Glenn Beck, Social Justice and the church

[RAdam]

So in other words, it is your opinion, and not scripture, what constitutes a false Christ and a false gospel. No wonder you can't provide me a scripture to back up your claims.

If we are going to refer to the scriptures as authority on who is going to heaven and hell, then we need to refer to the scriptures as authority on what constitutes a false Christ and gospel. Then, any idea not in line with the scriptures is technically false. You've got some Christians who believe Christ died for men universally, while others believe He died for the elect only. They can't both be right, so one is false. You've got some Christians that say Christ loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved but you can resist Him while others say Christ loves the elect and effectually saves them. They can't both be right. You've got some that say the gospel is necessary for regeneration while others say the gospel sheds light on regeneration rather than being instrumental in it. They can't both be right. Some are in line with scriptures, others are not, and those who aren't are following what is according the scriptures a false Christ and a perverted gospel. Are they all doomed to hell too, or only those people you think are way out of line on their beliefs? Which standard are you going to use, the bible or your own opinion. I've yet to see one verse that says all the Mormons and the Catholics are hellbound, yet I've seen people claim they are with scriptural authority.

 

[RAdam]

So if a Mormon was a Christian first he is ok, but if not he is hell bound?

 

[Martin]

Actually, it is. I quoted your own words from your own post. And I have already demonstrated, using your own words, that it is true.

==You may ignore the whole discussion on this matter if you wish, but I made it very clear in the discussion that I was not aware that Mohler had signed the document. You may continue to ignore that fact if you wish, but everyone who has read the thread knows the truth that you are willfully ignoring.

 

[Steven2006]

From "Christianity, Cults & Religions" -Rose Publishing about Mormonism beliefs

"God the Father was once a man, but "progressed" to godhood. He has a physical body, as does his wife (Heavenly Mother). No trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods. Worthy men may one day become gods themselves."

"Jesus is a separate god from the father (Elohim). He was created as a spirit child by the Father and Mother in Heaven, and is the "elder brother" of all men and spirit beings. His body was created through se*ual union between Elohim and Mary. Jesus was married. His death on the cross does not provide full atonement for all sin, but does provide everyone with resurrection."

"The "holy spirit" is different from the "Holy Ghost." The "holy spirit" is not God, but is an influence or electricity-like emanation from God (or "light of Christ".)"

Salvation:
"Resurrected by grace, but saved (exalted to godhood) by works, including faithfulness to church leaders, Mormon baptism, tithing, ordination, marriage, and secret temple rituals. No eternal life without Mormon membership.?

"Eventually nearly everyone goes to one of three separate heavenly "kingdoms", with some achieving godhood. Apostates and murders go to "outer darkness"


.

 

[Revmitchell]

Have your views on Glenn Beck changed after his views about the church and social justice?

Beck was right

 

[sag38]

Yeah Adam, there are no scriptures that "directly" condemn the Jesus of the Mormons. I guess it doesn't matter that this Jesus didn't come into existence until Joseph Smith concocted him in his perverted mind in the 1800's. I'll continue to preach the Orthodox gospel and you can defend the salvation of those who follow a false god. Have fun!!!

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree that scripture affords no assurance or comfort to those in false religion. Dead on.

However, I have yet to see one text from the bible that shows me that a Mormon is absolutely lost and hell bound. I've also yet to see someone tell me what consistutes a "false" Jesus.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

==You may ignore the whole discussion on this matter if you wish, but I made it very clear in the discussion that I was not aware that Mohler had signed the document.

That's irrelevant. The fact is, you did hold Mohler up as an example.

And whether you knew that he signed the Manhattan Declaration or not doesn't negate the fact that you did hold him up as an example of someone we should all support, which makes your claim that you did not, false.

 

[Martin]

That's irrelevant. The fact is, you did hold Mohler up as an example.

And whether you knew that he signed the Manhattan Declaration or not doesn't negate the fact that you did hold him up as an example of someone we should all support, which makes your claim that you did not, false.

==It is not irrelevant. You tried to assert that I was holding to a double standard on you and Mohler.

You said:
"And yet, when Al Mohler does it, you hold him up as a hero." (SOURCE)

I pointed out that I was not aware of Mohler's compromise:

I said:
"I was not aware that Dr. Mohler signed the Manhatten Declaration. If he did, as you said, it was a terrible compromise...If, as you say, Dr. Mohler signed the Manhatten Declaration I would put the same question to him." (SOURCE)

I have repeated this type of comment several times throughout this thread. Yet, despite that fact, you continue to try to say that I hold Mohler up as a hero despite his compromise by signing the M.D. I have made it clear that I do not hold Mohler up as any sort of hero. I have made it clear that my position on his compromise is the same as my position on your compromise. Both of you are watering down the Gospel for political purposes.

You say that, "whether you knew that he signed the Manhattan Declaration or not doesn't negate the fact that you did hold him up as an example of someone we should all support". Actually, it does negate it since when I found out he did sign the M.D. I made the same type of comments about his compromise as I have made about yours. If I had known Mohler had signed M.D. I would never have used him as an example. And I believe you know that. Yet your behavior in this thread, ignoring my comments about Mohler and questioning my (and another poster's) reading abilities, shows that you really don't care about having an honest discussion. You appear to be more interested in throwing around ad hominem attacks than having a meaningful discussion. I suppose that is your business but it does teach me not to even try to interact with your posts/replies.

Btw, I can prove each assertion I made by reviewing this thread.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I pointed out that I was not aware of Mohler's compromise:

And, again, whether or not you were aware of it is irrelevant. You did hold Mohler up as an example. I even quoted your words from the post where you did so.

