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Gifts of the Spirit have ceased?????????
- Thread starter ONENESS
- Start date
You are right, I can't see the Spirit of God telling you do something that goes against something he empowered the apostle Paul to write. You didn't really answer my question now did you?
Do you belive the Spirit of God compels you to do things that violate the very Words he inspired the apostle Paul to write?
A simple yes or no will do.
The Word was given to us as a guide. The word was written by men empowered by the Holy Spirit. One sure fire way to tell if what you are doing is from God or not is to put it to the test against God's Word. If what you do breaks that Word (speaking in tongues without an intrepreter, more then 2 or 3 speaking at all and many at the same time, women speaking in tongues, speaking a tongue that is not a human language) then I guarantee you it is NOT from God.
You are the one who won't accept what the Word of God says, you are the one blinded to the truth because your experience feels too good to care. We are told to test the spirits and I promise you the Spirit of God would not compel you to disobey His command!
You admitted you don't understand it now go a step further. Find understanding. You must either prove that:
1. The Spirit of God does allow you to disobey the written words he inspired Paul to write
2. The Spirit of God would not tell you to disobey the written words He inspired Paul to write.
Which is it and do you have any other proof besides your own experience?
You say that you read the Word daily and consider it to be the very Word of God but in this response to my question you are trying to tell us that your experience carrys more weight then the words of Paul that the Holy Spirit inspired him to write.
Again I ask:
Do you belive the Spirit of God compels you to do things that violate the very Words he inspired the apostle Paul to write?
A simple yes or no will do.
~Lorelei
You are right, I can't see the Spirit of God telling you do something that goes against something he empowered the apostle Paul to write. You didn't really answer my question now did you?
Do you belive the Spirit of God compels you to do things that violate the very Words he inspired the apostle Paul to write?
A simple yes or no will do.
The Word was given to us as a guide. The word was written by men empowered by the Holy Spirit. One sure fire way to tell if what you are doing is from God or not is to put it to the test against God's Word. If what you do breaks that Word (speaking in tongues without an intrepreter, more then 2 or 3 speaking at all and many at the same time, women speaking in tongues, speaking a tongue that is not a human language) then I guarantee you it is NOT from God.
You are the one who won't accept what the Word of God says, you are the one blinded to the truth because your experience feels too good to care. We are told to test the spirits and I promise you the Spirit of God would not compel you to disobey His command!
You admitted you don't understand it now go a step further. Find understanding. You must either prove that:
1. The Spirit of God does allow you to disobey the written words he inspired Paul to write
2. The Spirit of God would not tell you to disobey the written words He inspired Paul to write.
Which is it and do you have any other proof besides your own experience?
You say that you read the Word daily and consider it to be the very Word of God but in this response to my question you are trying to tell us that your experience carrys more weight then the words of Paul that the Holy Spirit inspired him to write.
Again I ask:
Do you belive the Spirit of God compels you to do things that violate the very Words he inspired the apostle Paul to write?
A simple yes or no will do.
~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]NOPE: but we have a diffrent view of why Paul was saying that to that particualr churlch.
But earlier you said this:
So which is it, do you not know and not understand why the Spirit has you violate the rules He led Paul to write or do you disagree with Paul?
If you do disagree, please tell me what you think Paul meant. If he didn't mean what he said, he must have meant something. Let me guess, you don't know, but you still refuse to see that the Word of God is greater then your experience?
Remember closely the words of Paul at the end of the very chapter in question.
Do you acknowledge that what he wrote is the Lord's command or not?
~Lorelei
But earlier you said this:
So which is it, do you not know and not understand why the Spirit has you violate the rules He led Paul to write or do you disagree with Paul?
If you do disagree, please tell me what you think Paul meant. If he didn't mean what he said, he must have meant something. Let me guess, you don't know, but you still refuse to see that the Word of God is greater then your experience?
Remember closely the words of Paul at the end of the very chapter in question.
Do you acknowledge that what he wrote is the Lord's command or not?
~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]All I am saying is that Maybe we have a diffrent view of the Scripture. For now I will trust my pastor. I believe that the Church at that time was having a lot of problems. Nothing was in order. Paul wrote them a letter telling them to calm down. I am just giveing you a short view so dont get disapointed on me.
But maybe that is why they thought Jesus was not the Christ. Jesus did things on the Sabbath. But in accordance to the Law You were not suppose to. So would God have gone against something that he commanded? No you just have to understand a bit more than face value.
