Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

[Winman]

Finally. Winman speaks. I was 'worried' not having seen a post from you on this thread for 24 hours. Unheard of.

So now God the Father 'attempts' -- gives it a go; tries hard; makes a rigorous effort -- to reach all men, yet fails in His 'attempt.'

That may be so with manmade gods, but not so with the Lord God who rules the heavens and earth and all it contains.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."

Once again you 'attempt' unsuccessfully to use your same old tired illustration comparing the Lord God Almighty to a sinful, finite human school teacher....an illustration which I have refuted.

But let the Lord speak on the matter:

"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"

Winman responds: 'To my 5th grade school teacher, Lord.'

Do Calvinists even read the Bible? Because if you did, you would know what I said is accurate.

Try turning to Proverbs. That will be about in the middle of your Bible when you find it.

Turn to chapter 1. Now read.

Pro 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Read especially the verses I have bolded. God says he has called, but these simple and foolish persons refused. He stretched out his hands to them, but none of them regarded. They would not listen to his counsel or his reproofs, for these foolish persons hated knowledge and did not CHOOSE the fear of the Lord. The word CHOOSE shows that they could have listened if they had wanted to, they were not unable.

These persons turned away from God, and that is what will slay them, and destroy them.

Now, you have probably never read this scripture before, because it refutes Calvinism. But yes, God ATTEMPTS to teach men and save them, but some refuse to listen. These will be destroyed.

But not all men are like this, read vs. 33. Those men who listen and learn from God shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

 

[The Biblicist]

You gave your opinion but you gave no evidence to support your oppinion or to prove my assertion was wrong! I did give evidence to support my position and you simply ignore it and throw out your unfounded opinion!

Let me break this down in baby steps for you:

1. Is verse 45a a quotation of the Old Testament? yes or no?

2. Does this quotation speak explicitly about what God does? Yes or no?

3. What aspect in verse 44 refers to what God does? "draw" or "come"?

4. Isn't coming to Christ the consequence of what God first does which only God can do? Yes or no?

The hardest thing to defend is the denial of the obivous! It is obvious that the scripture quotation is called upon and used by Christ to affirm what God does in verse 44 rather than what men do as a way of consequence to what God does.

The issue is so simple! Verse 44 is about what God must do to obtain a certain consequence by men. The Isaiah quote is about what God must do to bring about the same consequences. Man has to do with the consequences but "draw" and "taught" have to do with what God does.


1. "Draw" in verse 44 is synonmous with "taught" in verse 45a - correct?

2. "Taught" in verse 45a is synonmous with BOTH "heard" and "learned" in verse 45b as no one can claim to have been taught to teach anyone else if they have not BOTH "heard" what is said and "learned" what it means. Correct?'

3. Conclusion - The ONLY ONES drawn are those who have both heard and learned and "WHOSOVER" has been thus drawn/taught do come to Christ. So "ALL" drawn do come just as "ALL" given do come. All who do not come where never drawn/taught/heard/learned of the Father.

NOTE; Again, let me point out to the unbiased reader that both "heard" and "learn" have direct reference to "taught" not "draw" which should be rather obvious as "taught" is the immediate point of reference since hearing and learning have to do with being taught. Furthermore, that verse 45a is a scripture quotation brought in by Christ to affirm the work that only God can do in verse 44 as "no man can" apart from that work of God. Likewise, "taught of God" is a scripture quotation to affirm his assertion of what God does not what man does.
__________________

NONE and I mean NONE have been able to give a reasonable rational response to the problem I present above. Jarvis attacks my person. Bob responds irrational. The truth still stands untouched.

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree that no man - not those who would one day be saved, and not those who will never be saved .. can "of themselves' come to Christ.

But the text cant be bent to say "no man can come to ME - so a few of them I draw to me and thus enable to come".

Bob, you and Jarvis seemingly cannot address the facts of the text without forcing your own personal opinions into it. Your whole argument is built upon your own personal opinion while complete avoiding and ignoring what the text actually states. My argument is wholly built upon what the text actually states. The difference between us is that your whole approach is EISGETICAL as you read into the text your own opinions and refuse to acknowledge what it actually says. For example, the following statements are completely irrational IF the text is the final authority.

Taught is the result of those Drawn - choosing to hear and accepting what they hear - so that they learn and then come to Christ.

The text provides absolutely no basis for your personal opinion above - NONE! You have to READ INTO it every point you make above! It is obvious to any objective reader that verse 44 places emphasis on the work of the Father as the cause whereas coming is the consequence. It is obvious that the Isaiah quotation again places emphasis on the work of the Father in verse 44 and "taught" is equal to "draw" - so obvioius as no other contextual based reason for Christ even quoting Isaiah but to reffirm the Father's work in verse 44. It is soooooo obvious that BOTH "heard" and "learn" have to do with the word "taught" and Jesus is explaining what "taught" by the Father MEANS. It is so obvious that it is IMPOSSIBLE to teach or be taught if BOTH "heard" and "Learn" are not inclusive together in defining "taught" of God as NNE CAN CLAIM THEY TAUGHT OTHER OR HAVE BEEN TAUGHT unless they BOTH "have heard" and "have Learned."

