General Reconciliation

[37818]

It's there but you carefully side-step it to bolster your false teaching.

What is that false teaching?

 

[Van]

If you were a Jew, you would understand these verses. You try to read them like a cookbook and miss the entire point being made.

One false charge, one subject change, one dodge after another. Calvinism has been shown to be unbiblical by 1 John 2:2, 1 Peter 2:1 and 1 Timothy 2:6

 

[1689Dave]

One false charge after another, one subject change after another, General Reconciliation has been shown to be the biblical doctrine by 1 John 2:2, 1 Peter 2:1 and 1 Timothy 2:6.

You cannot understand these verses without the others that place constraints on them.

 

[1689Dave]

One false charge, one subject change, one dodge after another. Calvinism has been shown to be unbiblical by 1 John 2:2, 1 Peter 2:1 and 1 Timothy 2:6

You cannot see what others clearly see.

 

[1689Dave]

What is that false teaching?

The atonement does not save. People save themselves. = Pelagianism.

 

[Van]

You cannot understand these verses without the others that place constraints on them.

More claims of anonymous support. LOL

 

[Van]

You cannot see what others clearly see.

When will the rule again you, you posts be observed by Calvinists?

 

[1689Dave]

More claims of anonymous support. LOL

You cannot understand them. And you refuse to study those who do.

 

[1689Dave]

When will the rule again you, you posts be observed by Calvinists?

Calvinism is pretty uniform among believers.

 

[Van]

You cannot understand them. And you refuse to study those who do.

Non-stop false charges from the guy who isn't even able to not misrepresent me.

 

[Van]

Calvinism is pretty uniform among believers.

Calvinism is a bogus as a three dollar bill, and I have shown that to be true by citing contextually dozens of specific scriptures

 

[37818]

The atonement does not save. People save themselves. = Pelagianism.

Are sure you are not making a false accustion of Pelagianism in that? One can be a non-Pelagian and not be Calvinist you know. Do you believe the lie that Christ is only Lord of the saved? Romans 14:9. Romans 14:11.

 

[1689Dave]

Are sure you are not making a false accustion of Pelagianism in that? One can be a non-Pelagian and not be Calvinist you know. Do you believe the lie that Christ is only Lord of the saved? Romans 14:9. Romans 14:11.

Any Free will theology is elementary Pelagianism. A fact, Universal atonement does not save, also is Pelagianism in substance.

 

[atpollard]

Only that you asked a question that I had answered over and over again before you asked it in post #96

You appear to offer contradictory answers.

• It is absolutely clear that you reject the Doctrine of Grace position that Salvation is 100% the gift from a Sovereign God with ZERO contribution from those God has chosen to save. (Your views on ‘Calvinism’ and ‘Calvinists’ are clear).
• You deny that people save themselves. (Calvinists agree).
• You affirm that Jesus is the “propitiation” (Calvinists agree, you and I just differ on the breath of the applicability of the propitiation beyond those that are saved, however we both agree that the propitiation makes Justification of the saved possible).
• You then claim that God saves people by placing them in Christ (which we probably agree on, although the details of what we each mean by that phrasing may need to one day be clarified) ... however you include a caveat in the middle of your version of God saving that makes the work of God based on “our faith”.
• So it is ALL of God AND our faith.

Therein lies our confusion with your answer and the reason that you were asked the direct question about whether

1. Salvation is 100% of God
2. People play any part at all in their salvation.

Your answer has restated your beliefs (as you said), but it has not clarified the role of “our faith” as our contribution that differentiates the saved from the lost, or is “our faith” another of the gifts of God?

 

[Van]

You appear to offer contradictory answers.