See, that is the problem, you are trusting your pastor, not the Word of God. I am not asking you to trust me and I am not trusting in what I have been taught, I am believing what the Bible says. You must choose whom to believe, a man, or God.
So you don't believe that the whole Bible is relevant to us today? Just because this church was bad, we shouldn't all worship in the same orderly fashion that Paul told them to?
If this was only relevant to that church then all the letters were only relevant to those churches. Women can be preachers for only that church needed to stop having women preach because those women were misbehaving.
And what about Acts, if the epistles mean nothing why does Acts? There is significant evidence to show the historical transformation of the church and why the experience for the apostles at that time were different then ours but you won't even recognize that, yet you easily toss aside the epistles as "that was for them only"?
You either believe the Bible is relevant for us today or you don't. You either believe all of it or none of it. Who gets to pick and choose? Your pastor???
God's Word said to "Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy". Jesus never broke God's command, he broke the commands written by men that were added to God's laws. You, however, are keeping the commands of man and breaking the commands of God, there is a huge difference in the two.
~Lorelei
See, that is the problem, you are trusting your pastor, not the Word of God. I am not asking you to trust me and I am not trusting in what I have been taught, I am believing what the Bible says. You must choose whom to believe, a man, or God.
So you don't believe that the whole Bible is relevant to us today? Just because this church was bad, we shouldn't all worship in the same orderly fashion that Paul told them to?
If this was only relevant to that church then all the letters were only relevant to those churches. Women can be preachers for only that church needed to stop having women preach because those women were misbehaving.
And what about Acts, if the epistles mean nothing why does Acts? There is significant evidence to show the historical transformation of the church and why the experience for the apostles at that time were different then ours but you won't even recognize that, yet you easily toss aside the epistles as "that was for them only"?
You either believe the Bible is relevant for us today or you don't. You either believe all of it or none of it. Who gets to pick and choose? Your pastor???
God's Word said to "Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy". Jesus never broke God's command, he broke the commands written by men that were added to God's laws. You, however, are keeping the commands of man and breaking the commands of God, there is a huge difference in the two.
~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Oh well, at least i know who he is.
Sings I KNOW JESUS IS THE FATHER, I KNOW JESUS IS THE SON, I KNOW JESUS IS THE HOLY GHOST AND ALL THESE THREE ARE ONE, LET ME TELL YOU JESUS IS, HES THE ROCK OF ALL AGES HES THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA HES MY HEVANILY FATHER. HES THE BEGINNING AND THE END HE IS MUCH MORE THAN THIS MY FRIENS, HES THE SON OF MAN HES COMEING BACK AGAIN.
THE JEWS WERE TALKING TO JESUS AND THEY SAID JUST WHO ARE YOU. YOU CLAIM TO BE THE CHRIST AND YOUR GREATER THAN ABRAHAM TOO. WELL JESUS SAID EVERYTHING YOU SAID IS TRUE IM GREATER THAN ABRAHAM AND BEFORE THERE WAS AN ABRAHAM I AM THE GREAT I AM
, LET ME TELL YOU JESUS IS, HES THE ROCK OF ALL AGES HES THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA HES MY HEVANILY FATHER. HES THE BEGINNING AND THE END HE IS MUCH MORE THAN THIS MY FRIENS, HES THE SON OF MAN HES COMEING BACK AGAIN.
MANY PEOPLE TODAY THEY USE HIS NAME BUT IT IS USUALLY IN VAIN NO MATTER HOW HES HELPED THEM TIME AND TIME AGAIN. OH BUT ONE OF THESE DAYS EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS AND EVERY KNEES GOING TO BOW BUT LETS NOT WAIT UNTIL THAT DAY LETS PRAISE THE LORD RIGHT NOW
, LET ME TELL YOU JESUS IS, HES THE ROCK OF ALL AGES HES THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA HES MY HEVANILY FATHER. HES THE BEGINNING AND THE END HE IS MUCH MORE THAN THIS MY FRIENS, HES THE SON OF MAN HES COMEING BACK AGAIN.
MANY PEOPLE TODAY THEY LOVE JESUS BUT THEY DONT KNOW WHO HE IS, THEY PUT HIM SECOND PLACE IN THE GOD HEAD, MAN THEY'VE GOT SOME STRANGE IDEAS, WELL IF JESUS CHRIST CREAETED EVERYTHING AND HAS ALL POWER IM ASKING YOU, IF JESUS CHIST IS LORD OF LORDS HOW CAN HE BE NUMBER TWO.
