GES New Assault on "the Christ"

(Titus 2:13) "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." I am informed that the reading is more accurately translated "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ" Is this correct? This is how the New International version renders it and also the New King James version.

 

With all respect, I believe you are confusing a few issues, here. The first is an alleged difference between some supposed "easy-believe-ism", whatever anything like that is supposed to mean, and some supposed "real, true, genuine faith", again whatever that, or some similar wordings, is supposed to mean. I made no such distinction in my posts, by contrast.

The Bible knows nothing of any such distinction, aside from "believe" and "believe not". That seems a pretty clear dividing line, to me. "Object of faith", and "quality of faith", are not parallels, in any sense, and the analysis of any such "quality of faith" is entirely subjective, and arbitrary.

The second is confuting a "declaration of faith" with faith, itself, and the object of faith. That object of faith,, as revealed to us today, at least, must be the "Lord Jesus Christ", the second person of the Triune Godhead, who is the one crucified for our sins, and was resurrected, the God-man, as I see it, said in a nutshell. Does one have to know all these details, in order to be saved, which is the real question of these (and similar) threads? Not IMO. Can one be saved who 'denies' any of the central truths, given here. Again, not IMO. CAn one be saved in ignorance of some, if not all, of these varied implications? Yes, IMO. We are saved by grace, through faith; we are not saved by theology. I note that Jesus did not give many details when he addressed some. By contrast, he gave some details concerning his future crucifixion, to Nicodemus. And He talked about water, and indirectly said he was Messiah, to the woman at Sychar. These two messages were not the same, yet we find, I believe, that both led to a saving faith. Certainly, the woman at the well was saved at that time. But it is not stated when Nicodemus actually believed, or even if he did, but which I think he did at some point, as he was implied to be a disciple at the time of the crucifixion of the Lord.

Third, it is a question of "whom" our faith is in, not "what" we have believed.

The best known passage in the entire Bible, probably, puts it this way, in context. And I'll add a cooule of other passages.

Just so I am clear. We are not saved by faith that has no object. We are saved by faith in Christ. Nor do we "just believe", again with no definition of whom or what be believe. That would be a totally "false faith". We are saved by believing in Jesus Christ, as I said, or at least tried to say, earlier in the post.

Gotta' run.

Ed

 

It just occurred to me that Calvinists don't have to deal with this issue. Calvinists can't have the wrong kind of faith, no matter how you want to define it, since their faith originates with God, and God does it right every time.

 

Unfortunately you didn't quote everything I said. The verse I quoted qualified what I had said

I didn't mention anything about easy believism. What I did say though was that some should read the lives of some of the great Christians, the men and women of faith. They did not come to faith that easily. But some spent years under conviction of sin before they experienced the joy of sins forgiven.

 

If I, because of the format, didn't quote everything you said, as I hit reply, I'm sorry that that had the effect of causing a misquote, if it, in fact, did.

But you in fact, mentioned something about 'easily believing', or at least, that is how I took it. So I will quote the last half of your post #18, which is where this was said, and where I'm attempting to present a different POV, which is more in line with what I believe, at least.

I'll say up front, if you do not see what "Lordship Salvation" teaches, you will probably not get this, at all, or else you will probably disagree with it completely. (I did mention 'discipleship' but not "Lordship Salvation" in my post #19.) Now, from post #18 I'll note the Sentences where I am concerned with what you are saying, in bold.

So far we are agreed.

I am not sure I am willing to go exactly there, even while agreeing with the previous sentence, as I did. I would say there is a difference between "denying" that Jesus is both God and man, and perhaps not knowing about His Deity, per se. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the nobleman at Capernaum, whose son was healed, in John 4:46-53 had any indication that Jesus was God in the flesh, yet it says, after his son was healed, "And he himself believed, and his whole household." (Jn. 4:53b - NKJV) Does this remind you of a certain Philippian jailer, perchance? (Ac. 16:23-34) Uh' did the nobleman believe, in any different way than did the jailer? "and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household." (Ac. 16:34b - NKJV) The jailer was told to 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and he would be saved'; the nobleman was told no such thing, that I see. The point I am making is this. It does not appear that there is a specific formula given, even by the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Scriptures, as to exactly how much information, if you will, one has to have. Or one can know about the Deity, before knowing that Jesus was that Deity, as did Saul, on the road to Damascus. "Who are you, Lord?" was the question Saul asked. He did not question the Deity of the Lord at all, but had apparently not connected it with the man, Christ Jesus, as of yet. While I do not believe one can be saved while denying the deity of Christ, neither do I think one can be saved while denying the humanity of Christ, either. (Either one would be presenting a "false Christ", and one is no more or no less error, than is the other.) Paul's statement about the Mediator being "'the man, Christ Jesus' who gave Himself a ransom..." tends to confirm this, as well.

Now we are getting into salvation by 'theology', IMO. While this is certainly true as to what will happen in 'every knee bowing and every tongues confessing...', I do not recall ever using this in any witnessing situation, simply because this is more information than I think is needed. It is one thing to rightfully, IMO, say that one cannot be saved while denying the Deity of Christ. It is another thing entirely to 'demand' a person to understand the implications of this verse of Scripture. For it has to do with the entire created heavenly order, and in fact, the entire creation of all the earth ("every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;"), and refers, IMO, to a future event, at the judgment(s). It is not necessary to understadn biblical eschatology to this degree, in order to be saved. If it were, I doubt any would be saved. God purposely has kept it simple, so that even a little child can "come unto Christ." This would keep most able theologians out of the kingdom of God, if carried to its logical end.

So it should be 'harder' to believe? I don't get this anywhere in Scripture.

I fully admit to not understanding everything that I would like, and I also fully admit there are passages that give most of us problems with interpretation. This chapter even gave the hearers problems. But Jesus and John did make a distinction between 'believing' and 'discipleship', as even the verse just before, and the verse you cited show. However, the dying in one's sins, is stated to be because of not believing that Jesus is I AM, (Jn. 8:24) and not as the result of being one who did not "abide" as a disciple. (Jn. 8:32) And exactly where does Scripture say anywhere, that it is necessary to be one that "struggled for years" before declaring themselves to be believers? I have had my share off doubts, early on, I am sure. Most all of us could say we've had some, as well, from my experience with others. If Thomas, and John the Baptist could doubt; Peter could deny the Lord; Peter could be a hypocrite in Galatia; and Barnabas could be deceived by Peter's hypocracy, what kind of ego would it take for me to think this could never happen to me? That is after all, only three Apostles and the Forerunner, who was "filled with the Holy Spirit" from out of his mother's womb.

Where does Scripture say that "we" are the one to "search the heart", or that this "heart searching" is required to believe, and be saved? I know Scripture tells us several times that the Tri-une God searches our hearts, described as the LORD (I Chr. 28:9; Jer. 17:10); God (Ps. 44:21; 139:23); Jesus (Rev. 2:23); and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:27). And "to become a believer" is not "a question of declaring your faith in Christ" at all. Rather, it is a question of believe/faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, for our salvation. That, and that alone, is the determining factor in one's getting saved, on our end. God did all his part, already, from before the day of Adam through eternity future. From before the foundation of the world when the Lamb was slain (Rev. 13:8) in God's eyes, through eternity in the future, when He shows forth the exceeding riches of His grace. (Eph. 2:7) But one can be saved, yet afraid, and not make this "declaration", as I read Scripture. Joseph of Arimathea was such an individual. (Jn. 19:38)

And we are back to where we started, for once again, we are agreed here. I guess we agree on the Alpha and the Omega :thumbs:, even if we do have differences from the Beta through the Psi. :laugh:

It's late, and I'm whipped, and I will not proof-read this as I usually do, so please forgive any typos. Thanks.

Ed

 

Actually, a stupid Triple post, due to the computer not functioning properly, tonight.

 

Yes, probably you are right. I rather think the Lord is more gracious where our imperfect knowledge is concerned than many of us would like to believe. Perhaps I was wrong in saying that a person was not saved just because he could not see that Jesus was both God and man at the time of their conversion. Our Lord was very gracious and tender towards me at the time of my conversion as he opened my heart towards the gospel and still is of course.
I've always been conscious of the fact that His people can be quite unkind towards those who believe the gospel and receive the message in simple terms, We sometimes expect too much from new converts. So often many of us forget that the gospel is a message of salvation and of love and that Christ came into the world, not to condemn it, but to save it. What is that verse that in Isaiah? "A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth." Words that I should remember more when dealing with those who are young in the faith.

 

Gracious words, and a good point, especially to and for little children. And 'little children' is exactly the way John describes believers in nine places in I John. Jesus and Paul each spoke this phrase, as well. Sometimes all of us tend to forget that physical age does not necessarily correlate exactly with spiritual age, I think.

Ed

 

To all: If you want to know what John MacArthur teaches concerning Lordship Salvation, please go directly to his website:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/2439

Please notice the the foundations of beliefs which clearly state "no prepatory work" is required for salvation and that we are "saved by grace through faith".

Even though J.Mac makes these doctrines clear, some continue to distort his teachings.

peace to you allraying:

 

I didn't see anything emotional about canady's reply to your post. There is nothing emotional about my reply. Did you check out the link canady provided? This link is from JM himself, and states what he really believes. You have been provided this information before. It seems that when this is brought to you attention, you are the one who becomes emotional and even resort to calling other brothers in Christ a liar. Remember?

 

The “Crossless” gospel is as far from biblical orthodoxy at its end of the theological pendulum swing as John MacArthur's Lordship Salvation is from its end.

Lou , to continually propound your myth that John MacArthur's teachings are far from biblical orthodoxy is is a very sinful characterization on your part . Tell that to the multitudes of folks who have come to a saving knowledge of the LORD Jesus Christ through his ministry that they have been deceived . Tell the millions of Christians who have been led to a deeper walk with the LORD through MacArthur's ministry of biblical exposition that they have been duped . More importantly , stand in silence before the throne of God on Judgment day and be held accountable for your idle speech .

 

May the LORD grant John MacArthur continued years preaching the foolishness of the Gospel .