• It is absolutely clear that you reject the Doctrine of Grace position that Salvation is 100% the gift from a Sovereign God with ZERO contribution from those God has chosen to save. (Your views on ‘Calvinism’ and ‘Calvinists’ are clear).
• You deny that people save themselves. (Calvinists agree).
• You affirm that Jesus is the “propitiation” (Calvinists agree, you and I just differ on the breath of the applicability of the propitiation beyond those that are saved, however we both agree that the propitiation makes Justification of the saved possible).
• You then claim that God saves people by placing them in Christ (which we probably agree on, although the details of what we each mean by that phrasing may need to one day be clarified) ... however you include a caveat in the middle of your version of God saving that makes the work of God based on “our faith”.
• So it is ALL of God AND our faith.

Therein lies our confusion with your answer and the reason that you were asked the direct question about whether

1. Salvation is 100% of God
2. People play any part at all in their salvation.

Your answer has restated your beliefs (as you said), but it has not clarified the role of “our faith” as our contribution that differentiates the saved from the lost, or is “our faith” another of the gifts of God?

I say salvation is by God alone, and you say it is not clear I believe salvation is 100% by God alone.
I say salvation does not depend on the person "willing or working" for salvation, but upon God alone, Romans 9:16 and you say it is not clear.
What is clear is you can claim non-clarity using the fallacy of person incredulity.

 

[1689Dave]

You appear to offer contradictory answers.

• It is absolutely clear that you reject the Doctrine of Grace position that Salvation is 100% the gift from a Sovereign God with ZERO contribution from those God has chosen to save. (Your views on ‘Calvinism’ and ‘Calvinists’ are clear).
• You deny that people save themselves. (Calvinists agree).
• You affirm that Jesus is the “propitiation” (Calvinists agree, you and I just differ on the breath of the applicability of the propitiation beyond those that are saved, however we both agree that the propitiation makes Justification of the saved possible).
• You then claim that God saves people by placing them in Christ (which we probably agree on, although the details of what we each mean by that phrasing may need to one day be clarified) ... however you include a caveat in the middle of your version of God saving that makes the work of God based on “our faith”.
• So it is ALL of God AND our faith.

Therein lies our confusion with your answer and the reason that you were asked the direct question about whether

1. Salvation is 100% of God
2. People play any part at all in their salvation.

Your answer has restated your beliefs (as you said), but it has not clarified the role of “our faith” as our contribution that differentiates the saved from the lost, or is “our faith” another of the gifts of God?

Universal atonement does not save. You deny the blood of Christ and his death on the cross as the only means of salvation. You think "good" people save themselves through obedience which is the heresy of Pelagianism.

 

[AustinC]

I do, over and over again. Take a gander at post #15 for example.
Now look at post #130, a denial of the obvious.

The idea the fault is with me, and not instead with the Calvinists is wrong.

Post #130 clearly points to the fact that Van has not and never will answer my question.

What is the means of salvation, van?
Do humans play a part in the means by which they are saved? Or is the means by which humans are saved entirely by God alone?
Van, I believe the means of salvation is entirely by God alone. Do you agree?

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 10 pm EDT / 7 pm PDT

 

[AustinC]

Universal atonement does not save. You deny the blood of Christ and his death on the cross as the only means of salvation. You think "good" people save themselves through obedience which is the heresy of Pelagianism.

You didn't answer atpollard's question. Would you kindly answer his question?

 

[atpollard]

Universal atonement does not save. You deny the blood of Christ and his death on the cross as the only means of salvation. You think "good" people save themselves through obedience which is the heresy of Pelagianism.

Two comments:

1. “I” do none of the things that your post claims “you” do. I happen to believe in Limited Atonement as the slightly stronger biblical position, however even if I accepted the General Baptist case for Universal Atonement and believed in a Wesleyan “prevenient Grace”, that would NOT “deny the blood of Christ and his death on the cross as the only means of salvation”. As a 5 point Calvinist and a Particular Baptist, I most certainly do not “think” good people save themselves. Nor, in point of fact, do Particular Baptists and Wesleyan Arminians “think” that good people save themselves.
2. The Pelegian heresy actually has no need for a “Universal Atonement”, since they believe that people save themselves by living a life that actually pleases God on its own merits.

These discussions are hard enough and emotional enough without deliberately misrepresenting the beliefs of the other side.