And the doubles down. Sad.
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genesis 1:1 and creation ex nihilo
- Thread starter Calminian
- Start date
And the doubles down. Sad.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
For God? TODAY is the 7th day.
For man, Genesis 2 begins on day 6 ...
[Hebrews 4:1-11 NIV] 1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' " And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "On the seventh day God rested from all his works." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it "Today." This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
For man, Genesis 2 begins on day 6 ...
- [Gen 1:27-31 NIV] 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." 29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so. 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.
- [Gen 2:7, 15-16 NIV] 7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. ... 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
- [Gen 2:19-20 NIV] 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
- [Gen 2:21-22 NIV] 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Yes, it does appear that way. I have heard of an eighth day, but only with respect to the new creation (and Christian worship being on the “eighth” day). Regarding this creation, God ceased on the sixth day and rested on the seventh. Unlike the first six days, Genesis does not close the seventh; there is no ‘And the evening and the morning were the seventh day.’ While God is always at work, the indication is that this creation was completed; there is no ‘day eight’ to it.
I think Hugh Ross and others use this to imply that days were ages, and thus, we're still in the 7th age. But problems abound. Moses surely didn't see in that way. He likened the 6 day work week to the creation week.
Ex. 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work.... 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
And what about the numerous passages that ascribe work to God after the creation? Jesus' is the most significant, "My Father has been working until now...."
Psa. 74:12 For God is my King from of old,
Working salvation in the midst of the earth.
Psa. 95:9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
Jer. 50:25 The LORD has opened His armory,
And has brought out the weapons of His indignation;
For this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts
In the land of the Chaldeans.
Jer. 51:10 The LORD has revealed our righteousness.
Come and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.
Dan. 9:14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
John 5:20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Luke 19:37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen,
Heb. 3:9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
Working salvation in the midst of the earth.
Psa. 95:9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
Jer. 50:25 The LORD has opened His armory,
And has brought out the weapons of His indignation;
For this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts
In the land of the Chaldeans.
Jer. 51:10 The LORD has revealed our righteousness.
Come and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.
Dan. 9:14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
John 5:20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Luke 19:37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen,
Heb. 3:9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
No, the idea that we are still in the seventh day is not problematic at all. Problematic would be Jesus saying God has always been working when the Law clearly says God rested after the six days of creation. Jesus made no exception for the seventh day. Was Jesus contradicting Moses? No, not at all. Perhaps the first passage in your long list sums it up best:
Psa. 74:12 For God is my King from of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.
God has always been working for our salvation. This dovetails perfectly with what Jesus came to do through the Incarnation. God is not some distant deity but always active for our sakes. He only rested from the creative work leading up to the seventh day.
But you're claiming the week after creation has not ended, we're still in the 7th day. Yet it's very clear that Moses believed the creation week was the first week and than many weeks followed after this.
It's also problematic with statements Christ made. He said Adam and Eve were created male and female from the beginning. And not just this, the beginning of Creation. In your mind, if we're still in the 7th age and man was created near the end of the 6th age, you have a serious problem with Christ's words, for you are arguing that the first couple was made toward the end of the creation.
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
You may need to be more explicit here. I do not see where Moses indicated there was more than one creation week, the creating being in the first six days.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Not sure what your argument is. Creation is six days. Adam and Eve were created on the sixth of those. Are you saying Jesus said they were created on the first day or earlier? Or are you saying Jesus said God did not rest from creating?
I understand Jesus to be saying that from the beginning, that is, creation, God created man male and female. In other words, with the creation of the very first couple, God established the meaning of marriage. Reading any more than that into the text is unnecessary and problematic.
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder (Matthew 19:4-6).
No because I take the Genesis account in a straightforward manner. In the beginning there was a literal creation week. That week was the beginning of creation.
You're asserting that the days were not literal and we're still in the 7th day/age. That puts you at odds with Christ.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
How long each of the six literal days of creation lasts does not change their relationship to the beginning, nor change the fact that great multitudes of things have their beginning during those six days. Trying to be hyper-literal with “beginning” does not help resolve the problem you are creating here. Man and woman and marriage have their beginning on day six, not day one or earlier. This is what Jesus is referring to and we agree on that. Trying to do something with the text that it is not trying to do could put you at odds with Jesus.
I'm not following this logic. Do you believe we're still in the beginning of creation? If not, you have to separate the 7th day from the beginning, for you've turned the days into ages. The 7 days, themselves, can no longer be the beginning of creation (which is the natural interpretation of the early Genesis account). In your interpretation, these days now span the eons of time even until now. The beginning of creation would now have to be billions of years prior to Adam and Eve, at some relatively early point on day 1.
You see, if you want to align yourself with the modern philosophies of our day, you have to give the Text a backseat to man's view of origins. You do this with Genesis, now you're doing it with Jesus' words.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
You seem to have constructed something in your mind that is not required. If there is a real problem, it must exist regardless of the length of days.