I KNOW JESUS IS THE FATHER, I KNOW JESUS IS THE SON, I KNOW JESUS IS THE HOLY GHOST AND ALL THESE THREE ARE ONE, LET ME TELL YOU JESUS IS, HES THE ROCK OF ALL AGES HES THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA HES MY HEVANILY FATHER. HES THE BEGINNING AND THE END HE IS MUCH MORE THAN THIS MY FRIENS, HES THE SON OF MAN HES COMEING BACK AGAIN.
[ May 17, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
And that was supposed to prove what? That you sing like somebody stepped on a bullfrog? 
(just kidding)
Seriously though you seem to put for faith in songs and your pastor than in the Bible. From what I have read of your posts about what he teaches the man should be denounced as a false prophet.
(just kidding)Seriously though you seem to put for faith in songs and your pastor than in the Bible. From what I have read of your posts about what he teaches the man should be denounced as a false prophet.
MAN I SING WORSE THAT A FROG.Originally posted by Chemnitz:
And that was supposed to prove what? That you sing like somebody stepped on a bullfrog?
Seriously though you seem to put for faith in songs and your pastor than in the Bible. From what I have read of your posts about what he teaches the man should be denounced as a false prophet.
Nope I do not put all my faith in my pastor, but for what I dont understand I do.
Okay, Oneness' pastor responded to me. However, he didn't answer my question (why is his church openly violating the precepts of orderly conduct outlined in 1 Corinthians 14). I've asked for a more direct answer.
I asked for permission to copy our transactions for all to see; he seems to have forgotten about that request, and hasn't given me permission yet. When (if) he does, I'll be sure to post them in their entirety here.
I asked for permission to copy our transactions for all to see; he seems to have forgotten about that request, and hasn't given me permission yet. When (if) he does, I'll be sure to post them in their entirety here.
My pastor and I were talking this morning, right after our usual Saturday men's prayer meeting, and he related a story of something that happened to him personally.
Said he was invited by a pentecostal friend of his to come and preach at their church; my pastor originally said no, and explained that their beliefs were too different on certain subjects. The man insisted, and assured my pastor that there would be no problems.
Well, my pastor preached, and afterwards, as he and his wife were standing there, the other man got up in the pulpit, and the congregation started singing, and then some of them fell down, and some started speaking in tongues, and a couple started running around. My pastor said he watched this for a few minutes, getting more and more uncomfortable, and finally blurted out as loud as he could, "Lord God, by the blood of your son Jesus, if there's anything here that's not of you, please remove it now!"
The whole congregation went silent. People were still trying to speak, but nothing came out. The people on the floor got up slowly, looking around in confusion. Finally, the pastor of that church tried to get them back into the tongues stuff, but it just wouldn't happen. Someone finally said, Let's sing! and someone else asked, what'll we sing? and my pastor shouted out, "Let's sing an old-fashioned hymn!" They sang "The Old Rugged Cross," and then they dismissed the service.
I don't believe my pastor was ever invited back.
Said he was invited by a pentecostal friend of his to come and preach at their church; my pastor originally said no, and explained that their beliefs were too different on certain subjects. The man insisted, and assured my pastor that there would be no problems.
Well, my pastor preached, and afterwards, as he and his wife were standing there, the other man got up in the pulpit, and the congregation started singing, and then some of them fell down, and some started speaking in tongues, and a couple started running around. My pastor said he watched this for a few minutes, getting more and more uncomfortable, and finally blurted out as loud as he could, "Lord God, by the blood of your son Jesus, if there's anything here that's not of you, please remove it now!"
The whole congregation went silent. People were still trying to speak, but nothing came out. The people on the floor got up slowly, looking around in confusion. Finally, the pastor of that church tried to get them back into the tongues stuff, but it just wouldn't happen. Someone finally said, Let's sing! and someone else asked, what'll we sing? and my pastor shouted out, "Let's sing an old-fashioned hymn!" They sang "The Old Rugged Cross," and then they dismissed the service.
I don't believe my pastor was ever invited back.
Well, Oneness' pastor has responded back, and given permission for me to print what has transpired between us, as long as I keep it in context. In order to "keep it in context" as per his wishes, I'm posting the transcript verbatim from our e-mails.
Y'all feel free to peruse and comment as you see fit, y'hear?
Y'all feel free to peruse and comment as you see fit, y'hear?
