.

2. Cakewalk for missions:

If the money's going to missions and/or the building fund, and people know that up front, then it's not really gambling, is it? There's no real chance of personal gain, is there?

Yes, you might win a cake. That's the whole incentive, and raises more money than if they just put out an offering plate with a "missions" card in front of it.

3. Portion of casino profits going to schools:

Up to 50% (and possibly more) doesn't get used for education. It goes to pay the "overhead."

I realize this. I did not say all money raised goes to education. A portion does, though.

And the end result is the same: No one buys a lottery ticket to help schools out. They buy one for the chance to win the pot. "I'm helping the schools" is simply a way to feel better about it.

I agree no one is thinking about the schools when they plunk their quarter into the slot machine. But my point is that if some profits from gambling goes to improve your local school, how many here (whether they are parents or not) are writing to their schools to tell them not to accept the money, or writing to their congressman to tell them not to give lotto money to the schools in the first place?

Scripture? How about 1 Timothy 6:10? Or Proverbs 20:21?

Neither of them say gambling is a sin. I would agree though, that they would apply to the *abuse* of gambling.

Would you agree that the person who can't control his/her gambling is "weaker"? And yet we who are stronger continue to gamble in plain sight of them, because we can control ourselves? Which in most cases causes the weaker person to think (justify) to themselves, "Well, if he can do it...." (Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8)

I agree one should not do it in front of a weaker brother.

But I think we all would agree that the principle of the Trinity is quite clear...as should be the principle of gains gotten at the expense of others.

All gains are gotten at the expense of others. The biggest examples in the Western countries are insurance, bank loans, and the stock market.

[ October 15, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Hi Homebound,

I don't see how gambling is stealing from God.

Yes, missionaries could probably use the money. They could also use the money we spend on movies, books, restaurants, ballet, etc. Are these things therefore sin also?

And what about the cakewalk example I listed earlier, where gambling takes place to *raise* money for missions?

I guess we'll just tell them that we can no longer "give" them this money we raise, they'll have to work for it.

Romans 6:1 to answer that ?.

 

[Psalm145 3]

THE GAMBLER'S TWENTY-THIRD PSALM

"Gambling is my shepherd. I shall want. It forceth me to lie down in prison cells. It leadeth me in the paths of unrighteousness for the
Devil's sake. Yea, I will walk through the valley of the shadow of death because of this evil; for this fever is with me. Its rod and its staff they beat me. It taketh the food from my table in the presence of my family. It anointeth my head with trouble; my cup overfloweth with bitterness. Surely unhappiness and misery shall follow me all the days of my life, because I dwell in the gambling house and partake of government lotteries forever."

I found an excellent article on this subject, click here>>>
GAMBLING -- THE WINNER IS THE DEVIL

 

[Don]

Well, BrianT, I think you answered your own questions.

In the three scenarios that you presented, you basically replied to each that people don't give as much if they don't get something in return.

So I'd say "motivation" has a lot to do with it.

Sounds like the motivation for your scenarios is love of money and personal gain, rather than love itself.

ALL gains are gotten at the expense of others? Nah, I don't think so. The gains I get when I slip a $1 bill into the offering plate don't come at the expense of others. The gains I get when I throw a $10 bill in an envelope and send it to a friend in need don't come at the expense of others. The gains I get when I buy an ink cartridge for a missionary don't come at the expense of others.

Tell you what: Next time they come around for the 50/50, why don't you just put in a dollar and say, "Thanks, but no ticket"?

 

[Bible Student]

Those of you who gamble please tell me why you do so. What is the purpose for doing it?

Thanks Richard

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Don:
Well, BrianT, I think you answered your own questions.

In the three scenarios that you presented, you basically replied to each that people don't give as much if they don't get something in return.

So I'd say "motivation" has a lot to do with it.

Sounds like the motivation for your scenarios is love of money and personal gain, rather than love itself.

Hi Don,

Yes, motivation does have a lot to do with it. But you have not explained why that is sinful.

Every morning, I get in my car, and drive 30 miles on a busy highway. I gamble my life. Why? To go to work. Why do I go to work, what's my motivation? For personal gain, certainly not because I love to do things for my employer out of the goodness of my heart.

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I don't think it's that different either.

Are people sinning when they have a cakewalk? Are people sinning when they don't write to their congressman to tell them to stop giving lotto money to schools?

If personal gain is intrinsically sinful, then what about those "free" contests, where you can win money or prizes without actually spending any money? Do you have a problem with those as well?

