General Revelation

[Van]

“The wider hope may have a right or wrong meaning. If by it is intended no more than we repudiate the dark limits with which Calvinism has circumscribed the divine perfection of mercy, and that the church does not permit us with certainty to say of any soul, with the possible exception of one, that it is irretrievably lost, we most cordially accept the term.”

The above view of “Wider Hope” meaning unlimited atonement was written in 1885. So we must provide a specific definition of wider hope to know we are on the same page.

“Most proponents of a Wider Hope view are not Universalists. Rather, there is still a view that some will have a positive eternal destiny and some will not. However, the way to get in on the atonement is not only by an explicit response to the message of the Good News, but by various other means.” (Written by Daniel C. Juster)

“Those of the Wider Hope perspective embrace the truth that human beings are only destined for heaven through the great act of God in the crucifixion and resurrection of Yeshua. All who are ultimately saved will only be saved through him. However, the application of that sacrifice may be very broad. Those of the widest Wider Hope are Universalists.” (Written by Daniel C. Juster )

So in summary, what I mean by wider hope is the view that folks can be saved by various means other than God crediting their faith in Christ as righteousness during their lifetime.
Folks that never have heard the call of the gospel die in unbelief and remain condemned having never had an opportunity to embrace Christ. If you advocate something else, you are advocating “wider hope.”

 

[Skandelon]

Hi Skandelon, feigning outrage

It's not outrage and its not feigned. It is aggravation and it is very much REAL. I've explained the context of my dream comment a couple of times and yet you still draw false conclusions, so I'm not going to play that game with you. If you want to know what I believe for REAL you can go back and read my posts. And you can study the article that YOU posted.

Comparing me to Clinton's response to being caught in an affair is about one of the most asinine things I've ever heard.

So you are not arguing for soul sleep but you brought it into the discussion. As what another red herring?

Van, I told you why I brought it up. There are MANY speculations as to what happens to OT believers and that is just one of them. My point is that it doesn't matter regarding the issue of one being credited as righteous for their faith. You even said the OT saints were 'approved'...how is that different from being declared 'righteous?'

And to repeat for the third time, Rehab did not go to heaven based on obtaining approval through faith.

Approval for WHAT? To go to Abs Bosom where she would hear the gospel and be more approved? Either way she was APPROVED, credited as Righteous, and got further special revelation because of HER faith in general revelation. Like I said, God can bring special revelation to those who respond to his general revelation by whatever means he wants. You think he does so post-mortem and I suggested he could use a dream if he wanted to, yet you attack my view???

Only after she was placed spiritually in Christ and was made perfect, did she go to heaven. Therefore, no one goes to heaven without knowledge of the name of Jesus, He is the way.

Fine. And so if someone responds (like Rahab did) to God's general revelation and God wants to reveal the gospel to them (like he did for Rahab), how might he do that? He might compel a preacher to go (most likely), he might send them to a post-mortem evangelistic rally lead by Jesus (similar to your Abraham Bosom theory) or he could send them a dream, or help them find a bible, or SOMETHING ...fill in the blank _________.

The point is that God CAN get the gospel to people like Rahab today who express faith in general revelation (if the gospel is absolutely required, as you believe it is, and which I affirmed is most likely in my conversation with Heir), BUT my discussion with Heir was about the legal necessity to do so. Apparently that went right past you as you failed to seek to understand my view but instead simply attack.

I am beginning to believe you are not here to understand, discuss or debate views, but to attack them. It's hard to attack what you have yet to understand. Seek clarity before you attack please.

 

[Skandelon]

Van: Skandelon suggested Exclusivism was not the orthodox baptist view.

Our argument over orthodoxy was concerning your view of Abraham's Bosom, which (as I explained) has typically been understood as just another term for 'heaven.'

And even your quote from Retired Canadian Pastor, Robert stated, "Though Ephesians 4:8-10 is interpreted differently by some, it is often taken to mean..."

Interpreted differently by some?

often taken to mean?

Retired Canadian Pastor?
​

Hardly a strong case to support the assertions that your view is the bastion of baptist orthodoxy while mine is worthy of your vehement attacks...

And your quote from Ken about 'exclusivity' of the gospel is from a guy who disagrees with you about the salvation of babies and the mentally handicapped, proving he doesn't support the same view of 'exclusivity' that you do. In fact, when you study his article more in-depth he is simply addressing the issue of salvation through other world religions, which neither one of us would affirm.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Hi Michael,

I provided a quote which said Exclusivism was the orthodox view among Baptists and Evangelicals.

Now that view might be wrong, but that is the view I was taught in Baptist churches. I had not even heard of wider hope until I encounter Arminians on the internet.

Very well. I understand.

 

[Van]

Folks, Skandelon continues to run away from his assertions. I explained that the method of incorporating dead OT saints into Christ was a one time deal, and Skandelon continues to claim folks under the New Covenant could obtain approval through general revelation. Rahab had more than General Revelation, see Jushua 2:9. Next, she lived among the Israelites, and is even mentioned in the genealogy of Christ. It is speculative, but she may have obtained knowledge of Yahweh from travelers prior to meeting the two spies. In any event, she had more than general revelation.

