Getting your theology from the Bible is worthless

[preachinjesus]

Sort of getting this conversation a little too late....but

Nobody truly gets their theology from the "Bible alone" it isn't possible. Anytime you read the biblical text you are standing on the shoulders of the many generations of theologians, exegetes, textual critics, etc, etc, etc.

Now I do believe one should always submit their theological formation and conclusions under the authority of Scripture.

The point is more nuanced than the OP presents it IMHO.

 

[preacher4truth]

Sort of getting this conversation a little too late....but

Nobody truly gets their theology from the "Bible alone" it isn't possible. Anytime you read the biblical text you are standing on the shoulders of the many generations of theologians, exegetes, textual critics, etc, etc, etc.

Now I do believe one should always submit their theological formation and conclusions under the authority of Scripture.

The point is more nuanced than the OP presents it IMHO.

Yep. :thumbsup:

All the jockeying about being a "Bible Onlyist" is nonsense, untruthful, and prideful.

 

[Robert Snow]

There is no doubt that Luke 2427 and P4T are both being distinguish. They laud the need for pastors and teachers to help us in understanding the truth, yet they strategically leave out the heart of their argument. I believe it is evident after looking at most of their postings concerning these types of issues that they would only believe that we should look to the reformed theologians they look to.

I doubt they would be in agreement with our looking to pastors for guidance if the pastors we looked at were staunchly against Calvinism. If you think I am wrong, look at P4T's opinion of Adrian Rogers.

It looks to me like this is a back-handed way of pointing us to men like Calvin, Spurgeon and the like.

 

[preacher4truth]

There is no doubt that Luke 2427 and P4T are both being distinguish. They laud the need for pastors and teachers to help us in understanding the truth, yet they strategically leave out the heart of their argument. I believe it is evident after looking at most of their postings concerning these types of issues that they would only believe that we should look to the reformed theologians they look to.

I doubt they would be in agreement with our looking to pastors for guidance if the pastors we looked at were staunchly against Calvinism. If you think I am wrong, look at P4T's opinion of Adrian Rogers.

It looks to me like this is a back-handed way of pointing us to men like Calvin, Spurgeon and the like.

For one, I do not, nor have I ever espoused anyone only look to reformed theologians. This is a false accusation that is unfounded.

Factually, I also employ those who are non-cal. In addition to this, I've never pointed any person to Calvin, nor to Spurgeon. These are merely accusations of non-cals on their onslaught and presupposed campaign that is factually unfounded.

If I can point any person any place, it is to the Gospel, and to the Cross of Christ, and that He and He alone saves.

My opinion of Rogers stands, I am no follower of any man, no matter how popular, nor do I get much from him, but to each his own. Adrian leaves something to be desired (yet when first saved I enjoyed him somewhat) and his sermons, although they are only fair topically, they fail miserably in doctrine, in exposition, and also fail theologically.

If your acid test is "What do I think of Rogers?" then you're a follower of a man, namely Adrian Rogers, and this is an earmark of carnality proven in Scripture. You're sitting there thinking I've endorsed Calvin and others to follow Him (by your very post) well, provide proof. I've never done this, nor will I.

None of the accusations or assumptions in this response to which I respond stand, they are simply unfounded, accusatory, and presupposed.

I request the author to whom I respond here supply proofs of his accusations, especially that I direct others only to reformed works, or, as a believer himself, at the very least, apologize for the presuppositions and accusations against me that are unfounded.

- Peace

 

[Luke2427]

You are a contradiction. If the Bible is sufficient, then we don't NEED other people. I am not against utilizing other people's teaching, but we don't NEED it. The Bible is sufficient alone.

It is not a contradiction to say that the Scripture is perfectly sufficient but that a lone man trying to interpret it in a vacuum is terribly insufficient.

That is no contradiction at all.

 

[preachinjesus]

Unless you can read Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic you are using something other than the Bible to understand your theology.

If you can read Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic you are using knowledge other than the Bible to get your theology.

Simple fact of the matter is that while the Bible is authoritative for testing our theology, it isn't a text understood without presuppositions. No one encounters the biblical text without some knowledge already preexisting. That's okay. Just don't walk around with spiritual pride and say the Bible is your "only source" for theology when in fact the version you're reading is reliant on theology to execute its understanding.

 

[JesusFan]

So you don't believe the Bible is sufficient?

It IS indeed complete and ONLY revelation from God for us today...

its just that we need to have more than "just" the Bible/HS/and me in the process of getting our doctrines, also requires listening to/reading from gifted teachers/pastors/theologians, and make sure that what wear are coming up with from the Bible is NOT some new and novel doctrines, but fits within bounds of sound orthodoxy!

 

[JesusFan]

I'm late to this thread, but I want to follow up on Iconoclast's recent post.

"And He (God) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-12).

God established in his churches men with different gifts. One is a pastor-teacher. By definition a pastor is a teacher. And Paul clearly states the purpose: for the edifying of the body of Christ.