No matter how you slice it, man was not there at the beginning of creation, God was. Man doesn’t show up till day six. Regardless of how long the days were, man was still not there at the beginning, nor was he there on day one.
Man was there at his own beginning, but alone. Yet Jesus refers to the union of the first man and woman. It is this beginning that is in view. This happens later on day six, which is the end of creation, not the beginning of creation. Day six closes the days of creation, regardless of how long those six days were.
Day seven is not a day of creation. Day seven is the day God rested or ceased from creating. It does not matter how long day seven is, it is still not a day of creation. The sixth and last day of creation ended a very long time ago. Regardless of whether it ended, the day of rest began a very long time ago. So, obviously we are not in the days of creation, as they ended a very long time ago.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
That is a non sequitur and essentially ignores the history of science and philosophy, especially their modern history. I can understand your fear but consider it ill-founded. I am not aligning with modern philosophies, especially not scientism or evolutionism. There is one exception. I do align with Christianity, which I admit is a mere two-thousand-year-old revelation, but it has its roots in the prophetic writings of ancient Israel and all of the covenants with man going all the way back to Adam, the first man, made by God, who created the entire universe we know and much more that we cannot see.
Since you have pressed the point so hard, I am offering this link for anyone who wishes to pursue it further: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/six_days_of_creation.html I have not studied this particular link in-depth, but it seems to lay out the issues rather well and provides a PDF of the information. It seems to be a rather reliable apologetics site in general for those who wish to avoid being entangled in modern philosophies.
No, because the Hebrew word beginning, re'shiyth, can refer to a beginning period of time, rather than a beginning point of time. In fact it often does in the O.T., such as referring to the beginning of the reign of certain kings. So a 7 day period beginning is perfectly logical. But you're positing a 7 day age that is still going on today, with man being created late in the 6th segment. That would never be considered the beginning of creation, in the modern or ancient mind.
And bingo. There you have it. You want us to believe you over Christ himself.
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God “made them male and female.’
I trust Christ over you.
I'm aways amazed at the hermeneutical backflips men are willing to do to harmonize the Bible with modern philosophies of origins.
Actually there are 2 types of fears going on here, in a sense. I fear God and revere his word. You revere man's word, first and foremost, and attempt to reconcile God's word to man's word. I have no fear of man's word. Sometimes man is right, often he's wrong. Man has had several philosophies of origins throughout his 6 or so thousand years of history. And the Church has often tried to reconcile Scripture to those various theories. We saw this in Galileo's day, when Galileo (a young earth creationist, BTW) went against the secular geocentric science of his day. Same thing today with deep time and evolution.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
I trust Christ over me too, and over you as well.
Amen to that. 
But “bingo” nothing, as you obviously took my words completely out of context, but worse you seem to be doing the same to Christ’s, or making him say something completely contradictory to Scripture. Do you really believe that God created man on day one or earlier, and not on day six? Do you really believe that is what Christ meant? That must be what you believe according to your response to what I wrote.
Do you really believe God created on day seven, even though Scripture specifically says he rested from creating on day seven having completed his creating on day six? That must be what you believe according to your response to what I wrote.
Your responses leave me amazed at some men as well. It looks like the zeal to disagree has led to your disagreeing with yourself and with God. But, no, I don't expect anyone to believe me over God. And your suggesting that I do is ridiculous ad hominem. Nor do I expect anyone to believe you over God. But I'm not trying to accuse you of attempting that sort of sway. I always hope for better, brother, including from you.
Maybe next time.I trust Christ over me too, and over you as well.
But “bingo” nothing, as you obviously took my words completely out of context, but worse you seem to be doing the same to Christ’s, or making him say something completely contradictory to Scripture. Do you really believe that God created man on day one or earlier, and not on day six? Do you really believe that is what Christ meant? That must be what you believe according to your response to what I wrote.
No, you would have to say that, as you believe day six was not at the beginning. Think about it. If you weren't trying to squeeze millions of years into the Bible, you'd look at the 7 days as the beginning, just as Jesus did. And indeed they were the beginning, man made on day 6. That was the beginning period in which God created the heavens the earth the sea and all that is in them (Exodus 20:11) God resting on the 7th day. But that week was at the beginning if you read the Bible in a plane straightforward manner.
But that doesn't work with modern philosophies of origins, so you have to make up things like the day-age theory and somehow say the 7th day isn't really a day, it's the present age, etc. And, you believe man was made millions, even billions of years after the heavens and earth were created.
Never said God created on the 7th day. You made that up. But the seven days comprise the beginning according to Genesis. These days were at the beginning and they have formed the work week.
You, OTOH, reject the plane reading of Scripture, which is why it's so hard for you believe that man has existed from the very beginning of creation. So you change the meaning of what Jesus said and make it fit. It's simply a rejection of Christ's words.
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