The truth is that neither you or Jarvis can look at the text for what it say without READING INTO the text your own personal bias. The responses by you and Jarvis are irrational. However, neither of you have anything other than irrationality to escape the obvious.

 

[The Biblicist]

Let me break this down in baby steps for you:

1. Is verse 45a a quotation of the Old Testament? yes or no?

2. Does this quotation speak explicitly about what God does? Yes or no?

3. What aspect in verse 44 refers to what God does? "draw" or "come"?

4. Isn't coming to Christ the consequence of what God first does which only God can do? Yes or no?

The hardest thing to defend is the denial of the obivous! It is obvious that the scripture quotation is called upon and used by Christ to affirm what God does in verse 44 rather than what men do as a way of consequence to what God does.

The issue is so simple! Verse 44 is about what God must do to obtain a certain consequence by men. The Isaiah quote is about what God must do to bring about the same consequences. Man has to do with the consequences but "draw" and "taught" have to do with what God does.


1. "Draw" in verse 44 is synonmous with "taught" in verse 45a - correct?

2. "Taught" in verse 45a is synonmous with BOTH "heard" and "learned" in verse 45b as no one can claim to have been taught to teach anyone else if they have not BOTH "heard" what is said and "learned" what it means. Correct?'

3. Conclusion - The ONLY ONES drawn are those who have both heard and learned and "WHOSOVER" has been thus drawn/taught do come to Christ. So "ALL" drawn do come just as "ALL" given do come. All who do not come where never drawn/taught/heard/learned of the Father.

NOTE; Again, let me point out to the unbiased reader that both "heard" and "learn" have direct reference to "taught" not "draw" which should be rather obvious as "taught" is the immediate point of reference since hearing and learning have to do with being taught. Furthermore, that verse 45a is a scripture quotation brought in by Christ to affirm the work that only God can do in verse 44 as "no man can" apart from that work of God. Likewise, "taught of God" is a scripture quotation to affirm his assertion of what God does not what man does.

With this repeated statement again, I bow out of this discussion simply because it is impossible to deal with persons who either resort to personal attacks or repititious irrational arguments as their only defense. Yes, I realize the nature of the responses to this post that will come.

 

[Van]

As anyone can see, the Calvinist totally rewrites the Bible to pour his man-made doctrine into scripture.

According to the Calvinist, draw means give.

According to the Calvinist, draw mean taught.

According to the Calvinist, come to Me means come to know.

Just read your bibles folks, and the following is what you find:

1) To be given by the Father to Christ for salvation is to be set apart spiritually in Christ, thus to come to Jesus refers to this transfer from the realm of darkness to the kingdom of God.

2) Being given transfers the person into Christ, thus all given for salvation do come to and arrive in Christ. Therefore if not given by God, no one is transferred into Christ, thus no one comes to and arrives in Christ unless given.

3) Next the Calvinist contrasts being drawn (attracted by the gospel) with being given (God putting someone spiritually in Christ.) Two entirely different things.

 

[Van]

No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 NASB95)

The Calvinist applies mistakenly the phrase "and I will raise him up on the last day" to the one drawn. However the conditional applies to the one drawn, i.e. unless the Father draws him, no one can come to Me.

Thus 100% of those that come to Me were (a) drawn by the Father, and (b) will be raised up on the last day. But the verse does not say 100% of those drawn come to Me and will be raised up on the last day.

Lets talk baseball. No one can make the team unless they try-out, and they will get their name stitched on their uniform. Does everyone that tries out make the team? Nope. Does everyone that tries out get their name stitched on their uniform? Nope.

It is really pretty simple.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Bob, you and Jarvis seemingly cannot address the facts of the text without forcing your own personal opinions into it. Your whole argument is built upon your own personal opinion while complete avoiding and ignoring what the text actually states.

You've made this argument before...and it's been responded to numerous times. Not more than maybe two months ago, you made pretty much the same argument and many people (myself included) answered you pretty much verse by verse...

It's not that no one has an answer...it's that we haven't bought your arguments yet, so you think if you simply rehash them, we should be convinced. We've responded to these arguments before...it's not that we don't have answers!

Again, I think your failure to understand this is hubris.

 

[The Biblicist]

As anyone can see, the Calvinist totally rewrites the Bible to pour his man-made doctrine into scripture.

According to the Calvinist, draw means give.

Please don't intentionally misrepresent us! No one has ever said that. That is simply your own invention and a false accusation. Giving and drawing are not the same. All I have said is that all who are drawn are also the same all who are given.

I have provided a detailed exegetical contextual basis for my position and you, Jarvis, Winman and Skandelon have responded by giving only your personal opinions which have no exegetical basis and indeed are demonstrated false by the context. If you don't attack me personally, you misrepresent me, if you don't misrepresent me you make irrational responses that have no exegetical or contextual basis.

