"given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

[convicted1]

Jesus told the Pharisees, the Saducees, the Israelites that sought to kill him, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

 

[Winman]

Jesus told the Pharisees, the Saducees, the Israelites that sought to kill him, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Exactly, they would not receive his words (his Father's words) or believe them.

This verse is not teaching that God zaps men with faith, Jesus fully gave his disciples credit for "keeping", "receiving", and "believing" the words he gave them.

Jhn17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Who did Jesus give credit to for keeping, receiving, and believing the words he gave to them?

Answer honestly.

 

[convicted1]

Exactly, they would not receive his words (his Father's words) or believe them.

This verse is not teaching that God zaps men with faith, Jesus fully gave his disciples credit for "keeping", "receiving", and "believing" the words he gave them.

Jhn17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Who did Jesus give credit to for keeping, receiving, and believing the words he gave to them?

Answer honestly.

And those that kept His word, are those He said
I have manifested(made known) Thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world.

 

[Winman]

You know, it occurs to me that the whole design and purpose of Calvinism is to convince men they cannot believe the gospel.

 

[Winman]

And those that kept His word, are those He said
I have manifested(made known) Thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world.

Yes, and if you go to John 6:64 we are clearly told that Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not and who would betray him. This is foreknowledge of faith, we are elect according to foreknowledge.

I submit to you that the persons given are those God the Father knew from the beginning would believe. As 2 The 2:13 says they were chosen through "belief in the truth".

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

As in John 6:64, once again we see the term "from the beginning" and this verse says God has chosen you from the beginning through sanctification of the Spirit (God's part), and "belief of the truth" (man's part).

Again, this is clearly foreknowledge of faith and shows God chooses those men he knows will believe the truth.

So, of course the men the Father gives Jesus believe, God always knew they would, that is why he chose them, and why he gave them to Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

You know, it occurs to me that the whole design and purpose of Calvinism is to convince men they cannot believe the gospel.

This post was totally unnecessary and unwarranted, Brother. Fallen man can't understand the gospel, and furthermore, has no desire for it.

 

[convicted1]

In John 17, Jesus "credited" those that kept His word, because they were the men given to Him out of the world by the Father. In verse 14, Jesus said He had given them His word. He even stated He prayed not for the world, but for those God had given Him out of the world. Then in verse 20, He said He didn't pray for these only, but those who believe on them through their word(word of God…bible). These were the ones Jesus was "crediting" with keeping His word.

 

[Winman]

This post was totally unnecessary and unwarranted, Brother. Fallen man can't understand the gospel, and furthermore, has no desire for it.

You just confirmed what I said Willis.

 

[convicted1]

Yes, and if you go to John 6:64 we are clearly told that Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not and who would betray him. This is foreknowledge of faith, we are elect according to foreknowledge.

I submit to you that the persons given are those God the Father knew from the beginning would believe. As 2 The 2:13 says they were chosen through "belief in the truth".

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

As in John 6:64, once again we see the term "from the beginning" and this verse says God has chosen you from the beginning through sanctification of the Spirit (God's part), and "belief of the truth" (man's part).

Again, this is clearly foreknowledge of faith and shows God chooses those men he knows will believe the truth.

So, of course the men the Father gives Jesus believe, God always knew they would, that is why he chose them, and why he gave them to Jesus.

Forseen faith salvation gives man a basis for boasting because God sees them believing, therefore, He elects…chooses…ordains, to salvation because they'll believe. It is also doctrine that hasn't been proven to be "sound". God elects those He elected from the foundation of the world.

 

[Winman]

In John 17, Jesus "credited" those that kept His word, because they were the men given to Him out of the world by the Father. In verse 14, Jesus said He had given them His word. He even stated He prayed not for the world, but for those God had given Him out of the world. Then in verse 20, He said He didn't pray for these only, but those who believe on them through their word(word of God…bible). These were the ones Jesus was "crediting" with keeping His word.

Yes Willis, but it doesn't say or remotely imply God caused them to receive his words or believe. Jesus completely gave credit to his disciples for keeping, receiving, and believing his word.

And you admit that Jesus said others would believe through their word. It doesn't say "God will cause them to believe".

You can't just insert your presuppositions into scripture Willis, that is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Winman]

Forseen faith salvation gives man a basis for boasting because God sees them believing, therefore, He elects…chooses…ordains, to salvation because they'll believe. It is also doctrine that hasn't been proven to be "sound". God elects those He elected from the foundation of the world.

It does not give them any reason to boast, for unless God the Father had given them his word (often accompanied by miracles), they could not possibly believe. Paul implied in Romans 10:14 that no man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him, and the only way he can hear of Jesus is from the word of God, or a preacher preaching the word of God. God gets ALL the credit.

Your view is that if a person throws a life-saver to a drowning man, the drowning men gets credit for grabbing hold of it, and the man who threw the preserver to him which enabled him to be saved receives no credit.

That is how warped Calvinism is.

 

[convicted1]

You just confirmed what I said Willis.

For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish...1 Cor. 1:18.

Fallen man, in his fallen state, has no desire to be saved. They have to be drawn to be able come to Him to "be ye reconciled to God". The gospel draws outwardly, but it takes God to draw one inwardly. Once He has done His part in "livening up" the inner man, they can then truly comprehend the gospel and it's truly saying to them.

