Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

[Iconoclast]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This negative propositional truth may be restated positively:

“All the men whom the Father draws will come to me;” [and I will infallibly glorify those men in the Resurrection].

or

"All the men who come to me were drawn by the Father;" [and I will infallibly glorify those men in the Resurrection].


The proposition of John 6:44 does not say:

“The Father draws all men. Those who come to me were drawn by the Father. Those who do not come to me were also drawn by the Father. Therefore, the difference as to why some come to me and others do not reside in the free will of man -- not in the Father's drawing."

Your fallacious conclusion is exactly opposite to that of Christ’s clear teaching.

But alas, this comes as no surprise.

:thumbsup::laugh::wavey::applause:

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist

In this passage it is clear that being given by the Father is restricted only to those who actually come to the Son in faith - Jn. 6:37-39 - as "ALL"

Sadly -- not one text saying "all drawn WILL come" -- not even in John 6:37-39.

"He came to His Own - and His OWN received Him not" John 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biblicist
Likewise, NONE come to the Son that the Father does not "draw" to the Son - Jn. 6:44.

True. But sadly for Calvinism's limited Gospel God says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

Good news for mankind. Bad news for Calvinism.

Do you expect us to believe this written remorse on your part

Sometimes Calvinism fails the test of scripture so quickly - that it is indeed sad.

Do you not agree??

what He means by "draw" does demand "ALL" drawn/taught do in fact, "every man" thus taught does come in faith to Christ.

And still the text does not say "all drawn WILL come to faith in Christ" as Calvinism "needed" so once again the Calvinist argument is devoted to a bending-twisting of the text trying to get "all drawn WILL come to Christ" when not one text in all of scripture says that.

Calvinism is a constant appeal to "texts that do not exist" while downsizing texts "that do".

Take note that being drawn in verse 44 is the work of the Father not of men

John 12:32 "I WILL DRAW ALL unto Me" is not the work of men - but of God.

John 16 "The Spirit of Truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" is the work of God - not of men.

1John 2:2 God sent His Son as the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" is the act of God - not of man.

1John 4 God sent His Son to be "the Savior of the World" is the act of God - not of man.

This fact is not helping the Calvinist cause as much as you may have at first imagined.

Every man thus drawn does come to Christ and only they are the EXCEPTION to the universal "no man can come" as NONE who merely EXTERNALLY hear and learn come to Christ in faith as shown in John 6:64.

Your statement is not correct at all. As it turns out - those who DO come to Christ ARE NOT an exception to the rule "no man CAN come to Me UNLESS the Father draws Him". They are a perfect illustration of the rule rather than an exception to it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This negative propositional truth may be restated positively:

“All the men whom the Father draws will come to me;” [and I will infallibly glorify those men in the Resurrection].

That is not true at all.

All squares are rectangles - but not all rectangles are squares -- the Calvinist argument seems to fall short of accepting this basic point.

All who come to Christ are among those who are drawn - but not all drawn will come.

The statement that no one CAN come to Christ unless they are drawn - is like the "all squares are rectangles" part of the statement.

It does not follow however that "all rectangles are squares" the way the Calvinist argument would have it assumed.

As someone has noted here before - I am simply stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[quantumfaith]

That is not true at all.

All squares are rectangles - but not all rectangles are squares -- the Calvinist argument seems to fall short of accepting this basic point.

All who come to Christ are among those who are drawn - but not all drawn will come.

The statement that no one CAN come to Christ unless they are drawn - is like the "all squares are rectangles" part of the statement.

It does not follow however that "all rectangles are squares" the way the Calvinist argument would have it assumed.

As someone has noted here before - I am simply stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

I think it was an attempt at a contra-positive, but I sometimes have difficulty recognizing when not int IF-THEN format.

 

[Skandelon]

This is complete hogwash!

Really? Which part? Let's go line by line of what I wrote above that you called "complete hogwash" and you tell me which point you think is "complete hogwash."

FIRST LINE: When Jesus was here in the flesh was he attempting to get thousands of followers and start a really big church?

So, do you think Jesus was attempting to get thousands of followers and start a big church while he was here on earth?

SECOND LINE: Was he trying to convert as many as he possible could while he had time? Couldn't Jesus have taught a message like Peter did in Acts 2 and had an even better response?

Was it this that was 'hogwash'? Do you believe Jesus WAS attempting to convert as many as possible and have as good of a response as Peter did in Acts? Is that it?

THIRD LINE: Clearly, Jesus' purpose on earth was to redeem mankind through the cross

Maybe you think this is hogwash? I can't see how, but maybe you don't believe in the redemption of the cross? I don't know, you tell me?

FOURTH LINE: [Jesus purpose was] first to disciple a preselected few from Israel to be the foundation for the church, his divinely appointed messengers of the gospel appeal sent to the whole world for reconciliation.

Was this hogwash? Did Jesus not have a preselect number of Jewish apostles who became the foundation for his church? Were they not divinely appointed messengers? Did they not make an appeal for mankind to be reconciled? What exactly is hogwash about this?

I just went though every line of what you labeled "HOGWASH" and before we move on I'd like to know what EXACTLY is HOGWASH...

I'll wait here....

 

[The Biblicist]

Really? Which part? Let's go line by line of what I wrote above that you called "complete hogwash" and you tell me which point you think is "complete hogwash."

So, do you think Jesus was attempting to get thousands of followers and start a big church while he was here on earth?


Was it this that was 'hogwash'? Do you believe Jesus WAS attempting to convert as many as possible and have as good of a response as Peter did in Acts? Is that it?