Your personal definitions have been thoroughly exposed by sound exegesis to be plain nonsense. The exegetical meaning of "come" has been contextually defined in verses 35-36, 64-65. The exegetical meaning of "given" has been contextually defined by John 17:2 that repudiates your "spiritual in Christ" nonsense. The exegetical meaning of "draw" has been contextually defined in verses 44-45, 64-65 to refer to only what the Father can do INTERNALLY that effectually results in coming to Christ in faith.

You simply keep repeating absolute nonsense and neither Bob, Jarvis or you EVER deal with the EXEGETICAL BASED EVIDENCE i have presented but rather just repeat personal opinions or exegetically proven errors or make personal attacks - period!

 

[The Biblicist]

You've made this argument before...and it's been responded to numerous times.

Wrong! I have demonstrated my arguments by sound exegetical based expository based facts that neither you, Bob, Van, Winman or Skandelon have been unable to disprove. Your responses have been proven to be nothing but personal opinions or interpretations that are exegetically wrong and proven to be wrong and you have no other response but to attack me personally or repeat the same disproven trivial.

Deal with exegetical based expositiory facts I presented rather than repeat the very same things that have been proven to be exegeticaly false. Deal with the exegetical reasons that demonstrate your ideas are false and misleading and contrary to the text. That none of you have done - period!

THIS IS AN ISSUE OF PROPER HEMENUETICS, proper principles of interpetation and you, van, Bob, Skandelon and Winman all have one thing in common - EISGESIS is the basis of every single argument you provide in response and I have demonstrated that every single argument given by your group VIOLATES the context and you do nothing but either attack me personally, repeat the same nonsense without addressing the contextual evidence it is wrong, or ignore the facts and go right on your own way.

Yes, I would like to quit this discussion forum but there are those on this forum who do not want me to quit. I get frustrated with irrationality, intentional perversion of my responses, personal attacks and the like but allowing you guys to simply spread absolute distortions is also unbearable.

 

[psalms109:31]

It is a shame to use a verse that is calling anyone to listen and learn to have life. To become the new creation chosen before the foundation of the world. There is no one who is the new creation who will come to Christ if they don't listen and learn.

Those who walk away from His word will never be changed.

Jesus and the Father is one. His word is not His own, but the Fathers. Jesus word is Spirit and life we are missing and no one has without His word. We are all under the same curse, not one is different from the other, except the one who listens and learns will be changed into the new creation. We listen and learn from Jesus because He and the Father is one we will come to have life and find rest for our souls.

We all are dead everyone one of us we are no different, we all are all under the same curse.

When His word wakes us up, because death is being asleep. What is inside us all is eternal. We listen and learn. Eat His flesh, drink His blood for our life. We must eat and drink to be alive physically so we have to Spiritually and Jesus Christ life He lived and the words He spoke is Spiritual food.

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Scripture that is used to draw us to Christ men use for their own agenda.

 

[Winman]

As anyone can see, the Calvinist totally rewrites the Bible to pour his man-made doctrine into scripture.

According to the Calvinist, draw means give.

According to the Calvinist, draw mean taught.

According to the Calvinist, come to Me means come to know.

Just read your bibles folks, and the following is what you find:

1) To be given by the Father to Christ for salvation is to be set apart spiritually in Christ, thus to come to Jesus refers to this transfer from the realm of darkness to the kingdom of God.

2) Being given transfers the person into Christ, thus all given for salvation do come to and arrive in Christ. Therefore if not given by God, no one is transferred into Christ, thus no one comes to and arrives in Christ unless given.

3) Next the Calvinist contrasts being drawn (attracted by the gospel) with being given (God putting someone spiritually in Christ.) Two entirely different things.

I would bet most Calvinists would understand the difference between being drawn and being given, it is just a rare few like Biblicist who cannot think outside his presuppositions that cannot see this.

You could tell him a thousand times and it will just go in one ear and out the other. He thinks he can't be wrong.

 

[Protestant]

No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me, draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 NASB95)

The Calvinist applies mistakenly the phrase "and I will raise him up on the last day" to the one drawn. However the conditional applies to the one drawn, i.e. unless the Father draws him, no one can come to Me.

Thus 100% of those that come to Me were (a) drawn by the Father, and (b) will be raised up on the last day. But the verse does not say 100% of those drawn come to Me and will be raised up on the last day.

Lets talk baseball. No one can make the team unless they try-out, and they will get their name stitched on their uniform. Does everyone that tries out make the team? Nope. Does everyone that tries out get their name stitched on their uniform? Nope.

It is really pretty simple.

Take heed of your fellow zealot, the Arminian Inspector General, who is both Logician and Church Historian. According to his principles of logic your propositional truth, "100% of those that come to me were (a) drawn by the Father, and (b) will be raised up on the last day" is 'illogical.' I used that same proposition in my post # 13. By so doing I heard the crackling embers of his Inquisitional fires igniting.

You said, "But the verse does not say 100% of those drawn come to Me and will be raised up on the last day."

That is correct!

Satan draws many into churches worldwide. The Bible calls these 'tares sown among the wheat.' They will be burned with everlasting fire.

However, those drawn by the Father will come to Christ necessarily and necessarily be raised glorified in the Resurrection.