 

[convicted1]

It does not give them any reason to boast, for unless God the Father had given them his word (often accompanied by miracles), they could not possibly believe. Paul implied in Romans 10:14 that no man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him, and the only way he can hear of Jesus is from the word of God, or a preacher preaching the word of God. God gets ALL the credit.

Your view is that if a person throws a life-saver to a drowning man, the drowning men gets credit for grabbing hold of it, and the man who threw the preserver to him which enabled him to be saved receives no credit.

That is how warped Calvinism is.

The problem with this analogy is sinners aren't drowning, flailing their arms, screaming for help. They're drowned, floating on top of the water.

 

[Winman]

For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish...1 Cor. 1:18.

Fallen man, in his fallen state, has no desire to be saved. They have to be drawn to be able come to Him to "be ye reconciled to God". The gospel draws outwardly, but it takes God to draw one inwardly. Once He has done His part in "livening up" the inner man, they can then truly comprehend the gospel and it's truly saying to them.

No Willis, not all men reject the gospel as foolishness. Many men see the gospel's truth at once. They see and confess they are lost sinners. They see that Jesus loved them and died to pay their sin, and rose from the dead. They hear that if they believe on Jesus they will be saved, and they gladly receive him.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

These men were not regenerated until they believed. Peter had just told them they must repent and be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit. How could they be regenerated without the Holy Spirit?

Peter must have been off his rocker to tell people to repent and believe, and afterward they would receive the Spirit. According to Calvinism (and you) this is impossible.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture. It is anti-scripture.

You don't get it, Total Inability is FALSE DOCTRINE. Men can believe.

 

[convicted1]

Yes Willis, but it doesn't say or remotely imply God caused them to receive his words or believe. Jesus completely gave credit to his disciples for keeping, receiving, and believing his word.

And you admit that Jesus said others would believe through their word. It doesn't say "God will cause them to believe".

You can't just insert your presuppositions into scripture Willis, that is a recipe for disaster.

Brother they received His word, they kept His word, they believed His word, based solely on this fact; they were chosen from the foundation of the world to be redeemed by the Lamb of God. All that the Father gave Him, He lost none, except the son of perdition, that the scriptures might be fulfilled.

 

[Winman]

Brother they received His word, they kept His word, they believed His word, based solely on this fact; they were chosen from the foundation of the world to be redeemed by the Lamb of God. All that the Father gave Him, He lost none, except the son of perdition, that the scriptures might be fulfilled.

And they were chosen "through" belief of the truth. They had to believe to be chosen Willis.

It doesn't say they were chosen "to" believe as many falsely distort.

And how could Jesus lose them in your system? Please explain that one.

 

[convicted1]

And they were chosen "through" belief of the truth. They had to believe to be chosen Willis.

It doesn't say they were chosen "to" believe as many falsely distort.

And how could Jesus lose them in your system? Please explain that one.

Brother, they were chosen even before they believed. They believed because of them being chosen, and not chosen because they believed. That has man electing himself. Their believing Him was evidence of their election, their non-belief was evidence of their reprobation.

Jesus lost none that God gave Him. Judas was a chosen vessel to betray Jesus, so that Christ would be crucified, thereby fulfilling the scriptures.

 

[Winman]

Brother, they were chosen even before they believed.

That's why it's called foreknowledge Willis.

They believed because of them being chosen, and not chosen because they believed.

Nonsense, it says they were chosen "through" belief of the truth. That is like saying you have to go "through" the Lincoln Tunnel to enter New York City. You have to go through the tunnel before you get to the city. Likewise, you have to believe before you are chosen if you are chosen through faith.

And how could you elect yourself before you were born?? That's insane. You don't even exist and yet you chose yourself? I'll tell you something Willis, Calvinists do not tend to be very logical.

That has man electing himself. Their believing Him was evidence of their election, their non-belief was evidence of their reprobation.

Again Willis, how do you choose yourself before you even exist? :laugh:

Jesus lost none that God gave Him. Judas was a chosen vessel to betray Jesus, so that Christ would be crucified, thereby fulfilling the scriptures.

I know he didn't lose any Willis, I am asking how Jesus could lose someone in Calvinism? That is nonsensical if Calvinism is true.

Now, if a person chooses whether they believe or not, there is a chance they might be lost. But if God irresistibly causes someone to believe, how could any man be lost? It's nonsense to even talk about it, it would be an impossibility.

Of course, you will overlook this like the myriad of other logical problems associated with Calvinism.

 

[convicted1]

And they were chosen "through" belief of the truth. They had to believe to be chosen Willis.

It doesn't say they were chosen "to" believe as many falsely distort.

And how could Jesus lose them in your system? Please explain that one.

"We are bound to give thanks alway to God for you Brethern beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Look closely at this verse, Brother winman. God, from the beginning, has chosen...has elected...has foreordained to save people through:

1) sanctification of the Spirit
2) belief of the truth

To sanctify means to be "set aside", does it not? If yes, then how can a sinner set himself aside? God has to do this work Himself.

Jesus said that if you don't believe in Him, where He's at , you can't come(paraphrasing here). Those who don't have His word abiding in them can't truly believe from their heart. Sinners have a darkened, a hardened heart that the seed...the word, won't/can't penetrate. That's why it's imperative that God gives them a new heart prior to anything else. This new heart is able to receive the seed...the word, and is able to believe from that new heart that "He is and that He is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

 

[Rippon]

Total Inability is FALSE DOCTRINE.

Well Winman,I think you are showing total inability to believe some Bible truths.