Maybe you think this is hogwash? I can't see how, but maybe you don't believe in the redemption of the cross? I don't know, you tell me?

Was this hogwash? Did Jesus not have a preselect number of Jewish apostles who became the foundation for his church? Were they not divinely appointed messengers? Did they not make an appeal for mankind to be reconciled? What exactly is hogwash about this?

I just went though every line of what you labeled "HOGWASH" and before we move on I'd like to know what EXACTLY is HOGWASH...

I'll wait here....

Unlike many on this forum, I generally read the whole post before I comment. My first words were in response to the whole post including your conclusion. I followed by giving you specific reasons which you entirely omitted. Nice political tactic and showy but your position is just plain hogwash and I do give you specifics why it is hogwash. I said where I agreed with you but plainly pointed out where I disagreed with your statements. I will repost my response which you conveniently omit.

 

[The Biblicist]

This is complete hogwash! The SAME gospel was preached before and after the cross (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; etc.). The same way of salvation and the same Savior (Mt. 7:13-14; Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12).

He did purpose to build a new ADMINISTRATIVE house of God as a living congregational body that consisted of a qualified ministry, members and capable of administering ordinances but this is not to be equated with salvation but with a new public administrative service IN His Kingdom on earth.



Absolute nonsense! The princples applied here are universal not limited to a restricted time period as both giving and coming are in direct connection with obtaining eternal life - Jn. 17:2. In every generation prior to Israel's existence or during the period between Moses and Christ or between Christ and His secod advent there are always those being hardened by exposure to truth as well as those given to Christ by the Father through election to come to Christ in faith. Just because it is occuring when Christ was on earth within the sphere of redemptive activity (Jewish) does not mean it is unique to that time frame or to that people.

Your feeble attempt here reminds me of New Lighters who claim that since most New Testament epistles were written to churches and church members then the total contents have no application to anyone outside of church membership! The same kind of foolish reasoning lays at the heart of your misinterpretation of these scriptures.

Here you go Skandelon, my reasons why your position is complete "hogwash"

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you expect us to believe this written remorse on your part is anything but hypocrisy???

What is sad is you are wrong! The word "all" and "everyone" in verse 45, which verse is given to further explain what He means by "draw" does demand "ALL" drawn/taught do in fact, "every man" thus taught does come in faith to Christ.

Take note that being drawn in verse 44 is the work of the Father not of men or human messengers and the teaching in verse 45 is the work of the Father not of human messangers. Furthermore the clarification of what it means to be "taught" by God is the INTERNAL work of the Father (heard, learned) not the EXTERNAL work of human messengers.

Take note that 45 is mere scripture quotation while verse 45b is inspired interpretation of that quotation and the same Greek word translated "all" in verse 45a is the same Greek word translated "every man" in verse 45b.

Take note that "taught" in verse 45a is defined as enabled INTERNAL hearing and enabled INTERNAL learning as INTERNAL TEACHING requires both ABILITY to hear what is taught BY THE FATHER as well as INTERNAL COMPREHENSION. Note that "ALL" in the quotation are taught and thus NONE of the "ALL" fail to be taught and likewise in the interpretation "EVERY MAN" thus taught does come to faith in Christ and therefore you are wrong! Every man thus drawn does come to Christ and only they are the EXCEPTION to the universal "no man can come" as NONE who merely EXTERNALLY hear and learn come to Christ in faith as shown in John 6:64.

Bob, I posted this again because either you missed it or you are intentionaly ignored it and are reposting the same nonsense again.

 

[The Biblicist]

I give undeniable clear explicit detailed biblical evidence your interpretation is wrong and you give nothing but personal OPINIONS without a shred of Bibical evidence in return! You talk about a waste of time responding? You talk about misdirection and misrepresentation!

1. John 6:35 completely repudiates your view of coming to Christ is physical "travel to" IN THIS CONTEXT as this verse clearly defines "come" to mean "believe" or come to Christ in faith.

2. John 17:2 completely repudiates your view of being given to Christ is being placed Spiritually in Christ as spiritual death is being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) whereas the reverse spiritual life is being brought into Spiritual union with Christ. However, eternal life/spiritual union is the CONSEQUENCE of being given in John 17:2 and not the act of being given as your interpetation demands.

3. John 6:64-65 completely repudiates your view that Christ draws all men
without exception to Himself as those in John 6:64 had never been drawn in the contextual sense of being drawn to Christ as John 6:65 explicity demands.

4. John 6:45 completely repudiates your view that drawing refers to EXTERNAL means by men but is explicitly stated to the be work of the Father which occurs INTERNALLY as fully explained by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 as an EFFECTUAL COMMAND by God and as clearly stated by Christ in Matthew 16:17 to be solely the work of the Father rather than "flesh and blood."


5. John 6:45 completely repudiates your view that not "ALL" drawn come to Christ as the scripture quotation demands that "draw" equals "taught" and "ALL" of which this scripture refers to NONE fail to be taught and those in John 6:64-65 were NOT included in that "ALL" because they are explicitly identifed as not being drawn by the Father. Furthermore, "ALL" equals "EVERY MAN" in the explanation of the scripture quotation and "heard" and "learned" equal "taught" in the scripture quotation and NONE fail to come to Christ.

6. John 6;65 completely repudiates your view of "heard" and "learned" as these are results of the Father's work not the results of men and thus these are INTERNAL acts obtained by God's work not the work of men. Having "heard" is equivilent to having "ears to hear" as in Matthew 13:9 which most of those present with literal physical ears listening to him were without and such ability must be given and God does not give it to all but only those given to Christ. "heard" is the result of God giving SPIRITUAL ability whereas "Learned" is a result of God giving SPIRITUAL comprehension of the truth as clearly spelled out in 2 Cor. 4:6 which comes as a direct effectual command of God where the gospel is used by God as the vehicle to express his Word of Command that actually creates INTERNAL SPIRITUAL LIGHT so that this person believes the gospel.