Re: "Let's talk baseball." No. Let's talk Bible. Baseball is of works. Salvation is all of grace.

Please do not repeat the errors of Winman who insists on using human analogies which do nothing but bring the Most High God down to sinful man's level.

 

[Protestant]

Do Calvinists even read the Bible? Because if you did, you would know what I said is accurate.

Try turning to Proverbs. That will be about in the middle of your Bible when you find it.

Turn to chapter 1. Now read.

Pro 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Read especially the verses I have bolded. God says he has called, but these simple and foolish persons refused. He stretched out his hands to them, but none of them regarded. They would not listen to his counsel or his reproofs, for these foolish persons hated knowledge and did not CHOOSE the fear of the Lord. The word CHOOSE shows that they could have listened if they had wanted to, they were not unable.

These persons turned away from God, and that is what will slay them, and destroy them.

Now, you have probably never read this scripture before, because it refutes Calvinism. But yes, God ATTEMPTS to teach men and save them, but some refuse to listen. These will be destroyed.

But not all men are like this, read vs. 33. Those men who listen and learn from God shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

These Scriptures teach exactly what we Calvinists have been saying all along. Unless the Father infallibly and necessarily draws sinners to Christ (i.e., the Elect chosen before the foundation of the world), they will remain obstinate and hateful, choosing instead a false god/gods of their vain imaginations.

Please note this verse: "Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

By this we learn that the Lord will save a remnant of Jews. Their salvation is attributed 100% to God's gracious mercy. It is He who will infallibly give them the Holy Spirit needed for them to know, understand, believe and obey His eternal truths.

Furthermore, it must be disconcerting to discover that your 'all-loving' God laughs at men's calamity and refuses to help when they call upon Him.

Would that be your behavior with your children?

 

[Protestant]

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1.

It is obvious this is one of your favorite verses. Please give your interpretation.

I eagerly await your response as soon as your sacred sabbath concludes.

PS Are you allowed to use electricity and drive motor vehicles during your sabbath rest?

 

[The Biblicist]

I would bet most Calvinists would understand the difference between being drawn and being given, it is just a rare few like Biblicist who cannot think outside his presuppositions that cannot see this.

You could tell him a thousand times and it will just go in one ear and out the other. He thinks he can't be wrong.

First, none can deny that "ALL" who are given do in fact come. None of you can dispute that "given" is presented as the cause where as "SHALL come" is grammatically presented as the consequence. So all your distorted views that reverse that order exegetically false or displays of pure eisegesis.

Hence, "ALL" given equal the elect that were chosen by the Father and given to him before the world began as none of the elect will fail to come to Christ and be saved. Even Bob who rejects eternal security cannot reverse the grammatical order in John 6:39-37 to making coming the cause of being given as that would be plainly perverting God's word specified by the grammar used.

Hence, "ALL" those given to the Son by the Father was not conditioned on coming to Christ but coming is clearly and grammatically conditioned upon being given by the Father for the purpose to come to Christ.

Hence, being given refers to God ETERNAL WILL of Purpose and this is plainly spelled out in verses 38-39 as the Son is claiming that his very purpose in coming to earth was to carry out this specific aspect of the Father's will that none given should perish. PLEASE NOTE VERSES 38-39 IS REFERRING TO THE SON's ABILITY TO ACCOMPLISH THE WILL OF THE FATHER IN THIS SPECIFIC MATTER rather than our will as Bob and other rejectors of OSAS presume, pervert, distort this text and its plain words and grammar.

Hence, "giving" has to do with God's eternal purpose election by the Father giving to the Son a certain chosen people before the world began. It is those "given" that "shall come" and NONE SHALL BE LOST.

In contrast, the drawing of the Father has to do with the POWER of God in accomplishing that all given will all come as clearly stated in verses 37-39. The POWER does not exist in man "no man can come" but only in God (v. 44). ALL given do in fact "shall come" because God's power working in those "given" obtains that end.

The nature of this power INSIDE the elect/all that were given is INSTRUCTIVE by divine revelation. That is, the condition of the unregenerated heart is described in Epheians 4:18 as "darkened....ignorance....darkened" and by divine fiat that darkness is removed, exactly as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3, Paul says God speaks the "light of knowledge" into existence within the darkened heart of man (2 Cor. 4:6). You cannot possibly deny that this direct analogy provided by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 is in direct relationship with God's active work within those saved. Neither can you possibly deny Christ's affirmation that such divine revelation is solely the work of God and not obtained by "flesh and blood" as clearly stated by Christ in Matthew 16:16-17.

What you fella's intentionaly do, and deceptively do, and wrongly do is to set forth an interpretation of John 6:44-45 that DENIES this work is the exclusive INTERNAL work of God alone but rather YOU make it a JOINT work between God and man with the emphasis upon the power of man's will.

Three summary points I set forth on John 6:44-45 and the relationship between "draw" and "taught" as synonyms cannot be honestly disputed only DISHONESTLY disputed. The relationship between the Biblical quotation containing "taught of God" and both "HAVE heard and....HAVE learned" cannot be honestly disputed but only DISHONESTLY disputed simply because "taught" has no meaning apart from BOTH having heard and having learned. No one is taught who has not "heard" just as no one is taught who has not "learned." It requires both and that is precisely how Jesus is defining "taught" in his explanation.