From: "Don" <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
To: <Kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Question
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:15:12 -0500
Sir, my name is Don, and I'm an independent fundamental Baptist.
I've been having a conversation with a member of your church, who I prefer to leave unnamed at this time, and I pointed out some scripture to him for which he didn't have an answer.
I advised him to ask you for the answer. His response was that you could tell me better than he could tell me what you told him, and he provided me with your e-mail address.
Here's the background: He announced that he, and the rest of your congregation, prayed out loud together, and he began to speak in tongues,
along with others in the congregation. He admitted that there was no interpretation given.
I want you to know up front, and this gentleman already knows this: I do not forbid to speak in tongues. Unlike many of my IF Baptist brethren, I
haven't made up my mind about the subject of the cessation of the gifts of the spirit. I tend toward a different interpretation of 1 Cor 13 than traditional mainstream--the subject of which is not something intended for discussion through this e-mail.
What I pointed out to this gentleman is that 1 Corinthians 14 forbids what he, and the rest of the congregation, did. I use the explicit instructions for the use of the gift of tongues found in verses 23, 26-28, 33, and 40.
He indicated that he was aware of those verses, and was unable/unsure of how to respond to the fact that your congregation apparently did exactly what the apostle Paul says not to do in those verses.
He and I are hoping you can provide an answer.
With your permission, I'll share your answer with him, and with your permission, a few others as well.
Thanks in advance, and God Bless!
Don
========================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
To: <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: Question
Hello Sir, It is with kindest regards that I answer your e-mail. Also I may add that I sincerely appreciate the spirit in which you put forth in your effort to understand these matters.
To understand why Paul reprimanded his congregation for speaking in tongues you will have to understand a little background and history of the situation. He did not forbid speaking in tongues. On the contrary, it was the absence of balance, and wisdom in the matter that Paul was correcting the Corinthians. Verse 39 forbid not to speak with tongues.
1 Cor. reveals the problems, pressures, and struggles of a church called out of a pagan society. Paul addresses a variety of problems in the lifestyle of the Corinthian church, actions, lawsuits, immorality, questionable practices, abuse of the lords supper, and spiritual gifts.
These are not words of forbidding, but words of discipline, a call to order if you please. For example if all we do when we get together is have the lords supper or feet washing or business meetings or simply just do one of anything it would bring confusion to the sinner visiting.
Paul lets us know that in 1Cor.12:28 there are diversities of tongues. Tongues are used or should I say enjoyed both in worship and prayer (
public and private) diversity of tongues does not in it self refer to different languages. It is also referring to different situations such as worship services or prayer meetings or church in general. Prophesying may be one of the most important rolls of speaking in tongues, however it is not the only purpose. Tongues ( not the interpretation) are a sign to the unbeliever.
1Cor.14: 22. Verse 23 is simply telling us that the definition of having church is not coming together and speaking in tongues to one another all the time, but it is many things that come together for the edifying of the body. Speaking in tongues is just one of many facets that go into a well balanced church service.
Paul said in 1Cor.14: 18, I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all. That's a whole lot of speaking in tongues. Paul is teaching
balance. Paul was the founder of this church, and was giving it spiritual direction. A young man came to a Pentecostal camp meeting, and every service during the preaching all he wanted to do was speak in tongues. The speaker saw the imbalance of the situation. The next service he gave the youngster a pad and pen and asked the young man to take notes of his preaching of which he did. Was he telling the young man not to ever speak in tongues in a service without an interpreter? No, he was simply saying to all things there is a season, climate, atmosphere, or timing, so until you learn to discern the difference let's try taking notes for a while. Paul was simply saying let's focus for a while on some of the things you guys are leaving out.
I think the key to the whole scheme of things is found in Pauls last remarks of chapter 14, let all things be done in an orderly fashion. When
it is time rejoice in tongues rejoice in tongues.
The spirit is a living flowing presence. To perceive it one has to be filled with it. Like Paul I try to teach people to flow with the spirit. Yes there are times ( not all times) that we at Landmark enjoy the total engulfing presence of the Holy Ghost, and as a result the whole
congregation will respond with tongues or a shout or weeping or any number of things that please the Lord.
In acts chapter 10 peter was commissioned by the Lord to preach this New Testament message to the gentiles. In verse 44 while Peter yet spake
these words, ( now note that they understood his words and had no need of an interpreter yet they still spoke in tongues, and were not rebuked) the
Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. How do they know the Holy Ghost fell on all of them? Verse 46, for they heard them speak with tongues. Tongues are not just for prophesying, but they are also a sign to the unbeliever, and evidence of the infilling of Gods greatest gift to mankind, the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:17, If we are truly believers we need the signs. Casting out evil, and speaking in tongues. Shunning the evil and doing the right.