 

[Don]

Every morning, I get in my car, and drive 30 miles on a busy highway. I gamble my life. Why? To go to work. Why do I go to work, what's my motivation? For personal gain, certainly not because I love to do things for my employer out of the goodness of my heart.

Not exactly truthful, is that?

Don't you do it so there's a roof over your family's head? So there's food on the table for your children to eat?

Where's the "personal gain"?

As opposed to, what's the first thing you think about buying with the money you win from gambling?

If your sole motivation for entering a cake walk is to win a cake...then yes, I'd question the sinlessness of it. Because if you're entering the cake walk for any other reason, then it really doesn't matter whether you win the cake or not, does it?

The Bible encourages us to not be slothful, and to work hard; I can't find a single verse that says 'take the easy road.'

Motivations have always been a biblical factor, Brian. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

Contests where you win prizes without actually spending any money? There is no such thing. You at the very least have to buy a stamp and an envelope, and a 3"x5" card....

And I notice you said nothing about my suggestion to just throw in the dollar and refuse the ticket....

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Every morning, I get in my car, and drive 30 miles on a busy highway. I gamble my life. Why? To go to work. Why do I go to work, what's my motivation? For personal gain, certainly not because I love to do things for my employer out of the goodness of my heart.

Not exactly truthful, is that?

Don't you do it so there's a roof over your family's head? So there's food on the table for your children to eat?

Where's the "personal gain"?
</font>[/QUOTE]Don, you're grasping. Do you honestly believe there is no "personal gain" in having a job??? Of course there's a roof over my family's head, and I have a mortgage payment to make each month. But I also spend money on frivilous things, as does everyone. I don't have a life so I can work, I work so I can have a life.

Are you suggesting that I take my paycheck, pay my bills, and give whatever money is left over back to my employer?

The Bible encourages us to not be slothful, and to work hard; I can't find a single verse that says 'take the easy road.'

We're not talking about taking the easy road instead of the hard road. It doesn't follow that not being a sloth means gambling is sinful.

Contests where you win prizes without actually spending any money? There is no such thing. You at the very least have to buy a stamp and an envelope, and a 3"x5" card....

Of course there's such a thing. The other day I was at the flower shop buying my wife some roses (imagine that, spending some money on something frivilous instead of giving it to missions). At the counter there were ballots you could write your name and phone number on, to win some clothing. At the video store, there was a free draw to win a DVD player. Are these sinful to enter????

And I notice you said nothing about my suggestion to just throw in the dollar and refuse the ticket....

Why should I refuse the ticket? Is it sinful to accept the ticket?

Go ahead Don, keep trying to pick that mote out of my eye...

[ October 16, 2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Instead of trying to point out what's so wrong with gambling why not try and point out what's so right about it. The Bible says that if we know to do good and doeth it not it is sin.
Murph

Who among us has put five bucks in a football pool? Raise your hand.

Who among us has evern played nickel poker at a friend's house? Raise your hand.

Who among us has purchased a 50/50 raffle ticket? Raise your hand.

Would you not say that you participated in these things because they provied an entertainment value?

Unless participating in things for sheer entertainment value has become a sin, then I still stand by my original statement:

That, while abuse of gambling is a sin, gambling in and of itself is not a sin, the same as alcohol, caffiene, tobacco, and the like.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Instead of trying to point out what's so wrong with gambling why not try and point out what's so right about it. The Bible says that if we know to do good and doeth it not it is sin.
Murph

Who among us has put five bucks in a football pool? Raise your hand.

Who among us has evern played nickel poker at a friend's house? Raise your hand.

Who among us has purchased a 50/50 raffle ticket? Raise your hand.

Would you not say that you participated in these things because they provied an entertainment value?

Unless participating in things for sheer entertainment value has become a sin, then I still stand by my original statement:

That, while abuse of gambling is a sin, gambling in and of itself is not a sin, the same as alcohol, caffiene, tobacco, and the like.

I think we tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater on these issues. Since they "could easily become" sinful, they are automatically sinful.

 

[Johnv]

And what about the cakewalk example I listed earlier, where gambling takes place to *raise* money for missions? I guess we'll just tell them that we can no longer "give" them this money we raise, they'll have to work for it.

Good point. Is gambling "stealing" if the church benefits from it?

 

[eric_b]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Who among us has put five bucks in a football pool? Raise your hand.

Who among us has evern played nickel poker at a friend's house? Raise your hand.

Who among us has purchased a 50/50 raffle ticket? Raise your hand.