Therefore, the "ALL" drawn in John 12:32 EQUALS the "ALL" taught in verse 45that EQUALS the "ALL" given in verses 37-39. John 6:64-65 proves this is true because "there are some" the Father NEVER drew who yet made a profession of faith among those called his "disicples" and thus had heard with the PHYICAL ear but had not heard from the Father. They had learned from Christ with their mind through their EXTERNAL senses but had never "learned" from the Father in their heart.

"ALL" Whom the Father gives (election) to the Son shall come to him (Wll of Purpose) because it rests solely upon Christ's power to perform the Father's will - vv. 37-39

"ALL" whom the Father draws (Effectually quickens and calls) by HIS POWER to come to Christ shall be "ALL" taught of God so that they "have" heard and "have" learned shall also come to Christ because they are one and the same people.

 

[Winman]

These Scriptures teach exactly what we Calvinists have been saying all along. Unless the Father infallibly and necessarily draws sinners to Christ (i.e., the Elect chosen before the foundation of the world), they will remain obstinate and hateful, choosing instead a false god/gods of their vain imaginations.

Baloney, these verses do not say any such thing. There is not one word that says they are UNABLE to repent.

Please note this verse: "Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

By this we learn that the Lord will save a remnant of Jews. Their salvation is attributed 100% to God's gracious mercy. It is He who will infallibly give them the Holy Spirit needed for them to know, understand, believe and obey His eternal truths.

Actually, these verses absolutely refute Calvinism, because they show that man has the ability to turn or repent BEFORE he is regenerated, and that AFTER he turns or repents God gives him the Holy Spirit and regenerates him.

Furthermore, it must be disconcerting to discover that your 'all-loving' God laughs at men's calamity and refuses to help when they call upon Him.

Would that be your behavior with your children?

Wow, just wow. Some of you Calvinists seem delighted that God (in your view) is cruel and enjoys destroying men for being the very thing he cursed them to be, sinners.

I agree God will laugh at the calamity of evil men, but these are men that God sincerely called to salvation, men that Jesus died for, but these men hated God and rejected him. These men were not born doomed to destruction as Calvinism teaches, they could have chosen the fear of God and been saved.

It makes sense that if a man believes God is cruel and cold-hearted, that is what the man himself shall be. What kind of person would mock God for being "all loving"??

 

[The Biblicist]

The Contextual meaning of "cometh to me"

The words "cometh to me" in John 6 means "come in faith" or "partaking by faith." This is made abundantly clear in John 6:35-36 and here are the indisputable facts:

1. John 6:1-51 is all about Christ as the "bread of life" that must be partaken to have eternal life. No LIQUID or DRINK is mentioned in these verses at all. Drinking is not mentioned until after John 6:51 where the "blood" of Christ is brought into the context as something to drink.

2. Eating this bread for eternal life is placed in exact parallel with believing or partaking by faith in Christ - vv. 35-36; 47-48

3. In John 6:35 although no liquid had been introduced up to this point, "thirst" is used in parallel with "hunger" which are both eliminated by PARTAKING of Christ as "THE BREAD OF LIFE". Hence, both "cometh" and "believeth" are also used in parallel with each other in order to define how "thirst" and "hunger" are elminated through PARTAKING of Christ.

4. The words "cometh to me" cannot possibly refer phsical arrival to the physical presence of Christ as this would deny anyone living past the cross could "come to Christ"!

5. Matthew 11:33 uses the word "come" in the very same sense as Jesus uses it in John 6. Here also. rest from the burden of sin is eliminated by simply coming to Christ. Coming PARTAKES of the "peace" found in Christ and Paul plainly says "we have peace with God THROUGH FAITH" - Rom. 5:1 - rather than PHYSICAL ARRIVAL. If we interpret "coming to me" as "SPIRITUAL ARRIVAL" there can be no such thing apart from faith as it is impossible for anyone that "cometh" to God WITHOUT FAITH - Heb. 11:6.

CONCLUSION: so anyway you define "cometh to me" must INCLUDE the idea of "coming to Christ in/by faith."

APPLICATION: Hence, "come to me" in John 6:44 means "come to me in/by faith". Thus "draw" is God's enablement to come to Christ in faith - meaning - faith is the work of God not of men, as "no man can come to me" in faith. That is precisely how Christ applied verse 44 to those in verse 64. They were still without faith because God had not enabled them or "given" it to them - v. 65. This was not a new condition, but Christ knew they were without faith "FROM THE BEGINNING" when they professed to be followers of Christ.

Remember, the context is NOT about the relationship between the believer and the gospel or gospel ministry. The context is about the work that no man can do but God and thus itis about God's work in making sure "ALL" He gives to Christ do in fact come to Christ and NONE of that "ALL" be lost. John 6:37-39 reveals the PURPOSED WILL of God to obtain that end whereas John 6:44-45 reveals the POWER of God to obtain that end.