I hope this has helped in some small way. May God smile greatly on your persuite to know things as they should be known.
P.S. thank you for being kind to my friend and brother in the Lord. I can tell from what you told me that he only wants Gods very best for you. If we can help any further don't hesitate to ask.
Pastor Marshburn
=========================================
From: "Don" <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
To: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:55:10 -0500
Sir, you did not indicate whether you wished for this to be shared publicly or not, so out of respect, I won't share it with anyone else until you do.
With all humbleness, I find some problems with your answer. The first one being, you did not address my question, but chose rather to justify
speaking in tongues--which I specifically stated I was not forbidding.
The question was, why is your church violating the guidelines Paul gave in 1 Cor 14:23, 26-28, 33, and 40?
How can you allow your entire congregation to speak in tongues at the same time, and say that it does not violate what Paul was admonishing against in v.23? Or v.27-28?
The second problem I find is your mixing of the gift of tongues and prophecy. 1 Cor 12 specifically says that prophecy is different than
diversities of tongues. What you're indicating is that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that the apostles received in Acts 2, and the gift of tongues referenced in 1 Cor 12. I can find no scripture to back up that supposed difference.
The third problem I see is your reference to Mark 16:17. I disagree with your statement that we "need" signs. Jesus also told a group of people that they were a foolish generations, seeking signs. And if you're going to include tongues as a sign, based on Mark 16:17, you need to also include casting out demons, and taking up serpents, and drinking poison (Mark 16:18). Do you also seek these signs?
===========================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
To: <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Question
#1, My intire congregation does not speak in tongues at the same time, chiefly because not all of them have received the HolyGhost. when several
people at the same time begin to worship God in a gift that he personally has given them are you saying that I should stop what the Lord himself
started.1Thessalonians 5:19, quench not the Spirit.
I did answer your question, maybe not clear enough. The people at corinth wanted to do this all the time, that was out of balance. It was a message to a church that had become too spiritualy minded to be any earthly good.
#2, tongues + interpretation equals prophesy. tongues + worship, prayer or just private devotion is simly evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost. same gift, different use.
#3, We do not seek for signs, I was saying that they should follow us, the beleivers.
Now a question to you, has your church ever had someone to speak in tongues and then prophesy? This has happened several times in our
congregation that someone has been used like this.
Have you recieved the Holy Ghost since you beleved?
sorry so to the point, but it is crunch time for a sermon tomorrow, God bless.
============================================
From: "Don" <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
To: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:41:33 -0500
Sir, I humbly submit that "quench not the Spirit" (1 Thess 5:19) refers to submitting to our carnal lusts, not telling someone that they are using the gift of tongues incorrectly.
When several people at the same time begin to worship God in a gift that He personally has given them...I'm saying that you're violating scripture itself. Are you denying that Paul's words are inspired by God Himself? And therefore, it is His (God's) instructions we read in 1 Cor 14:27? If not, then why are you allowing your congregation to violate these instructions by
allowing more than one at a time?
Tongues+interpretation does not equal prophesy. Prophesy is specifically spoken of as being a separate gift, not a result of tongues. We are to
desire more to prophesy than we are to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5). 1 Cor 14:28-32 could lead someone to believe that it's talking about a result of the gift of tongues; however, it is not modifying the previous two verses, and is referring to the gift of prophesy, not the result of the gift of tongues (the key being the reference to a judge instead of an interpreter).
So if the signs are following you, I have asked a perfectly valid question: Are the other signs listed in Mark 16:17-18 following as well, or is there some reason that the other signs are not valid or are not following you?
No church I have ever been associated with has had someone speak in tongues. We have had prophesy, many many times over. And yes, I know for a fact the Holy Spirit filled me the instant I truly believed to the saving of my soul,
through the joy that I have in my salvation, and the way that God continually works on me and on others through me.
Finally, sir, you still have not answered my request about publishing our discussion. I will take that to mean that you would prefer I not, and I will honor that request.
Thanks for your time, and God Bless!
=============================================
Hello again Don, I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now that you answered a couple of questions. Before I forget again please feel free to share what i have e mailed, as long as it is in the same context, I beleive you are a man of integrity. Don, yes I beleive Pauls writings were deeply inspired of God.