Scandelon, Bob, Van and Wiman here are the specific reasons your position is completely false. I post them again because none of you responded but chose to ignore them.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I posted this again because either you missed it or you are intentionaly ignored it

Oh contrare - recall the following from your supposedly missed post
============================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Do you expect us to believe this written remorse on your part

Sometimes Calvinism fails the test of scripture so quickly - that it is indeed sad.

Do you not agree??

Quote:
what He means by "draw" does demand "ALL" drawn/taught do in fact, "every man" thus taught does come in faith to Christ.

And still the text does not say "all drawn WILL come to faith in Christ" as Calvinism "needed" so once again the Calvinist argument is devoted to a bending-twisting of the text trying to get "all drawn WILL come to Christ" when not one text in all of scripture says that.

Calvinism is a constant appeal to "texts that do not exist" while downsizing texts "that do".

Quote:
Take note that being drawn in verse 44 is the work of the Father not of men

John 12:32 "I WILL DRAW ALL unto Me" is not the work of men - but of God.

John 16 "The Spirit of Truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" is the work of God - not of men.

1John 2:2 God sent His Son as the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" is the act of God - not of man.

1John 4 God sent His Son to be "the Savior of the World" is the act of God - not of man.

This fact is not helping the Calvinist cause as much as you may have at first imagined.

Quote:
Every man thus drawn does come to Christ and only they are the EXCEPTION to the universal "no man can come" as NONE who merely EXTERNALLY hear and learn come to Christ in faith as shown in John 6:64.
Your statement is not correct at all and your affirmation of your own belief "every man thus drawn DOES COME to Christ" is NOT found in the text at all. Apparently the fact that the much needed language is only found in your own quote -- "quoting you" does not seem to bother you.

Interesting that the BOLD text in your post is key to your position - and it cannot be found except in your own "quote of you" and not your quote of the actual text. Instructive.


. As it turns out - those who DO come to Christ ARE NOT an exception to the rule "no man CAN come to Me UNLESS the Father draws Him". They are a perfect illustration of the rule rather than an exception to it.

=======================

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

===============================

Obviously the text does not include the much-needed Calvinist formula "all drawn by the Father will come" --

Rather it points to those who are drawn, AND hear, AND are taught of God AND who have learned from that teaching as the ones who in fact "COME" to Christ, choosing to BELIEVE on Christ -. The "chain of qualifiers" did not "end with draw" as the Calvinist position so often loves to truncate and imagine for John 6.

"I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 (Yet another "missed opportunity" for the Calvinist much-imagined phrase to be written in actual scripture "and ALL drawn WILL come to Me".)

"I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Oh contrare - recall the following from your supposedly missed post
============================================

You did respond but your response did not answer my objections nor was your response contextually based.

Sometimes Calvinism fails the test of scripture so quickly - that it is indeed sad.

Do you not agree??

Perhaps, I should start addressing your articles and Positions by referring to it as "Adventists"???? However since you never quote SDA writers but stick with scripture then to address your scripture responses by calling it "Adventism" would not be fair would it? So why when I quote NOTHING but scripture do you choose to refer to my responses as "calvinism" since I never quote any calvinist but only use Scripture? To slur me rather than to deal wiht the scriptures I present? Would you prefer from this point on that I refer to all your responses as Adventism???

And still the text does not say "all drawn WILL come to faith in Christ" as Calvinism "needed" so once again the Calvinist argument is devoted to a bending-twisting of the text trying to get "all drawn WILL come to Christ" when not one text in all of scripture says that.

Why is it you cannot or will not deal with the explicit and specific contextual based reasons I provided that proves your assertion is wrong??? You simply ignore the evidence I provided! Is it because you cannot deal with it and choose retreat to the safe haven of acting like a parrot and just repeating your assertion????

Again, I will give you specific and explicit evidence your interpetation of John 6:44-45 is wrong.

1. The word "taught" in verse 45a is explanatory of the word "draw" in verse 44 and the words "heard" and "learned" are explanatory of the word "taught." Hence, to be drawn by the Father is to be "taught" by the Father and to be taught by the Father means you must have "heard" and "learned" from the Father. However, those in verse 64 had not been drawn, taught, heard and learned by the Father as Jesus explicitly states in verse 65.

2. John 6:45a is the scripture quotation from Isaiah while John 6:45b is the interpretation of that quotation. Don't confuse the quotation with the interpretation or misrepresent the quotation by your intepretation of the interpretation of the quotation!

4. In the Scripture quotation there are no exceptions provided which are not taught by God. Hence, "ALL" refers to only those "taught" by God. The scripture quotation excludes any exceptions. Yet those in verse 64 are not part of that "all" as Jesus explicitly denies they had been drawn by the Father (v. 65).

5. In the interpretation of the scripture quotation in verse 45b the words "every man" translate the very same Greek term translated "all" in verse 45a. Hence, "every man" IN HIS INTEPRETATION OF THE QUOTATION refers to "all" in the scripture quotation as it is the same word in the Greek. Hence, "every man" refers to all who are "taught" by God and those in verse 64 were not taught by God (v. 65) and thus not part of "every man" or "all" of this text. Hence, this "all" and "every man" includes only those drawn, taught by God and they ALL come to Christ - v. 45b.