Who here has ever told a lie? Raise your hand.

Wow, look at all those hands, lying must not be wrong.

Eric

[ October 16, 2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by eric_b:
Who here has ever told a lie? Raise your hand.

Wow, look at all those hands, lying must not be wrong.

That's not his point. Scripture says lying is wrong. But I just can't seem to find the verse that speaks against 50/50 tickets, can you?

 

[Bible Student]

I wish you would take a deep breath and answer my question I posted a few back, If you gamble, whay do you gamble what is the reason or reasons.

Thanks Richard

 

[eric_b]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eric_b:
Who here has ever told a lie? Raise your hand.

Wow, look at all those hands, lying must not be wrong.

That's not his point. Scripture says lying is wrong. But I just can't seem to find the verse that speaks against 50/50 tickets, can you?</font>[/QUOTE]If it wasn't his point he shouldn't have bothered posting it. Since he posted that flimsy argument, there should be no complaint about me refuting it.

I actually agree with you that the Bible doesn't explicitly forbid gambling, but it does say that we are to be good stewards over what God gives us. My gripe with gambling is as follows:

1) It is a complete waste of the resources God gives us, and therefore poor stewardship.

2) It is a poor witness to non-Christians.

3) It could cause weaker brothers and sisters with gambling addictions to stumble.

Just because we have freedom under Grace doesn't mean we have no responsibilities. Gambling is an irresponsible use of our freedom.

Eric

[ October 16, 2002, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: eric_b ]

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
[QB]

Originally posted by Ransom:
[qb]
You miss my point. Gambling is covetousness: the unlawful desire to possess someone else's property. Those who win in games of chance gain because everyone else loses.

Brian here is proof just as sure as lying is sin so is covetousness. I am sure that someone will deny this and claim that this is out of context. When you do it will not be the first time. I believe that if Jesus said " do not play poker" some people would say "well he didn't say blackjack" Again I say What is right about gambling?
urph

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by eric_b:
My gripe with gambling is as follows:

1) It is a complete waste of the resources God gives us, and therefore poor stewardship.

That point can be eradicated if you know you can outsmart your opponent. Most people are quite stupid about probabilities, so if you get into a game knowing both the rules and the probabilities better than an opponent, it would not qualify as "poor stewardship." I haven't done a lot of this, but certainly I've done enough to know, and my record is better here than in the stock market (which some posters insist is not gambling).

2) It is a poor witness to non-Christians.

It likely is. That's reason enough for me to not talk people into games of cards or betting on a few football games, even though I have been successful when I have done it.

3) It could cause weaker brothers and sisters with gambling addictions to stumble.

Sure the Baptist fall-back verse.

Gambling is an irresponsible use of our freedom.

Usually, but not necessarily. Next time I have the chance to take some guy who has far more resources than I have, I might well seize the opportunity.

 

[blackbird]

Brother Cynic!

You sure do know the percentages in football wagering!! Why don't you tell the boys and girls on the BB how much you lost on that LSU-Florida game this past weekend?? Tell them how "sure" you were that Florida was going to kick . . .!

50/50 wagering ain't bad--in the LLLOOOOOONNNNNGGG run you'll come out even. Flippin' a coin--at first there may be a string of "heads" then it'll swing to "tails" and if you keep flippin' for about a thousand times--it'll come out just about even numbers of heads drawn verses tails drawn! Betting on football is 50/50 unless you decide to go to point spread--which messes with the feeble mind!!

In the majority of the casino gaming tactics based on the mathmatical theory of combinations and permentations I have studied--the house is gonna be the winner in about 99.5% of the time!! I mean, the odds are stacked against you.

Remember the story of General Custer there at Little Big Horn!! Well, there are a lot of "Custer's" galloping into the casinos--and the Sioux are waiting to absorb their discharges! George was so sure of himself, wasn't he? Wonder how much money he lost on that last bet? He didn't know it--but he galloped into the skermish--a loser!! And the Sioux were not taking "white flags" that day!! Gamblers are galloping into a skirmish they can't win at

And it has already been posted your concern about the stock market--but for the boys and girls who have chosen to "stay in" for recess--why don't you enlighten their minds as to your views on Dow Jones, Nasdaq, and NIKI(Japan stock market)--I'm sure that if Ted Turner happens by and reads your true theory--it'll cause him to rush on out and sell everything he has in stock and then rush on over to Ameristar over in Biloxi and dump his wad in a "sure" thing!!

Your friend,
Blackbird