You have had no experience by your own words in an atmosphere with people that have been baptized in the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues, so let me do my best to explain what happens sometimes.
many times when the spirit is flowing through a spirit filled congregation people will worship and tongues will be spoken, but when this happens it is in total harmony with the word.
Then there are those times that suddenly there is a change in the atmosphere, the Spirit of God has a word, and or a prophesy for our church. This is a time that the whole congregation excepy ofcourse the one or ones being used are to be completely silent. Then the gift of prophesy comes forth, whether direct or through tongues and interpretation.
In referance to mark, yes I beleive the whole chapter. Paul was bitten by a serpent and did not die, people have digested poison without knowing and God was with them, and they did not die.the key in these powerful scriptures is, ye shall, be saved. There is a continuing refered to here. A future tense. We may have to agree to disagree, however we can communicate as long as you like. i will have much more time tomorrow. God speed.
To: <Kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Question
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:15:12 -0500
Sir, my name is Don, and I'm an independent fundamental Baptist.
I've been having a conversation with a member of your church, who I prefer to leave unnamed at this time, and I pointed out some scripture to him for which he didn't have an answer.
I advised him to ask you for the answer. His response was that you could tell me better than he could tell me what you told him, and he provided me with your e-mail address.
Here's the background: He announced that he, and the rest of your congregation, prayed out loud together, and he began to speak in tongues,
along with others in the congregation. He admitted that there was no interpretation given.
I want you to know up front, and this gentleman already knows this: I do not forbid to speak in tongues. Unlike many of my IF Baptist brethren, I
haven't made up my mind about the subject of the cessation of the gifts of the spirit. I tend toward a different interpretation of 1 Cor 13 than traditional mainstream--the subject of which is not something intended for discussion through this e-mail.
What I pointed out to this gentleman is that 1 Corinthians 14 forbids what he, and the rest of the congregation, did. I use the explicit instructions for the use of the gift of tongues found in verses 23, 26-28, 33, and 40.
He indicated that he was aware of those verses, and was unable/unsure of how to respond to the fact that your congregation apparently did exactly what the apostle Paul says not to do in those verses.
He and I are hoping you can provide an answer.
With your permission, I'll share your answer with him, and with your permission, a few others as well.
Thanks in advance, and God Bless!
Don
========================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
To: <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: Question
Hello Sir, It is with kindest regards that I answer your e-mail. Also I may add that I sincerely appreciate the spirit in which you put forth in your effort to understand these matters.
To understand why Paul reprimanded his congregation for speaking in tongues you will have to understand a little background and history of the situation. He did not forbid speaking in tongues. On the contrary, it was the absence of balance, and wisdom in the matter that Paul was correcting the Corinthians. Verse 39 forbid not to speak with tongues.
1 Cor. reveals the problems, pressures, and struggles of a church called out of a pagan society. Paul addresses a variety of problems in the lifestyle of the Corinthian church, actions, lawsuits, immorality, questionable practices, abuse of the lords supper, and spiritual gifts.
These are not words of forbidding, but words of discipline, a call to order if you please. For example if all we do when we get together is have the lords supper or feet washing or business meetings or simply just do one of anything it would bring confusion to the sinner visiting.
Paul lets us know that in 1Cor.12:28 there are diversities of tongues. Tongues are used or should I say enjoyed both in worship and prayer (
public and private) diversity of tongues does not in it self refer to different languages. It is also referring to different situations such as worship services or prayer meetings or church in general. Prophesying may be one of the most important rolls of speaking in tongues, however it is not the only purpose. Tongues ( not the interpretation) are a sign to the unbeliever.
1Cor.14: 22. Verse 23 is simply telling us that the definition of having church is not coming together and speaking in tongues to one another all the time, but it is many things that come together for the edifying of the body. Speaking in tongues is just one of many facets that go into a well balanced church service.
Paul said in 1Cor.14: 18, I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all. That's a whole lot of speaking in tongues. Paul is teaching
balance. Paul was the founder of this church, and was giving it spiritual direction. A young man came to a Pentecostal camp meeting, and every service during the preaching all he wanted to do was speak in tongues. The speaker saw the imbalance of the situation. The next service he gave the youngster a pad and pen and asked the young man to take notes of his preaching of which he did. Was he telling the young man not to ever speak in tongues in a service without an interpreter? No, he was simply saying to all things there is a season, climate, atmosphere, or timing, so until you learn to discern the difference let's try taking notes for a while. Paul was simply saying let's focus for a while on some of the things you guys are leaving out.