 

[Winman]

First, none can deny that "ALL" who are given do in fact come. None of you can dispute that "given" is presented as the cause where as "SHALL come" is grammatically presented as the consequence. So all your distorted views that reverse that order exegetically false or displays of pure eisegesis.

This is correct, Jesus said all that the Father gives him shall come to him.

Hence, "ALL" given equal the elect that were chosen by the Father and given to him before the world began as none of the elect will fail to come to Christ and be saved. Even Bob who rejects eternal security cannot reverse the grammatical order in John 6:39-37 to making coming the cause of being given as that would be plainly perverting God's word specified by the grammar used.

They certainly were chosen before the foundation of the world, but I am not familiar with scripture that says they were given before the foundation of the world. Perhaps you can show that scripture?

Hence, "ALL" those given to the Son by the Father was not conditioned on coming to Christ but coming is clearly and grammatically conditioned upon being given by the Father for the purpose to come to Christ.

It simply says "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me". It does not say that coming is conditioned upon being given as you say, nor does it say being given is conditioned upon coming to Christ, it simply says all that the Father gives Jesus shall come to him. I do not add to what it says.

Hence, being given refers to God ETERNAL WILL of Purpose and this is plainly spelled out in verses 38-39 as the Son is claiming that his very purpose in coming to earth was to carry out this specific aspect of the Father's will that none given should perish. PLEASE NOTE VERSES 38-39 IS REFERRING TO THE SON's ABILITY TO ACCOMPLISH THE WILL OF THE FATHER IN THIS SPECIFIC MATTER rather than our will as Bob and other rejectors of OSAS presume, pervert, distort this text and its plain words and grammar.

I agree that it is the Father's will that none given should perish.

But you are wrong about men's will not being involved, Jesus said it was his Father's will that all who see the Son and believe on him should not perish.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, it is God the Father's will that none he gives to Jesus should perish, and it is Jesus's will to carry out the will of his Father. But it is also the will of the Father that those which BELIEVE on Jesus should have everlasting life and that Jesus should raise them up on the last day. So the will of man is involved as well.

Hence, "giving" has to do with God's eternal purpose election by the Father giving to the Son a certain chosen people before the world began. It is those "given" that "shall come" and NONE SHALL BE LOST.

Again, please show that these persons were GIVEN before the foundation of the world, I am not familiar with that scripture.

In contrast, the drawing of the Father has to do with the POWER of God in accomplishing that all given will all come as clearly stated in verses 37-39. The POWER does not exist in man "no man can come" but only in God (v. 44). ALL given do in fact "shall come" because God's power working in those "given" obtains that end.

Yes, all given who come to Jesus were drawn. But this does not say that all drawn shall come. You just can't seem to grasp this.

All fish that were caught were drawn in on a fishing line, but not all fish drawn in on a fishing line were caught. Some fish fought and resisted and jumped off the line.

Why can't you understand such a simple analogy? I actually showed you a video of a fish being pulled into a boat that fought and resisted, jumped off the line and out of the boat. This is perfectly normal.

The nature of this power INSIDE the elect or all that were given is INSTRUCTIVE by divine revelation. That is, the condition of the unregenerated heart is described in Epheians 4:18 as "darkened....ignorance....darkened" and by divine fiat, exactly as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3, Paul says God speak the "light of knowledge" into existence within the darkened heart of man (2 Cor. 4:6). You cannot possibly deny this direct analogy provided by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 in direct relationship with God's active work within those saved. Neither can you possibly deny Christ's affirmation that such divine revelation is solely the work of God and not obtained by "flesh and blood" as clearly stated by Christ in Matthew 16:16-17.

Yes, the unregenerated man is ignorant. That is why God must teach the man. When men hear the gospel they are instructed that they are sinners, and that the wages of sin is death. They are instructed that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and that if they will trust him he will save them. Those men who listen and learn from the Father are now enabled by knowledge to trust Jesus and be saved.

In Romans 10:14 Paul asks how any man can believe in Jesus unless he has HEARD of him. He does not imply any other cause of inability except ignorance. Paul implies that all that is necessary for a man to be saved is that a preacher needs to come and preach the gospel to them. Once a man has heard the gospel and been taught, he is now able to place his trust in Jesus.

The scriptures NEVER say a man has to be regenerated to have the ability to believe. You cannot produce a single verse of scripture to support this. And that is important, if your view is correct, there should be scripture to support it. There is NONE.

What you fella's intentionaly do, and deceptively do, and wrongly do is to set forth an interpretation of John 6:44-45 that DENIES this work is the exclusive INTERNAL work but rather a JOINT work between God and man with the emphasis upon the power of man's will.

No, we read verses 44-45 literally for what they actually say. It is you that is adding to the word of God.

Three summary points I set forth on John 6:44-45 and the relationship between "draw" and "taught" as synonyms cannot be honestly disputed only DISHONESTLY disputed. The relationship between the Biblical quotation containing "taught of God" and both "HAVE heard and....HAVE learned" cannot be honestly disputed but only DISHONESTLY disputed simply because "taught" has no meaning apart from BOTH having heard and having learned. No one is taught who has not "heard" just as no one is taught who has not "learned." It requires both and that is precisely how Jesus is defining "taught" in his explanation.