6. "taught" in the quotation is interpreted by Christ to include "heard" and "learned" as it is impossible to be "taught" by anyone without hearing and learning. Since those in verse 64 both heard and learned from Christ (but not from the Father - v. 65) as they are called his "disciples" they cannot be included in "all" or "every man" who either "heard" or "learned" of the Father in verse 45b. Therefore, it is not EXTERNAL hearing or mere INTELLECTUAL learning that is in view or is given by the Father in verse 45. Here is where your .theory fails completely" and your intepretation is proven wrong. Both having "heard" and "learned" is the work of the Father on the INSIDE of this "all." All have physical ears but not all have "ears to hear" as Jesus says that is distinctly GIVEN by God whereas it is not given to others by God even though both are standing in front of Christ physically hearing what He is teaching and trying to comprend what they have heard with the physical ear.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.:

Such does not originate from "flesh and blood" (Mt. 16:17) but is revealed INWARDLY to them by God.

This inward revelation is by divine fiat or word of command by God as much as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is the "rhema" (Rom. 10:17) or WORD OF COMMAND that creates faith in the elect which is a work of God (Jn. 6:29)

Hence, EVERY MAN thus taught is drawn by God in this INTERNALIZED manner and EVERY MAN thus taught/drawn does comes to Christ:

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

What you MUST do to reject this plain exegetical based truth is:

1. Redirect this to be EXTERNAL work by "flesh and blood" preachers rather the INTERNAL work of God alone. This won't work because those in verse 64 both heard and learned ("disicples") and yet Christ denied they had been drawn by the Father (v. 65).

2. Try to convince that SOME of the "ALL" are not taught of God when Isaiah says "ALL" are taught of God leaving no exceptions. Thus reading into the text what it does not say and deny what it does say.

3. Try to convince that ALL MEN have "heard" but not all men have "learned" of the Father as Jesus demands that all who have heard and learned do come to Christ and thus being drawn, being taught is equivilent to both hearing and learning of the Father. Yet, Jesus denies that all have been "taught" in this manner by the Father - vv. 64-65.

 

[The Biblicist]

Why is it you cannot or will not deal with the explicit and specific contextual based reasons I provided that proves your assertion is wrong??? You simply ignore the evidence I provided! Is it because you cannot deal with it and choose retreat to the safe haven of acting like a parrot and just repeating your assertion????

Again, I will give you specific and explicit evidence your interpetation of John 6:44-45 is wrong.

1. The word "taught" in verse 45a is explanatory of the word "draw" in verse 44 and the words "heard" and "learned" are explanatory of the word "taught." Hence, to be drawn by the Father is to be "taught" by the Father and to be taught by the Father means you must have "heard" and "learned" from the Father. However, those in verse 64 had not been drawn, taught, heard and learned by the Father as Jesus explicitly states in verse 65.

2. John 6:45a is the scripture quotation from Isaiah while John 6:45b is the interpretation of that quotation. Don't confuse the quotation with the interpretation or misrepresent the quotation by your intepretation of the interpretation of the quotation!

4. In the Scripture quotation there are no exceptions provided which are not taught by God. Hence, "ALL" refers to only those "taught" by God. The scripture quotation excludes any exceptions. Yet those in verse 64 are not part of that "all" as Jesus explicitly denies they had been drawn by the Father (v. 65).

5. In the interpretation of the scripture quotation in verse 45b the words "every man" translate the very same Greek term translated "all" in verse 45a. Hence, "every man" IN HIS INTEPRETATION OF THE QUOTATION refers to "all" in the scripture quotation as it is the same word in the Greek. Hence, "every man" refers to all who are "taught" by God and those in verse 64 were not taught by God (v. 65) and thus not part of "every man" or "all" of this text. Hence, this "all" and "every man" includes only those drawn, taught by God and they ALL come to Christ - v. 45b.

6. "taught" in the quotation is interpreted by Christ to include "heard" and "learned" as it is impossible to be "taught" by anyone without hearing and learning. Since those in verse 64 both heard and learned from Christ (but not from the Father - v. 65) as they are called his "disciples" they cannot be included in "all" or "every man" who either "heard" or "learned" of the Father in verse 45b. Therefore, it is not EXTERNAL hearing or mere INTELLECTUAL learning that is in view or is given by the Father in verse 45. Here is where your .theory fails completely" and your intepretation is proven wrong. Both having "heard" and "learned" is the work of the Father on the INSIDE of this "all." All have physical ears but not all have "ears to hear" as Jesus says that is distinctly GIVEN by God whereas it is not given to others by God even though both are standing in front of Christ physically hearing what He is teaching and trying to comprend what they have heard with the physical ear.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.:

Such does not originate from "flesh and blood" (Mt. 16:17) but is revealed INWARDLY to them by God.

This inward revelation is by divine fiat or word of command by God as much as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is the "rhema" (Rom. 10:17) or WORD OF COMMAND that creates faith in the elect which is a work of God (Jn. 6:29)

Hence, EVERY MAN thus taught is drawn by God in this INTERNALIZED manner and EVERY MAN thus taught/drawn does comes to Christ:

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

What you MUST do to reject this plain exegetical based truth is:

1. Redirect this to be EXTERNAL work by "flesh and blood" preachers rather the INTERNAL work of God alone. This won't work because those in verse 64 both heard and learned ("disicples") and yet Christ denied they had been drawn by the Father (v. 65).

2. Try to convince that SOME of the "ALL" are not taught of God when Isaiah says "ALL" are taught of God leaving no exceptions. Thus reading into the text what it does not say and deny what it does say.