Next, I said your views were unorthodox and specifically refereed to three of them, soul sleep, wider hope, and opportunity for post-Morten salvation.

And now for the second time I will answer that they, the OT saints were not declared righteous. Their faith was credited as righteousness to them, i.e they had faith that God accepted. This did not make them righteous. The only way to be made righteous is to be spiritually placed in Christ. This is now the second time I have explained this. Did you read Hebrews 11:39-40? The OT saints had to wait to obtain the promise, they did not receive it apart of Christ, for we are made perfect in Christ.

No flesh, not even Rahab's, is justified, i.e. made righteous, through the law, but only through faith in Christ. This is Baptist orthodoxy.

Now I see you have employed another dodge, God can do this or that. God can do all things, nothing is impossible. So the issue is not what God can do, but what scripture says He did do. God does not send a vision or dream to folks who obtained approval through faith based on general revelation. That unorthodox view has no support in scripture, none, and therefore violates the scripture alone orthodoxy.

I am here presenting the orthodox Baptist view of Exclusivism. I defend biblical doctrine all the time. That is what I do. To charge me with evil motives is simply yet another liberal behavior, like Obama running from his record by addressing false charges concerning Romney's behavior. Exactly the same M.O.

 

[Van]

One more point, I posted the quote from the retired Baptist so you would understand my view of how OT saints got to heaven was not something I invented, it is the view of many Baptists.

By the numbers:

1) Abraham's bosom is taught in scripture, the RCC doctrines of limbo are not.

2) Abraham's bosom is not the same as Paradise, for Paradise is heaven, the third heaven the abode of God. John 3:13 precludes the possibility that those who were carried to Abraham's bosom had been carried to Paradise or heaven.

3) Soul Sleep is a view of JW's, not orthodox Baptists.

 

[Van]

Here is another link to an evaluation of various "Inclusivism" arguments including a Calvinistic one. In for a penny, in for a pound.


http://david.dw-perspective.org.uk/...y-will-be-saved-three-inclusivisms-evaluated/

Note that Evangelical Wider Hope comes out of Arminianism.

 

[Skandelon]

Folks, Skandelon continues to run away from his assertions.

Van, who do you think you are talking to when you refer to 'folks'? You've lost all credibility with anyone and everyone who spends more than a few minutes following your posts. This quote above is the last sentence of yours that I read... I couldn't take any more so if you said something useful in the following sentences or posts, I've missed it because I just can't take it any longer.

You attack without even attempting to understand what people are talking about and in doing so you misrepresent almost everyone you engage. I don't know of a single poster you've not done this to. I actually like some of your views and I think you are probably a very bright individual, but your combative and reactionary tendencies coupled with your competitive nature leads you to be unbearable to engage for any length of time. If I had any indication you were really attempting to understand my view and engage it I might continue, but I don't. I'm sorry but this discussion is over.

 

[Van]

Hi Skan, your post 168 is off topic, addressing the poster and not the topic. Liberal M.O.

Returning to topic:

1) Faith comes from hearing the word of God, i.e. faith comes from understanding and accepting the gospel of Christ. This is the orthodox baptist view.

2) General revelation declares the glory of God, that He exists and is awesome. Thus without the law, men are without excuse for their denial of Him, and their ungodly self serving behaviors. This is the orthodox Baptist view.

3) Baptists believe in scripture alone, as the sole authority for faith and practice, and eschew the traditions of men, such as the doctrines of limbo of the RCC or the JW soul sleep heresy.

4) The method used by God to incorporate the OT saints in Abraham's bosom, was a one time event, but now everyone is under the New Covenant, where for those who have been born again, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

5) Just because the messenger brings bad news, i.e. what you thought was true has proved to be false, is no reason to shoot the messenger. Abraham's bosom is not Paradise because Paradise is the third heaven, the abode of God, heaven. And Jesus said when He was walking the earth no one had ascended to heaven.

Folks, God Bless and keep living by His Word

 

[Skandelon]

And you think accusing me of 'running away from my assertions' while you continue to misrepresent what I explain to you over and over again IS ON TOPIC? If anyone is running from anything, its you running from the article YOU posted where a reasonable scholar clearly laid out the various positions and addressed each one in an objective and honest manner. I'd be happy to do that with you, but clearly that isn't your MO, which is why I've pulled the plug. Until you can restate my position in an honest, objective and cordial manner (i.e. not accusing me of 'running', not accusing me of being unorthodox, not accusing me of denying 'faith alone,' or not accusing me that I don't affirm that Christ is the only way we can be saved, etc) then this and all other discussions with you are over. I'm not letting you continue to derail otherwise good discussions with this non-sense.

I apologize to Heir for allowing myself to get distracted by this...I should have ignored his first post and just continued addressing you.