I think the key to the whole scheme of things is found in Pauls last remarks of chapter 14, let all things be done in an orderly fashion. When
it is time rejoice in tongues rejoice in tongues.
The spirit is a living flowing presence. To perceive it one has to be filled with it. Like Paul I try to teach people to flow with the spirit. Yes there are times ( not all times) that we at Landmark enjoy the total engulfing presence of the Holy Ghost, and as a result the whole
congregation will respond with tongues or a shout or weeping or any number of things that please the Lord.
In acts chapter 10 peter was commissioned by the Lord to preach this New Testament message to the gentiles. In verse 44 while Peter yet spake
these words, ( now note that they understood his words and had no need of an interpreter yet they still spoke in tongues, and were not rebuked) the
Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. How do they know the Holy Ghost fell on all of them? Verse 46, for they heard them speak with tongues. Tongues are not just for prophesying, but they are also a sign to the unbeliever, and evidence of the infilling of Gods greatest gift to mankind, the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:17, If we are truly believers we need the signs. Casting out evil, and speaking in tongues. Shunning the evil and doing the right.
I hope this has helped in some small way. May God smile greatly on your persuite to know things as they should be known.
P.S. thank you for being kind to my friend and brother in the Lord. I can tell from what you told me that he only wants Gods very best for you. If we can help any further don't hesitate to ask.
Pastor Marshburn
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From: "Don" <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
To: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 12:55:10 -0500
Sir, you did not indicate whether you wished for this to be shared publicly or not, so out of respect, I won't share it with anyone else until you do.
With all humbleness, I find some problems with your answer. The first one being, you did not address my question, but chose rather to justify
speaking in tongues--which I specifically stated I was not forbidding.
The question was, why is your church violating the guidelines Paul gave in 1 Cor 14:23, 26-28, 33, and 40?
How can you allow your entire congregation to speak in tongues at the same time, and say that it does not violate what Paul was admonishing against in v.23? Or v.27-28?
The second problem I find is your mixing of the gift of tongues and prophecy. 1 Cor 12 specifically says that prophecy is different than
diversities of tongues. What you're indicating is that there is a difference between the gift of tongues that the apostles received in Acts 2, and the gift of tongues referenced in 1 Cor 12. I can find no scripture to back up that supposed difference.
The third problem I see is your reference to Mark 16:17. I disagree with your statement that we "need" signs. Jesus also told a group of people that they were a foolish generations, seeking signs. And if you're going to include tongues as a sign, based on Mark 16:17, you need to also include casting out demons, and taking up serpents, and drinking poison (Mark 16:18). Do you also seek these signs?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
To: <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Question
#1, My intire congregation does not speak in tongues at the same time, chiefly because not all of them have received the HolyGhost. when several
people at the same time begin to worship God in a gift that he personally has given them are you saying that I should stop what the Lord himself
started.1Thessalonians 5:19, quench not the Spirit.
I did answer your question, maybe not clear enough. The people at corinth wanted to do this all the time, that was out of balance. It was a message to a church that had become too spiritualy minded to be any earthly good.
#2, tongues + interpretation equals prophesy. tongues + worship, prayer or just private devotion is simly evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost. same gift, different use.
#3, We do not seek for signs, I was saying that they should follow us, the beleivers.
Now a question to you, has your church ever had someone to speak in tongues and then prophesy? This has happened several times in our
congregation that someone has been used like this.
Have you recieved the Holy Ghost since you beleved?
sorry so to the point, but it is crunch time for a sermon tomorrow, God bless.
============================================
From: "Don" <d__o__n@hotmail.com>
To: "kenny marshburn" <kmarshburn@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:41:33 -0500
Sir, I humbly submit that "quench not the Spirit" (1 Thess 5:19) refers to submitting to our carnal lusts, not telling someone that they are using the gift of tongues incorrectly.
When several people at the same time begin to worship God in a gift that He personally has given them...I'm saying that you're violating scripture itself. Are you denying that Paul's words are inspired by God Himself? And therefore, it is His (God's) instructions we read in 1 Cor 14:27? If not, then why are you allowing your congregation to violate these instructions by
allowing more than one at a time?