3. Try to convince that ALL MEN have "heard" but not all men have "learned" of the Father as Jesus demands that all who have heard and learned do come to Christ and thus being drawn, being taught is equivilent to both hearing and learning of the Father. Yet, Jesus denies that all have been "taught" in this manner by the Father - vv. 64-65.

Calvinism is a constant appeal to "texts that do not exist" while downsizing texts "that do".


John 12:32 "I WILL DRAW ALL unto Me" is not the work of men - but of God.

You are guilty of the very thing you charge here! The term "all" in John 12:32 refers to the very same ones as the "all" in John 6:45 which EXCLUDES some of mankind as those explictly stated by Christ in John 6:64 who were not drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:65).

Moreover, the immediate context of John 12:32 demands "ALL" refers to all men WITHOUT DISTINCTION of race as the gentiles seeking Christ immediately preceding this text and of which this text and its preceding verses is a direct result of Gentiles seeking him.

Bob, you make assertions that not only have no contextual basis but directly contradict both the immeidate (Jn. 12:21-32) but the preceding lengthy context dealing with the same subject (Jn. 6:29-65).

John 16 "The Spirit of Truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" is the work of God - not of men.

1John 2:2 God sent His Son as the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" is the act of God - not of man.

1John 4 God sent His Son to be "the Savior of the World" is the act of God - not of man.

All these texts have the same author - John - writing to the same RACE of believers - Jewish believers - who understood the term "world" to be inclusive of all mankind without distinction of race, class or gender as John again describes the elect in Rev. 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This univeral (catholic) inclusion was a primary struggel for Jewish believers in Acts 2-15 where it came to a head in Acts 15. Peter, James and John devoted themselves to the Jewish believers (Gal. 2:9).

This fact is not helping the Calvinist cause as much as you may have at first imagined.



Quote:
Every man thus drawn does come to Christ and only they are the EXCEPTION to the universal "no man can come" as NONE who merely EXTERNALLY hear and learn come to Christ in faith as shown in John 6:64.
Your statement is not correct at all and your affirmation of your own belief "every man thus drawn DOES COME to Christ" is NOT found in the text at all.

Apparently the fact that the much needed language is only found in your own quote -- "quoting you" does not seem to bother you.

You don't understand what I said! The words "no man can" is the rule whereas "except the Father draw him" is the exception to this universal rule.

John 6:64-65 proves you are wrong! Here are some Jesus explicitly denies had been drawn/taught by the Father and so the Father does not draw all men as you claim unless Christ was mistaken in verse 65?????? Hence, your intepretation of John 12:32 is equally incorrect unless Christ is mistaken in John 6:64-65????


.

As it turns out - those who DO come to Christ ARE NOT an exception to the rule "no man CAN come to Me UNLESS the Father draws Him". They are a perfect illustration of the rule rather than an exception to it.

You are directly contradicting the words of Christ to the contrary! He says "NO MAN CAN while you claim ALL MEN CAN because ALL MEN are drawn when Christ not only denies all men can but gives examples of such men in the very context (Jn. 6:36, 41-43, 64-65). Hence, the general rule is "no man can" while the exception to this rule actually is stated using the word "except" - "except the father draw him"

"I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.

in Christ,

Bob

Talk about completely perverting, jerking out of context and totally abusing a text of Scripture this takes the cake.

1. You ignore who is being specifically addressed - The Church and churches, he "that hath an ear to hear" not lost sinners as you wrongly apply it.

2. You ignore the problem - congregation of believers shutting Christ out of their church fellowship by their works and attitude.

This is how you deal with scripture - complete abuse.

 

[Winman]

Scandelon, Bob, Van and Wiman here are the specific reasons your position is completely false. I post them again because none of you responded but chose to ignore them.

I see only one point that could apply to what I posted;

6. "taught" in the quotation is interpreted by Christ to include "heard" and "learned" as it is impossible to be "taught" by anyone without hearing and learning. Since those in verse 64 both heard and learned from Christ (but not from the Father - v. 65) as they are called his "disciples" they cannot be included in "all" or "every man" who either "heard" or "learned" of the Father in verse 45b. Therefore, it is not EXTERNAL hearing or mere INTELLECTUAL learning that is in view or is given by the Father in verse 45. Here is where your .theory fails completely" and your intepretation is proven wrong. Both having "heard" and "learned" is the work of the Father on the INSIDE of this "all." All have physical ears but not all have "ears to hear" as Jesus says that is distinctly GIVEN by God whereas it is not given to others by God even though both are standing in front of Christ physically hearing what He is teaching and trying to comprend what they have heard with the physical ear.

So, if I understand you, you are claiming that John 6:45 is speaking of some supernatural teaching from God the Father.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This verse does not say one word about men being "supernaturally" taught, it simply says taught. It says those men who have heard, and have learned from the Father will come to Jesus. Not one word of being irresistibly taught as you would have people believe.

Scripture does not agree with your view, as Jesus told his disciples to "take heed what ye hear", showing the "hearing" was the responsibility of the hearer, not God.

Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

There are many other scriptures which tell men to be careful and take heed to God's word such as Luk 9:44; Deu 32:46,47; Pro 2:2-5; Mar 4:23,24; Mar 13:14; Act 10:33; Act 17:11; Hbr 2:1; Jam 1:19-25;

These words of Jesus completely refute your view. Jesus told his disciples to take heed "how ye hear", for to whosoever hears his words and believes, to him more shall be given, but to those who do not hear his words and believe, from him shall be taken even that which he seems to have.