Paul suggests that these men have a spiritual gift from the Holy Spirit. That means they are necessary to the building up of the body. To suggest that we do not need them, that all we need is the Bible alone, is to deny what Paul wrote.

I'm curious. How many of us here on the BB have developed our doctrines and our practices from scripture alone? How many have never read the writings of any theologian? How many of us can say that we've never been influenced by any preacher or teacher?

How many of us will skip Sunday school or the preaching service, since we've heard it all before? Or how many of us will skip those events because we don't want to be influenced by anybody else, because they're mere humans and not God?

Now, to be sure, over the last 50 years, I have changed my beliefs. I came to the conclusion that what I had been taught was not correct. But it was because I tested the scriptures against what he taught.

For instance, my first instruction on eschatology was from a dispensational viewpoint. As the years passed, however, I began to test that view. I couldn't find a scripture verse to support it. So I abandoned that view.

Today, I am a historical pre-mil. I emphasize that's what I am today. I may not be tomorrow.

Think that most cults and false doctrines that creep into the church caused by JUST doing the Bible and me, and "listening" to spirits, who are NOT the HS!

The good thing about getting helped by godly teachers/pastors/theologians is that we are not forced to novel doctrines, as they can check our views, in order to keep us grounded into Christian orthodoxy!

IF we think that we have come upon some 'hidden truth" that no one else saw past 2000.00 years while studying the bible, pretty ggod sign that you just might be becoming a heretic!

 

[Don]

It IS indeed complete and ONLY revelation from God for us today...

its just that we need to have more than "just" the Bible/HS/and me in the process of getting our doctrines, also requires listening to/reading from gifted teachers/pastors/theologians, and make sure that what wear are coming up with from the Bible is NOT some new and novel doctrines, but fits within bounds of sound orthodoxy!

If we need "more than just the Bible/HS," then the Bible is not, by definition, sufficient.

I think this may be an appropriate analogy: I can live on chili, and be happy. But I appreciate greatly once in a while getting chicken primavera, and/or barbecue steak and roasted corn, and/or my wife's chicken enchiladas. Such things give me a greater appreciation for food in general, and even make the chili of more value when I go back to it.

I can get all I need from the bible. I can get more by listening to/reading from gifted teachers/pastors/theologians.

But to say that I do not fully understand the doctrines of the bible if I don't use anything other than the bible, is to say that the bible itself is not sufficient.

 

[JesusFan]

If we need "more than just the Bible/HS," then the Bible is not, by definition, sufficient.

I think this may be an appropriate analogy: I can live on chili, and be happy. But I appreciate greatly once in a while getting chicken primavera, and/or barbecue steak and roasted corn, and/or my wife's chicken enchiladas. Such things give me a greater appreciation for food in general, and even make the chili of more value when I go back to it.

I can get all I need from the bible. I can get more by listening to/reading from gifted teachers/pastors/theologians.

But to say that I do not fully understand the doctrines of the bible if I don't use anything other than the bible, is to say that the bible itself is not sufficient.

Again, the Bible is FULLY sufficient to me as the ONLY true complete infallible revelation of God, BUT my personal interpretation/understanding of its doctrines may be "faulty", and that is where we need to check with other trusted sources/tools etc!

 

[Amy.G]

Again, the Bible is FULLY sufficient to me as the ONLY true complete infallible revelation of God, BUT my personal interpretation/understanding of its doctrines may be "faulty", and that is where we need to check with other trusted sources/tools etc!

I agree. The key word is "trusted". We have to use the discernment God has given us to "test the spirits". God has given the church teachers which He has gifted with the ability to interpret scripture. But even they can make mistakes since they are in the flesh just as we all are. So we do our homework and test the teachers against God's word which is our standard. No matter who the teacher is, we must still be Bereans and find out if "these things are so".
But the bible reigns supreme as our ultimate authority.
Now if we do this with a sincere heart and a desire for truth, relying on the Holy Spirit, God will lead us into all truth.
The problem comes because we all too often rely on our own wisdom.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree. The key word is "trusted". We have to use the discernment God has given us to "test the spirits". God has given the church teachers which He has gifted with the ability to interpret scripture. But even they can make mistakes since they are in the flesh just as we all are. So we do our homework and test the teachers against God's word which is our standard. No matter who the teacher is, we must still be Bereans and find out if "these things are so".
But the bible reigns supreme as our ultimate authority.
Now if we do this with a sincere heart and a desire for truth, relying on the Holy Spirit, God will lead us into all truth.
The problem comes because we all too often rely on our own wisdom.

That's excellent Amy. I could not agree more.

You nailed it here.

Matt has failed to make his argument stand the test of scrutiny.

I want to say this again.

There is NOTHING in the realm of religion more DANGEROUS and DAMNABLE than this attitude that Matt, Winman, Robert Snow and others espouse concerning biblical interpretation.