Drawn and taught are not the same thing. You can say this a thousand times, and you will be wrong a thousand times.

All men are drawn, but not all are taught. Some men refuse to listen when God calls them. Read Proverbs chapter 1;

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Did God draw these men? YES, he called them, he stretched out his hands to them, he literally begged them to come to him. That is drawing.

Was God able to teach them? NO, because they refused to listen to God, they set at nought all his counsel, and would not listen to his reproofs.

It is PLAIN AS DAY, but you refuse to see it. Drawing and being taught are not the same things whatsoever.

Therefore, the "ALL" drawn in John 12:32 EQUALS the "ALL" taught in verse 45that EQUALS the "ALL" given in verses 37-39. John 6:64-65 proves this is true because "there are some" the Father NEVER drew who yet made a profession of faith among those called his "disicples" and thus had heard with the PHYICAL ear but had not heard from the Father. They had learned from Christ with their mind through their EXTERNAL senses but had never "learned" from the Father in their heart.

No, John 12:32 says that if Jesus be lifted up, he will draw all men to him. But not all who are drawn listen or learn, and therefore not all come.

As for those given, I believe it refers to those God foreknew would believe in time. I believe God in his foreknowledge could foresee who would believe in time, and these are the persons he gives to Jesus. Jesus said "my sheep hear me", so this is what distinguishes Jesus's sheep, they LISTEN to him.

"ALL" Whom the Father gives (election) to the Son shall come to him (Wll of Purpose) because it rests solely upon Christ's power to perform the Father's will - vv. 37-39

I believe God the Father gives those he foreknew would believe on Jesus. These are persons like Nathanael who believed the scriptures and looked for the promised Messiah. Jesus saw him before he actually came to Jesus and believed.

"ALL" whom the Father draws (Effectually quickens and calls) by HIS POWER to come to Christ shall be "ALL" taught of God so that they "have" heard and "have" learned shall also come to Christ because they are one and the same people.

No, not all drawn learn or come to Jesus.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

You need to read this verse over and over again until you understand it. Not everyone who is drawn comes.

 

[Protestant]

Baloney, these verses do not say any such thing. There is not one word that says they are UNABLE to repent.

Actually, these verses absolutely refute Calvinism, because they show that man has the ability to turn or repent BEFORE he is regenerated, and that AFTER he turns or repents God gives him the Holy Spirit and regenerates him.

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

Have you never read, "Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord, and we shall be turned"?

Repentance is the gift of God to the Elect. "if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."

Instead you and all Arminians view repentance and faith your gifts to God.

How humble of you.

In summary: the verse in question commands repentance which the Lord will grant by pouring His Spirit unto [regenerating] His Elect.

Wow, just wow. Some of you Calvinists seem delighted that God (in your view) is cruel and enjoys destroying men for being the very thing he cursed them to be, sinners.

I agree God will laugh at the calamity of evil men,

How does it make you feel.....that on the one hand (as you say) God loves all men, but on the other hand (as you admit) laughs at their calamity?

I asked, Is this how you would treat your own children? You refused to respond.

but these are men that God sincerely called to salvation

The Lord indeed proclaimed the true way of salvation. However, the external general call of the Gospel saves no man. The proof lies in the fact that men preferred Jesus dead than alive.

men that Jesus died for

Jesus died solely for those given Him by the Father. Have you not read:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Are you now teaching those men at whom God is laughing are those same ones He has given Christ as their Savior? Are these the Elect whom Christ has not/will not lose?

These men were not born doomed to destruction as Calvinism teaches, they could have chosen the fear of God and been saved.

But your teaching, when examined beneath its sugar coated surface, is no different than the Bible truths which Calvinists teach.

You teach that God knows who will believe through foreknowledge.

By the same means God knows who will not believe.

Though God, who is all-powerful and all-wise, could have changed the outcome of those He foreknew would be damned due to unbelief (by using an infinite array of tools at His disposal) He chose not to.

What chance, pray tell, do the reprobate have in changing the foreknowledge of God?

And what, pray tell, is the purpose of God in bringing those unbelievers into the world whom God foreknew would never repent?

It makes sense that if a man believes God is cruel and cold-hearted, that is what the man himself shall be. What kind of person would mock God for being "all loving"??

I'll tell you what cruel is.

Cruel is the Father who sends His Son to die a horrific death which does not accomplish the purpose for which He was sent.

Cold-hearted is the Father who does not believe the shed blood of His Son actually saves those for whom Christ died.

Monstrous is the Father who has so little respect for the power of His Son's blood that He posits the ultimate reason for salvation in man's decision and not the blood shed for many Elect.

It is you, Winman, who portrays a cruel, coldhearted and monstrous God.

 

[The Biblicist]

This is correct, Jesus said all that the Father gives him shall come to him.



They certainly were chosen before the foundation of the world, but I am not familiar with scripture that says they were given before the foundation of the world. Perhaps you can show that scripture?