Jesus clearly taught that the hearing and believing was the responsibility of the hearer, not an irresistible work of God as Biblicist falsely teaches. If knowledge and faith were irresistibly instilled in certain men as Biblicist believes, then no warning to take heed how you hear would be necessary, as these persons would be supernaturally compelled to hear and learn. Likewise, any warning to the non-elect would be nonsensical, as they could not possibly hear or believe. Jesus did not say nonsensical words.

No, Jesus's warning only makes sense if men themselves determine what they hear and learn.

 

[The Biblicist]

I see only one point that could apply to what I posted;



So, if I understand you, you are claiming that John 6:45 is speaking of some supernatural teaching from God the Father.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This verse does not say one word about men being "supernaturally" taught,

Correction it does not say one word about men doing the teaching but only "GOD" and teaching from God is Divine in contrast to human.

It says those men who have heard, and have learned from the Father will come to Jesus.

No it does not say that at all! It says "ALL" and "EVERY MAN" but never says "those"! The inclusive "all" in the scripture quotation leaves none out as "all" are taught and that is effectual because this "all" does not include those in John 6:64 by Christ's own words (Jn. 6:65).

It says "every man" thus taught does come to Christ and that is effectual and yet those men in John 6:64 both heard with the PHYSICAL ear and learned with the human INTELLECT but were not drawn/taught by the Father according to Christ - Jn. 6:65. Hence, every man thus taught does come an that is effectual irresistable whether you like it or not.

Scripture does not agree with your view, as Jesus told his disciples to "take heed what ye hear", showing the "hearing" was the responsibility of the hearer, not God.

Try reading the context for a change! He is addressing believers not the lost whereas in Matthew 13:9-10 he says "he that hath an ear let him hear" and then tells his disciples that it was "GIVEN" by the Father for them to know but "TO THEM IT WAS NOT GIVEN" - that is election in regard to being able to "KNOW" the truth.

Furthermore, you are being dishonest. You selected one portion of my post because the remainder of my post repudiated your assertions. Try again!

 

[Winman]

Correction it does not say one word about men doing the teaching but only "GOD" and teaching from God is Divine in contrast to human.

Who said anything about men doing the teaching? YOU, not me.

No it does not say that at all! It says "ALL" and "EVERY MAN" but never says "those"! The inclusive "all" in the scripture quotation leaves none out as "all" are taught and that is effectual because this "all" does not include those in John 6:64 by Christ's own words (Jn. 6:65).

It says "every man" thus taught does come to Christ and that is effectual and yet those men in John 6:64 both heard with the PHYSICAL ear and learned with the human INTELLECT but were not drawn/taught by the Father according to Christ - Jn. 6:65. Hence, every man thus taught does come an that is effectual irresistable whether you like it or not.

Yes, it says "every man" that has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. It is the man that has the responsibility to hear and learn.

It is no different from High School, "every student" who makes the honor roll heard and learned from their teachers. Every student who flunked out did not hear and learn from their teachers. It is the student that is responsible to hear and learn what is being taught by the teacher.

Now granted, God's word is supernatural, and God alone provides that, but it is the hearer that is responsible to hear and learn.

Try reading the context for a change! He is addressing believers not the lost whereas in Matthew 13:9-10 he says "he that hath an ear let him hear" and then tells his disciples that it was "GIVEN" by the Father for them to know but "TO THEM IT WAS NOT GIVEN" - that is election in regard to being able to "KNOW" the truth.

Furthermore, you are being dishonest. You selected one portion of my post because the remainder of my post repudiated your assertions. Try again!

You need to try and read scripture without the express purpose of making it support Calvinism! There is not one word in this scripture to support that God supernaturally instills knowledge in these persons. I have already proved from scripture itself that Jesus told his disciples to take heed how they hear, to those who hear, more shall be given, but to those who do not hear, even what was given them shall be taken away.

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

This warning makes absolutely no sense if your view is correct. If God irresistibly instills knowledge and faith in certain select persons, they do not need to be warned to listen. And it would be impossible for the non-elect to hear, so this warning would likewise be nonsensical to them.

Anybody without a bias can easily see this refutes your view, but you read scripture with the intent to see the false doctrines of Calvinism in it.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Do you expect us to believe this written remorse on your part

Sometimes Calvinism fails the test of scripture so quickly - that it is indeed sad.

Do you not agree??

Perhaps, I should start addressing your articles and Positions by referring to it as "Adventists"???? However since you never quote SDA writers but stick with scripture then to address your scripture responses by calling it "Adventism" would not be fair would it? So why when I quote NOTHING but scripture do you choose to refer to my responses as "calvinism" since I never quote any calvinist but only use Scripture?

I do that because I prefer to keep the issues at "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" - and point out the flaws in the systems - rather than the practice of ad hominem and against the person who posts.

If you are claiming that only Seventh-day Adventists are Arminian then you could refer to it as "Adventism" but I don't think any one of us here actually believes that to be the case regarding the Arminian position.

Feel free to refer to my position as "Arminian" or "Arminianism".

Why is it you cannot or will not deal with the explicit and specific contextual based reasons I provided that proves your assertion is wrong???

The teaching of Christ at the Passover begins in John 13 not John 16.

The statement of Christ about "Choosing the 12" starts in John 6 not in John 15.

You are correct that much of what is said between John 13 through John 17 is general teaching directed at the church - but not all of it is as we see both in John 13 and in John 15.

I simply point to the fact that the subject of "Christ choosing them" goes to the specific work given to them in selecting the 12 as He already pointed out in John 6.

John 6 “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" John 6:70

John 15
14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

You simply ignore the evidence I provided!

You have ignored the "did I not choose YOU - the TWELVE" John 6 - consistently so far yet it is context leading into the John 15 statement. We know why you "need" to avoid it.

Your argument boils down to the fact that some things from John 13-17 in that Passover supper apply to the entire church. We do not differ on that.

What I am pointing out is that the "specific topic" of "Christ choosing them" has already been identified by John as applying specifically to the 12 as disciples and as leaders in the church.

Again, I will give you specific and explicit evidence your interpetation of John 6:44-45 is wrong.

1. The word "taught" in verse 45a is explanatory of the word "draw"

Not true. Rather it is a chain of qualifiers that cannot be truncated as you seem to have hoped. It is

Drawn AND Taught AND who have LEARNED -- will come

The much needed "edit" of the text into "DRAWN which means TAUGHT, Heard and Learned" is missing from the text - it only exists in your "quote of you".

I don't think anyone here has missed that point.

in verse 44 and the words "heard" and "learned" are explanatory of the word "taught." Hence, to be drawn by the Father is to be "taught" by the Father and to be taught by the Father means you must have "heard" and "learned" from the Father.

Christ argues repeatedly that while He has taught - the Jews have not heard. All drawn do not come to Him , All taught do not hear, but those who have been drawn, and who have heard, and have been taught - do come.

However, those in verse 64 had not been drawn, taught, heard and learned by the Father as Jesus explicitly states in verse 65.

Nothing in John 6:45 says 'Have not been drawn".

Vs 44 applies to all mankind - saved and lost "
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

The only ones that "CAN come" to Him are those drawn. But the text does NOT say "All Drawn WILL come" for He "DRaws ALL unto HIM" John 12:52 and yet "HE came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT" John 1

Christ says of them

Matt 13
"13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."


Matthew 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me

." All have physical ears but not all have "ears to hear" as Jesus says that is distinctly GIVEN by God whereas it is not given to others by God even though both are standing in front of Christ physically hearing what He is teaching and trying to comprend what they have heard with the physical ear.

Not sure why you are making my point. How is that helping you?

It means that the formula is DRAW, and Hear, and Taught, And then will Come.

As you point out above - not all taught will choose to hear.



9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.:

Matt 13
"13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

Such does not originate from "flesh and blood" (Mt. 16:17) but is revealed INWARDLY to them by God.

This inward revelation is by divine fiat or word of command by God as much as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3

Again - you flip over to the point where the Arminian view does not differ.

In the fully qualified chain of Drawn, And Heard, and Taught - they will come and this work is of God.

But not all Drawn WILL choose to hear.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1.

"He is the light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY man" John 1

But the world "Loved darkness rather than light" John 3:19


It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

What you MUST do to reject this plain exegetical based truth is:

1. Redirect this to be EXTERNAL work by "flesh and blood" preachers rather the INTERNAL work of God alone.

Not even remotely true.

I claim that the "Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- and not "just those who happen to have a missionary".

This won't work because those in verse 64 both heard and learned ("disicples") and yet Christ denied they had been drawn by the Father (v. 65).

He does not say "heard and learned but not drawn" or even "not drawn" alone in vs 64 or 65.

I think we both know that you simply "quote you" for that much needed salient point.

As usual - proof for Calvinism is "injected into the text" it cannot be read from it.

2. Try to convince that SOME of the "ALL" are not taught of God when Isaiah says "ALL" are taught of God leaving no exceptions.

Isaiah said "THEY shall ALL be taught of God" .


Jer 31:31-33 says that God teaches those under the New Covenant writing "His LAW upon the mind and heart".

1John 2 says that the Holy Spirit "teaches you" in the form of "His anointing".

John 16 shows the Work of the Holy Spirit in reaching ALL the World convicting all - convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment.

But no Arminian or Calvinist claims that ALL the world will then go on to learn of Christ "Take my yoke upon you and LEARN of Me" Matt 11.

It is only those who CHOOSE to take that yoke that will continue to hear and learn.

"I stand at the door and KNOCK - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
As it turns out - those who DO come to Christ ARE NOT an exception to the rule "no man CAN come to Me UNLESS the Father draws Him". They are a perfect illustration of the rule rather than an exception to it.

You are directly contradicting the words of Christ to the contrary!

You have to "make stuff up" to leap to that conclusion.

I am simply stating the obvious the SAINTS do not COME to Christ without being drawn (all the lost that then come to Christ had to first be drawn)

and neither do the wicked. "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

This is incredibly obvious and fits the text perfectly.

That you can take text and wrench it so far from what is state to make it be an exact contradiction is a testimony to the power in Calvinism to edit text.

He says "NO MAN CAN"

That tiny snipped you get right.

I admit that He says "NO MAN CAN come to ME UNLESS he is drawn by the Father".

This is true of the saints -- obviously.

And of the wicked -- obviously.

Neither group "CAN COME to Christ without being drawn"

while you claim ALL MEN CAN because ALL MEN are drawn when Christ

Indeed Christ said "I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32 -- that is Christ saying it - not me.

Unless you want to admit that He was Arminian in doctrine.

Christ
not only denies all men can but gives examples of such men in the very context (Jn. 6:36, 41-43, 64-65).

Christ said NO one CAN come to Him UNLESS they are drawn.

Even you cannot point to a single case of someone who is NOT DRAWN coming to Christ.

It just does not get any easier than this if you are not dedicated to editing the text to some extreme point.

It is possible that this is just your way of agreeing disagreeably - but I don't see how you can imagine a way around this obvious point from the text itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Who said anything about men doing the teaching? YOU, not me.

It was YOU that DENIED this was DIVINE teaching not me. I simply pointed out that the text explicitly states that it is "GOD" doing the teaching and thus the teaching is DIVINE in origin NOT Human in origin. You have but only two choices of the origin of this teaching (1) Divine; (2) Human. YOU are denying the source that is explicitly stated - "GOD"

This teaching does not origiate with a HUMAN teacher but with "GOD" and therefore it iis DIVINE teaching. You are playing games and every reader on this forun knows what you are doing.

Yes, it says "every man" that has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. It is the man that has the responsibility to hear and learn.

Wrong again! Because it is something that man cannot do as Jesus explicitly states "NO MAN CAN" excepth THE FATHER draws him. Again, it is GOD that must do the drawing which is defined as "taught" in verse 45a. It is GOD that must "give it" (Jn. 6:65).

This kind of HEARING and LEARNING is INTERNAL and only something God can do as those in verse 64 PHYSICALLY heard and INTELLECTUAL learned from Christ as they are called "DISCIPLES" and yet Christ plainly states they had NEVER been drawn/taught by God (Jn. 6:65).

Thus draw/taught is ONLY SOMETHING THE FATHER CAN DO and it is an INTERNAL act that the Father does!

It is no different from High School, "every student" who makes the honor roll heard and learned from their teachers. Every student who flunked out did not hear and learn from their teachers. It is the student that is responsible to hear and learn what is being taught by the teacher.

Christ clearly contradicts your intepretative analogy in John 6:64-65 as they were His students and yet he says the underlying problem to their unbelief was due to the fact the Father had not "given it" unto them. He had not given them the ability to come to him by faith as it is faith they were missing. They had never been DRAWN by the Father as verse 65 merely repeats verse 44. They had never been "taught" of God as "taught" equals "draw" and thus they had never "heard" and "learned" OF THE FATHER as that is the clear meaning of John 6:65:

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Tnerefore, "NO MAN CAN" repudiates your interpretative theory that ALL MAN CAN and/or this is HUMAN ABILITY/RESPONSIBLITY as "draw/taught/learn/heard are all dervied soley from "GOD!

Therefore, the only "ALL" that is drawn are those who come to Christ in faith as those in John 6:64-65 were NOT DRAWN by the Father.

Every reader on this forum can see you interpretation directly contradicts the very words of Christ!

 

[The Biblicist]

You have to "make stuff up" to leap to that conclusion.

I am simply stating the obvious the SAINTS do not COME to Christ without being drawn (all the lost that then come to Christ had to first be drawn)

Those coming to Christ are the EXCEPTION to the universal rule that "NO MAN CAN"! The words "NO MAN CAN" is a UNIVERSAL DENIAL whereas "EXCEPT the Father...draw" is the ONLY EXCEPTION to this universal rule. If a man comes it has been "given unto him of the Father" (Jn. 6:65) whereas those it was NOT GIVEN to those in Jn. 6:65 so your interpetation of John 12:32 is equally false as John 6:64-65 declares some had NEVER BEEN drawn/taught/given by the Father. However, "ALL" who have been drawn/taught DO COME TO CHRIST (Jn. 6:45).

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Here are "SOME" that NEVER had been drawn/taught by the Father and thus the "all" in John 12:32 cannot possibly mean every human being without exception but refers to the same "all" who are "taught" (Jn. 6:45) which includes GENTILE elect (Jn. 12:21-32). You fail to interpret by the context.

This is incredibly obvious and fits the text perfectly.

This OUT OF IMMEDIATE CONTEXT DIVERSION merely proves that only those DRAWN/TAUGHT by God come to Christ and these are not of that "ALL" just as those in John 6:64-65 were not of that "ALL" just as those in John 6:36 and 41-43 were not of that "ALL".

Christ does not split man into two groups (wicked and saints) in John 6 but rather he inlcudes ALL HUMANS in the universal negative "NO MAN can" as there are no saints in this group as "NO MAN CAN" is refering to them in their UNBELIEVING condition as NONE come to Christ in that state thus are in unbelieve as in John 6:64.

I admit that He says "NO MAN CAN come to ME UNLESS he is drawn by the Father".

This is true of the saints -- obviously.

And of the wicked -- obviously.

Neither group "CAN COME to Christ without being drawn"

There are not TWO GROUPS (saints/wicked) being considered in the UNIVERSAL NEGATIVE but ALL MANKIND as this is a UNIVERSAL inclusion "NO MAN" does not omit any of mankind. Those drawn/taught DO COME (v. 45) as those not drawn do not come (vv. 64-65)

Indeed Christ said "I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32 -- that is Christ saying it - not me.

You are pitting Christ against Christ by your inferred interpretation of "all" in John 12:32 as Christ explicitly cites "some" who "never" had been drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:64-65).

Christ's words are perfectly harmonize in John 12:32 with John 6:64-65 when the "all" of John 12:32 is interpreted as the same "all" of John 6:45a which EXCLUDES "some" in Johni 6:64-65 but includes "ALL" who are drawn and given by the Father.

Furthermore, you completely ignore CONTEXT in John 12:21-32 as the context is dealing with a KIND of mankind that Jews excluded "Greeks" who were coming to Christ and thus "all" in John 12:32 means "all" without distinction of race, class or gender as in Revelation 5:9 description of ALL the elect.

 

[The Biblicist]

I do that because I prefer to keep the issues at "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" - and point out the flaws in the systems - rather than the practice of ad hominem and against the person who posts.

Why is this post on the John 6:37-65 thread? Please repost on the proper thread where we are dealing with that subject rather than trying to derail this thead.

If that thread no longer eixsts then start one on John 15:16 but don't derail this thread.