When ANYONE comes to you saying that they don't need any man to help them to properly interpret the Scripture because God speaks to them privately- you mark that person and avoid them. They are deadly. They need to be resisted until they humble themselves and repent of such arrogance and ignorance. We are the BODY of CHRIST and we do nothing alone in a vacuum as individuals- and that most CERTAINLY applies to interpreting the Bible. We are accountable to the Body of Christ for our hermeneutics. That includes that very important part of the Body of Christ that has occupied nearly two thousand years of history before us.

This EXACT same attitude which Matt is promoting is what has given us United Pentecostalism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Rob Bell, Joel Osteen and the list goes on and on and on and on...

 

[preacher4truth]

That's excellent Amy. I could not agree more.

You nailed it here.

Matt has failed to make his argument stand the test of scrutiny.

I want to say this again.

There is NOTHING in the realm of religion more DANGEROUS and DAMNABLE than this attitude that Matt, Winman, Robert Snow and others espouse concerning biblical interpretation.

When ANYONE comes to you saying that they don't need any man to help them to properly interpret the Scripture because God speaks to them privately- you mark that person and avoid them. They are deadly. They need to be resisted until they humble themselves and repent of such arrogance and ignorance. We are the BODY of CHRIST and we do nothing alone in a vacuum as individuals- and that most CERTAINLY applies to interpreting the Bible. We are accountable to the Body of Christ for our hermeneutics. That includes that very important part of the Body of Christ that has occupied nearly two thousand years of history before us.

This EXACT same attitude which Matt is promoting is what has given us United Pentecostalism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Rob Bell, Joel Osteen and the list goes on and on and on and on...

Take note that when a true believer gets saved, they want to know more and more about the Bible, and lend themselves to their appointed teachers to help them accomplish this task. They show great humility and teachability.

How each of the aforementioned arrived on this road of "self-teacher," "need no man" (which is rejecting the soundness within the church of God gifting men to teach them) "all I need is Bible" is actually quite frightening and is filled with arrogancy and hypocrisy. I highly doubt such began on this road, but unfortunately they have gotten off the good road and have arrived on this one here. Such would have been rejected or excommunicated from the first century church for such a selfish haughty prating attitude. Imagine them telling the apostles, or the teachers appointed by the apostles, or those within the churches appointed by the churches to teach, that they don't need them, all they need is the "Bible." This is exactly what they are doing today here and now. It's what we call insubordinance which is synonymous with egotism. This attitude is dangerous and is to be rejected and avoided.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

First off, I see no where I've stated exactly what you put in quotations. This is you, once again, attempting to fantasticalize what someone said, taking great liberty to do so, and doing so out of context. Your wording, which is not my wording, attempts to make it sound like simply using the Bible in itself will automatically lead a person into error. That's not what I've implied nor what I have stated.

You're getting closer but are still far away, and there is context to what I've said, and I will stand by what I've said in its context. This is what you've also attempted on Luke2427; taking his statements out of context which is the basis of your OP/thread title here.

Does using the Bible only lead to error Matt? Ever?

It certainly does. There is no need to live in a pretend world where unregenerate man reads the Bible and "expounds" what he thinks it means and will not be in error. Also, those who claim to be saved fall into the same errors of interpretation, and misapply and misinterpret Scriptures often. They too are in error, and it may be in a worse case than those unregenerate who do the same. The Bible is not a "magic book." The saved person doing so is often times filled with pride concerning how "holy" and "spiritual" they are for being "Bible Only." What utter arrogance to state such a position concerning ones self. It is time for a person like this to grow up and own up.

So let's do this, if that is the case that using the Bible Only never leads one into error. We should burn and utterly destroy all commentaries, sermons, theological works and the like. Then we can all just be reprogrammed in our memories to remember none of what we've learned. Then like magic, we all pick up a Bible and come to the same exact conclusions, interpretations, author intent, context, as every one else. We all are lead only into to truthful interpretations and never are we in error.

The above is as absurd as one who believes using the Bible only never leads to error.

Bible Only does lead to error, it is seen on the BB as a matter of fact.

Many erroneous views of passages via proof-texting, ignorance, Spiritual pride (which is EXACTLY what "I'm a Bible Only!" person is experiencing). They're saying they need no man to teach them, when in fact God tells us He gave us teachers to help us.

To believe, state, and teach that using the Bible Only won't lead you into error is to have ones head buried in the sand.

I'm very late to this thread, but AMEN to this! Good stuff:thumbsup:

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Mary Baker Eddy was a Bible only person, and I found out yesterday that, before she died, she thought she was the woman in Rev 12, and she called herself a second coming of Christ!

I had a man in my Church that was a "All I ever need is the KJV Bible and the Holy Ghost" person. He couldn't stand it when I would quote from another source! He finally got mad and left, you know why? He didn't believe in foreknowledge!:laugh: [some Bible only person, huh?] People that say things like that are full of pride and self righteousness....God bless