It simply says "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me". It does not say that coming is conditioned upon being given as you say, nor does it say being given is conditioned upon coming to Christ, it simply says all that the Father gives Jesus shall come to him. I do not add to what it says.

Grammatically, giving precedes coming. "SHALL" come is future tense. If giving were conditioned on coming it would say "all that cometh to me SHALL BE given to me by the Father." It does not say that. It says the very reverse. Hence, giving precedes coming and thus coming is conditioned by being given. A simple matter of the grammar.

Second, These come to the Son because they were previously given by the Father for that purpose. Note the use of the Father's will in verses 38-39. Thus this whole giving unto coming was DIVINE PURPOSE prioir to the coming of Christ. He said, "I CAME DOWN" to fulfill this very purposed will of the Father. Hence, this WILL OF PURPOSE preceded the incarnation. The only will of purpose that precedes the first coming of Christ in regard to the Father giving "ALL" of a certain class of men to Christ for salvation is being "chosen from the foundation of world to salvation" - 2 Thes. 2:13. If you can find anything but that in the Bible with those characteristics the show it.

I agree that it is the Father's will that none given should perish.

The wording is so airtight that it cannot possibly be denied without repudiating the very language.

But you are wrong about men's will not being involved, Jesus said it was his Father's will that all who see the Son and believe on him should not perish.

I am not denying that. What I am denying is the cause and effect relationship that you place on it. This passage denies that being given by the Father is conditioned upon coming to Christ (wherein the will of man occurs) but the exact reverse. Coming (inclusive of the will) is the consequence not the cause whereas being given is the cause for coming not the consequence.

What all of you fellas are missing is the fact that THIS CONTEXT is dealing with the work of the Father in connection with coming to Christ and establishing that it is His work that is causative in coming to Christ. Not the will of man, not the gospel but the ETERNAL PURPOSED WILL and POWER of the Father that secures coming to Christ.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes, it is God the Father's will that none he gives to Jesus should perish, and it is Jesus's will to carry out the will of his Father. But it is also the will of the Father that those which BELIEVE on Jesus should have everlasting life and that Jesus should raise them up on the last day. So the will of man is involved as well.

John 6:40 is the CONSEQUENTIAL CONCLUSION of verses 37-39 not the CAUSE as the Father's will is the cause. Also note, that the final portion of verse 40 has already been stated in the last clause of verse 39 as a CONSEQUENCE of the Father's will. Finally, obsere that "believeth" is SYNONOMOUS with "cometh to me" which is the consequence of being given not the cause. If you doubt "believeth" is inclusive of "cometh to me" then please look at Post #137 where I prove contextually that it is.

Yes, all given who come to Jesus were drawn. But this does not say that all drawn shall come. You just can't seem to grasp this.

What you fail to grasp is that verses 37-39 are in response to verse 36 and are explantory to those who have seen him and yet remain in unbelief because THEY WERE NEVER GIVEN BY THE FATHER TO COME TO CHRIST IN FAITH. This same group is the same ones that Jesus continues to address in verses 41-43What you continue to fail to grasp is that verses 41-43 addresses the very SAME PEOPLE. because THEY WERE NEVER DRAWN BY THE FATHER TO COME TO CHRIST IN FAITH. ALL who are given none fail to come and all who are drawn/taught as defined by having "heard" AND "Learned" none fail to come. They do not come to Christ but remain in unbelief as does those among his own disciples in verse 64 due to the very same reason - they were never drawn and thus faith was never "given" or the abiity to come to Christ was never given.

All fish that were caught were drawn in on a fishing line, but not all fish drawn in on a fishing line were caught. Some fish fought and resisted and jumped off the line.

Well, I see you changed your analogy so it is consistent! Good for you but you are still wrong! Jesus said that he would make US to be FISHERS OF MEN not the Father. The Father NEVER LOSES ONE that He has given to Christ BECAUSE it is the FATHER who draws men to Christ NOT US!

Second, the drawing work of the Father is something men cannot do just as the giving work of the Father is something men cannot do.

Third, the drawing work of the Father is an INTERNAL work that deals with the mind and heart which no man can do as no man can change himself any more than an Lepord can change his spots or a black man his skin - impossible and that is the meaning of "no man can come to me."

Fourth, it is a work of TEACHING on the inside of a man done solely by the Father and not by men. This teaching is not merely EXPOSURE to the truth of the gospel but actually a CREATIVE work performed within man analogous with Genesis 1:2-3 WHICH IS EFFECTUAL (2 Cor. 4:6). When God said "let there be light" he did not say "Is the world willing to have light??" But rather COMMANDED light into existence and Paul says that is exactly how "light of knowledge" which is essential to be the "substance" and "hope" of faith (Heb. 11:1) was obtained:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Arminians basically do not understand the nature of regeneration, or eternal life or spiritual death and that is why they cannot understand that faith is the work of God by divine fiat (Jn. 6:29) or the "word of command" (Rom. 10:17 "rhema") which is NEVER WITHOUT POWER - "our gospel came not you you in word only BUT in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance." - 1 Thes. 1:5.