Good post! Thank you for listening and replying. :thumbsup:
skypair said:
OK, you are defining it NOW as nature and non-verbal revelation -- "things seen," as Paul calls them in Rom 1, right? There's a couple of problems there, to me. 1) "Revelation" means "seen," for one, doesn't it? Such that even what is heard must be "seen." Hmm. 2) Dispensations then -- are they heard or seen? special or general? (I think I offer a better way to distinguish "general" from "special revelation" below.)
It seems that right from the start we have been "pushing a string" as you poetically put it, concerning definitions of revelation. I just assumed that you would define special revelation as verbal and understand that natural revelation was non-verbal, since this is a fairly standard view in the theologies. Sorry about that!
You strike me as self-educated in theology--a good thing, but that means that sometimes your views are non-standard. I know what that is like, since when I go back to the States I am sometimes ambushed by issues and views I've never heard of.
Let me address your two points here. (1) No, revelation does not mean "seen." Here is the definition in Thayer's Greek lexicon: "1) laying bear, making naked 2) a disclosure of truth, instruction 2a) concerning things before unknown 2b) used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all 3) manifestation, appearance"
(2) Concerning dispensations, I don't consider them to be revelation at all except as we learn of them through the Bible. In other words, God doesn't necessarily tell humankind that they are being tested at the beginning of each dispensation.
That's pretty clear. Was the gospel of John the Baptist spoken? I assume it to be "special" then, right? Have you studied Acts 19? Why did his "special" revelation result in a different, non-indwelt salvation (a question of mine that YOU have neglected to answer)??
In fact, it comes to mind that all the OT was spoken until Moses began writing it down. I think maybe this "spoken" thing has the discussion off track. We both agree that conscience is "general" revelation but it is NOT spoken, is it.
My statement was that special revelation is verbal, not that it is spoken per se. As for John's Gospel, what was revelation of it is that which is recorded in the NT. John's special revelation resulted in a non-indwelt salvation because it was still from the previous dispensation. I didn't answer this before since I didn't and don't see any connection to the OP.
"and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
"Puzzle me" what it says to you, Batman. :smilewinkgrin: I'm game. What are the 7 spirits sent forth into all the earth? Even the context isn't a huge clue, is it. I step out on the notion that not only this passage but the seals reflect a view of the 7 dispensations. The case of the seals is easier made as they are pretty clearly revived dispensational "tests" which I will explain if you want to get off topic.
The standard explanation in the commentaries is that this is just a poetic way of speaking of the Holy Spirit. That makes sense to me, but I see no need to interpret it, really, since the context does not. As a mentor of mine once said, "I'm willing to let God have some secrets."
Only to the extent that it shows another "program" for salvation. There is NOTHING as detailed as the list you give. Understanding how those on the right are justified is understanding how we are justified. But infants is another thing. IF infants go to heaven, it is NOT under the same "program"/same requirements that you and I go under, right?
Now you are making sense. I finally see why you keep coming back to the OT saints and the infants. However, it is one thing to postulate the existence of another mode of salvation, but it is another thing to prove it, and I feel you haven't, especially since there is no Scripture on your side. I can postulate the existence of a purple space ship with Elvis in it since the space shuttle exists and there are people with doubts about Elvis's death. But the speculation is entirely improvable. :smilewinkgrin:
Wandering? I don't think so. I believe I am supplying you with MY rationale and trying honestly to ask your questions. Am I maybe confusing you with others here who don't think there is but one gospel? one salvation? or is that what you also believe despite Acts 19??
The reason I said that was because of your frequent forays into dispensationalism, etc., things that I feel have nothing to do with the OP.
You're wrong there. I said that all religion transmits the notion that 1) there IS a God AUTHORITY (the 3rd dispensation) and 2) that we are imperfect and 3) that somehow there is a set of laws to be observed, many paralleling the 10 commandments. Do you find that to be true? Yes, from this the individual is expected to discover the unseen "Godhead" -- True God that is NOT in that religion. That is when the Holy Spirit comes in and shows them True God. Let THAT be the SPECIAL revelation as it indeed IS, and everything else GENERAL, OK? Perhaps we should agree that special revelatin IS the Holy Spirit speaking to man and not limit it to the situation where man speaks to man, right? In fact, that pretty much makes the missionary one who has the most HS to offer and yet keeps the work of salvation in God's hands where it belongs, right? And it is God that gives the SPECIAL revelation unto salvation always.
I agree with your (2) and (3) here, but certainly not with your (1). The typical religionist views God not as authority but as convenience. The typical idolator only goes to his "god" in time of need. I could write a book on that, since I deal with idolatry on almost a daily basis. You are not factoring in the tendency of humans to degrade religion.
Concerning revelation being the Holy Spirit speaking to man, no I don't agree with that. I believe special revelation has ceased for the nonce, and that is the standard dispensational position, is it not? For more on my views about the nature of revelation and whether it exists today, see a previous thread started by me:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34389
Right indeed! They draw close to self whilest trying to discover self , not God. Yet the unseen is in the seen -- an divine outline of what they ought believe which we are calling "general revelation." And in the soul/conscience IS God awareness. Do you believe that? And the "wind [Holy Spirit] listeth where it will" in bringing them to salvation.
I believe that the oft-mentioned "God-shaped hole" in the heart of man exists. However, it can only teach the existence of some god, not explicitly the loving and holy God of special revelation. I see absolutely no Scripture anywhere that elevates the God taught by conscience to a Savior.
Did Jesus not tell the Jews to do as the Pharisees told them? and then turn around and say to the Pharisees that some of their "wards" would sit down in the kingdom of God but they themselves would be "cast out?" Is that an example of what you are looking for?
Nope, not what I'm looking for. The Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God, and it was through that special revelation that they learned how to be saved, not through their religion, which by the time of Christ had grown to emphasize not God's Word, but the tithing of mint and anise.
Well, I hope you won't accuse me of not replying again. I copied everything and believe I have addressed it all as well. Look forward to your reply.
skypair
Good job.:thumbsup: