grahame said:
Unfortunately you didn't quote everything I said. The verse I quoted qualified what I had said I didn't mention anything about easy believism. What I did say though was that some should read the lives of some of the great Christians, the men and women of faith. They did not come to faith that easily. But some spent years under conviction of sin before they experienced the joy of sins forgiven.
If I, because of the format, didn't quote everything you said, as I hit reply, I'm sorry that that had the effect of causing a misquote, if it, in fact, did.
But you in fact, mentioned something about 'easily believing', or at least, that is how I took it. So I will quote the last half of your post #18, which is where this was said, and where I'm attempting to present a different POV, which is more in line with what I believe, at least.
I'll say up front, if you do not see what "Lordship Salvation" teaches, you will probably not get this, at all, or else you will probably disagree with it completely. (I did mention 'discipleship' but not "Lordship Salvation" in my post #19.) Now, from post #18 I'll note the Sentences where I am concerned with what you are saying, in bold.
grahame said:
But all these are as I have said elementary to the gospel teaching. And to deny that Jesus is both God and man is to deny that he is Lord and saviour.
So far we are agreed.
Therefore I said that if someone believed that Jesus was only a good man at time of their conversion, then they did not believe on the Christ who washed them from their sins.
I am not sure I am willing to go exactly there, even while agreeing with the previous sentence, as I did. I would say there is a difference between "denying" that Jesus is both God and man, and perhaps not knowing about His Deity,
per se. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the nobleman at Capernaum, whose son was healed, in John 4:46-53 had any indication that Jesus was God in the flesh, yet it says, after his son was healed, "And he himself believed, and his whole household." (Jn. 4:53
b - NKJV) Does this remind you of a certain Philippian jailer, perchance? (Ac. 16:23-34) Uh' did the nobleman believe, in any different way than did the jailer? "and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household." (Ac. 16:34
b - NKJV) The jailer was told to 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and he would be saved'; the nobleman was told no such thing, that I see. The point I am making is this. It does not appear that there is a specific formula given, even by the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Scriptures, as to exactly how much information, if you will, one has to have. Or one can know about the Deity, before knowing that Jesus was that Deity, as did Saul, on the road to Damascus. "Who are you, Lord?" was the question Saul asked. He did not question the Deity of the Lord at all, but had apparently not connected it with the man, Christ Jesus, as of yet. While I do not believe one can be saved while denying the deity of Christ, neither do I think one can be saved while denying the humanity of Christ, either. (Either one would be presenting a "false Christ", and one is no more or no less error, than is the other.) Paul's statement about the Mediator being "'the man, Christ Jesus' who gave Himself a ransom..." tends to confirm this, as well.
Neither did they believe that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Now we are getting into salvation by 'theology', IMO. While this is certainly true as to what will happen in 'every knee bowing and every tongues confessing...', I do not recall ever using this in any witnessing situation, simply because this is more information than I think is needed. It is one thing to rightfully, IMO, say that one cannot be saved while denying the Deity of Christ. It is another thing entirely to 'demand' a person to understand the implications of this verse of Scripture. For it has to do with the entire created heavenly order, and in fact, the entire creation of all the earth ("every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;"), and refers, IMO, to a future event, at the judgment(s). It is not necessary to understadn biblical eschatology to this degree, in order to be saved. If it were, I doubt any would be saved. God purposely has kept it simple, so that even a little child can "come unto Christ." This would keep most able theologians out of the kingdom of God, if carried to its logical end.
I think people today too easily become believers. Take a look at the NT again.
So it should be 'harder' to believe? I don't get this anywhere in Scripture.
Look at this verse here: Quote:
John 8:31-32) "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed, d ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Read the whole of that chapter and you'll find some interesting things about some who profess to believe in Jesus, yet when questioned about certain things about him, find that they do not believe after all. Read about some of the great Christians and their conversions and you will see that many of them struggled for years before declaring themselves to be believers.
I fully admit to not understanding everything that I would like, and I also fully admit there are passages that give most of us problems with interpretation. This chapter even gave the hearers problems. But Jesus and John did make a distinction between 'believing' and 'discipleship', as even the verse just before, and the verse you cited show. However, the dying in one's sins, is stated to be because of
not believing that Jesus is I AM, (Jn. 8:24) and
not as the result of being one who did
not "
abide" as a disciple. (Jn. 8:32) And exactly where does Scripture say anywhere, that it is necessary to be one that "struggled for years" before declaring themselves to be believers? I have had my share off doubts, early on, I am sure. Most all of us could say we've had some, as well, from my experience with others. If Thomas, and John the Baptist could doubt; Peter could deny the Lord; Peter could be a hypocrite in Galatia; and Barnabas could be deceived by Peter's hypocracy, what kind of ego would it take for me to think this could never happen to me? That is after all, only three Apostles and the Forerunner, who was "filled with the Holy Spirit" from out of his mother's womb.
I don't find much of this searching of heart today. To become a believer is not just a question of declaring your faith in Christ.
Where does Scripture say that "we" are the one to "search the heart", or that this "heart searching" is required to believe, and be saved? I know Scripture tells us several times that the Tri-une God searches our hearts, described as the LORD (I Chr. 28:9; Jer. 17:10); God (Ps. 44:21; 139:23); Jesus (Rev. 2:23); and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:27). And "to become a believer" is not "a question of declaring your faith in Christ" at all. Rather, it is a question of believe/faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, for our salvation. That, and that alone, is the determining factor in one's getting saved, on our end. God did all his part, already, from before the day of Adam through eternity future. From before the foundation of the world when the Lamb was slain (Rev. 13:8) in God's eyes, through eternity in the future, when He shows forth the exceeding riches of His grace. (Eph. 2:7) But one can be saved, yet afraid, and not make this "declaration", as I read Scripture. Joseph of Arimathea was such an individual. (Jn. 19:38)
But when you make that declaration you declare that you believe in his person and his work on the cross and that his blood can make the foulest clean. What person but a man who was God could do such a thing? The Christian gospel has always declared Christ to be none other than the Son of the living God. The God man who gave his life for his people, whose blood will wash away all sin.
And we are back to where we started, for once again, we are agreed here. I guess we agree on the Alpha and the Omega :thumbs:, even if we do have differences from the Beta through the Psi. :laugh:
It's late, and I'm whipped, and I will not proof-read this as I usually do, so please forgive any typos. Thanks.
Ed