Tongues+interpretation does not equal prophesy. Prophesy is specifically spoken of as being a separate gift, not a result of tongues. We are to
desire more to prophesy than we are to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5). 1 Cor 14:28-32 could lead someone to believe that it's talking about a result of the gift of tongues; however, it is not modifying the previous two verses, and is referring to the gift of prophesy, not the result of the gift of tongues (the key being the reference to a judge instead of an interpreter).
So if the signs are following you, I have asked a perfectly valid question: Are the other signs listed in Mark 16:17-18 following as well, or is there some reason that the other signs are not valid or are not following you?
No church I have ever been associated with has had someone speak in tongues. We have had prophesy, many many times over. And yes, I know for a fact the Holy Spirit filled me the instant I truly believed to the saving of my soul,
through the joy that I have in my salvation, and the way that God continually works on me and on others through me.
Finally, sir, you still have not answered my request about publishing our discussion. I will take that to mean that you would prefer I not, and I will honor that request.
Thanks for your time, and God Bless!
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Hello again Don, I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now that you answered a couple of questions. Before I forget again please feel free to share what i have e mailed, as long as it is in the same context, I beleive you are a man of integrity. Don, yes I beleive Pauls writings were deeply inspired of God.
You have had no experience by your own words in an atmosphere with people that have been baptized in the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues, so let me do my best to explain what happens sometimes.
many times when the spirit is flowing through a spirit filled congregation people will worship and tongues will be spoken, but when this happens it is in total harmony with the word.
Then there are those times that suddenly there is a change in the atmosphere, the Spirit of God has a word, and or a prophesy for our church. This is a time that the whole congregation excepy ofcourse the one or ones being used are to be completely silent. Then the gift of prophesy comes forth, whether direct or through tongues and interpretation.
In referance to mark, yes I beleive the whole chapter. Paul was bitten by a serpent and did not die, people have digested poison without knowing and God was with them, and they did not die.the key in these powerful scriptures is, ye shall, be saved. There is a continuing refered to here. A future tense. We may have to agree to disagree, however we can communicate as long as you like. i will have much more time tomorrow. God speed.
"too spiritualy minded to be any earthly good."
1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto CARNAL;, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not CARNAL, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not CARNAL?
1Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto CARNAL;, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not CARNAL, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not CARNAL?
In no way is this statement meant to be facetious (sp?), but in all fairness, would you not want to help others if they were not in the right direction? To say you don't want to know the name of the church is to say that you aren't interested in the right-ness of others souls.
Maybe I'm hearing wrong, it just seems that the entries on this board are defense to ones view point, doctrine or belief rather than efforts to assist in finding TRUE salvation.
I have only read this boards postings tonight, but am appalled at the shot's at Churches, Pastors and persons beliefs.
It would seem more effective, if one was in error; to show them (in love; I believe that is still understood to be a truth in the Word), rather than to shoot them down.
I'm sure Brian's remarks are in effort to understand, to help if necessary or possible, or to find the direction God would have him to go.
I close with this thought, as I may not be back to further discuss. One should take heed to the teachings and examples of scripture. Many times there were devout and sincere (even Men of God) that the Lord used others to reveal there was more for them than they currently experienced.
I draw mainly from the Book of Acts (Actions of the Apostles, the History of the New Testament Church) for example, Saul (now commonly known as the man Paul, whom you have quoted many times), how that he was very sincere in his ways, yet The Lord showed him there was something else for him.
I'm reminded of Cornelius, a common soldier in the Italian Army, scripturally referred to as a devout man, one who loved God with all his house, yet the Lord had more for him to do.
So on and so forth, many men of renown were reluctant to change, yet through the mysterious workings of Jesus Christ, (whether it be in His physical or Spirit form) ALL changed and became the very same type of person that Brian is!
A tongue talkin, holy rollin, born again, liberated in the name of Jesus, power packed, One God believin, (and yes even foot washin!!!) child of the King!
I guess what I am saying to all those who read and respond is this, "Be careful how you talk about something or someone, as you may become one yourself!!!!"
Many a good Baptist have become an even better Apostolic Pentecostal. (My dog-tags state my religious preference "Southern Baptist")
I would be glad to share with any sincere individual who would like to know, my testimony, how that once I began my search through the Scriptures that the Lord opened doors, revealing Himself to me. (Too long to post)
Not spoken harshly, and I hope not taken as such, just frankly, as I feel the Lord would do so were He to join in!
God speed to you all on your journey, "Into His Marvelous Light"!!!
Love and respect to all,
Matthew E. Drake
Matthewdrakenc@hotmail.com
(A friend of Brian's)