The fact that you did so, as demonstrated by me, makes your claim that you did not do so false.

Just as a true political observation does not magically become false just because a Mormon says it, so your claim that you were not aware of Mohler's compromise does not make your statement magically disappear.

I have repeated this type of comment several times throughout this thread. Yet, despite that fact, you continue to try to say that I hold Mohler up as a hero despite his compromise by signing the M.D. I have made it clear that I do not hold Mohler up as any sort of hero.

Actually, you're the one who claims I accused you of holding him up as a hero. All I did was quote one of your posts where you stated that we should support Mohler.

You say that, "whether you knew that he signed the Manhattan Declaration or not doesn't negate the fact that you did hold him up as an example of someone we should all support". Actually, it does negate it since when I found out he did sign the M.D.

No it doesn't because the post is still there for everyone to see. You still said it.

If you didn't say it, then why all the hystrionics about how you didn't know about the Manhattan Declaration before you said it?

If I had known Mohler had signed M.D. I would never have used him as an example.

So then, you admit that you did use him as an example of someone we should support.

Period.

And I believe you know that. Yet your behavior in this thread, ignoring my comments

I didn't ignore your comments. I never said that you didn't explain your ignorance of the Manhattan Declaration and I never said that your explanation wasn't a valid one. You're the one who keeps falsely accusing me of that, when all I did was to point out that you said that he is an example of someone we should support, something you now admit that you said.

about Mohler and questioning my (and another poster's) reading abilities, shows that you really don't care about having an honest discussion.

...says the guy who repeatedly makes false accusations against me and ascribes statements to me that I never made.

You appear to be more interested in throwing around ad hominem attacks than having a meaningful discussion. I suppose that is your business but it does teach me not to even try to interact with your posts/replies.

How can I have a "meaningful discussion" with you when, no matter what I say, you twist it and claim that I said something else?

 

[annsni]

It seems some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Al Mohler is a brother in Christ. Of course we should support him.

 

[Robert Snow]

If you stand by your statement, then prove it.

Proverb 6
6 Go to the ant, you sluggard;
consider its ways and be wise! 7 It has no commander,
no overseer or ruler,
8 yet it stores its provisions in summer
and gathers its food at harvest.
9 How long will you lie there, you sluggard?
When will you get up from your sleep?
10 A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest-
11 and poverty will come on you like a bandit
and scarcity like an armed man.(NIV)

Read the book of James.

 

[Martin]

It seems some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Al Mohler is a brother in Christ. Of course we should support him.

==I consider Mohler a brother in Christ and I believe he has done a wonderful job at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. However his signing a document like the Manahattan Declaration is very disappointing. Considering his high profile comments on politics and social issues I guess I should not have been surprised when it was pointed out to me that he signed the document, but I was. The document is very foggy on the Gospel and, like ECT, it assumes that Christians and Catholics share common ground.

Other notable signers, that I wrongly assumed would know better than to sign this document, include:

1. Daniel Akin (SEBTS)
2. Randy Alcorn (the wonderful book on Heaven)
3. Kay Arthur
4. Mark L. Bailey (DTS)
5. Russell D. Moore (SBTS)
6. Joni Eareckson Tada

I'm glad that some of my favorite theologians/teachers are not on there. The notable absences that I am very proud of include but are not limited to:

1. James White
2. John MacArthur
3. Steve Camp
4. RC Sproul
5. Charles Stanley (I could not find his name associated with the document pro or con).

 

[Martin]

Just as a true political observation does not magically become false just because a Mormon says it, so your claim that you were not aware of Mohler's compromise does not make your statement magically disappear.

==I've never asserted that "a true political observation" becomes "false just because a Mormon says it". My assertion throughout this thread has been, and continues to be, that a Mormon's political positions are secondary to their rejection of Scripture and the Lord Jesus Christ. We should not provide political support to anyone who is a theological heretic. Why? Because we have nothing in common with them. They are not on our team. We are not on the same side. We may have some similar values (etc) but that does not mean we are on the same side. We believe what the Word of God teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ, they do not. They teach and believe that Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers. They deny salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. They believe that the Word of God is subordinate to the Book of Mormon (which is full of myths and heresies). Mormons believe that there are different gods who formed and organized the universe. They believe that the gods were once like men and grew into gods. Therefore they believe that certain Mormon men can also one day become gods.

Mormonism is not just some faulty version of Christianity. It is not Christianity! It is utter heresy. It is just as false as Islam and Jehovah Witnesses. That Glenn Beck belongs to such an organization makes him unworthy of Christian support. All Christians should cease to support his work unless/until he repents of his heresy. By supporting him, or endorsing him, we send the dangerous signal that it is ok to compromise the Gospel (and other important Biblical truths) for temporary political gain.

My comments about Mohler were prior to my learning that he had signed the M.D. Mohler is a good man but, like you and other Christians, he is sorely mistaken if he things holding hands with Catholics is Biblical. It is not. They can do their thing and we can do our thing. There should be no co-beligerency between Christians and Muslims, Atheists, Mormoms, Catholics, or any other such group.

So then, you admit that you did use him as an example of someone we should support.

==Prior to learning that he, like you, had compromised the Gospel for political gain. Both of you are in error.

Looking back the example I should have used was John MacArthur. He has written two very good books on this issue. The first was "Why Government Can't Save You" and the second was "Can God Bless America?". He has also explained, very clearly, why he refused to sign M.D.

 

[Winman]

I don't know about others here, but I have never had a poor man give me a job, it was always a rich man. I pray we have lots more rich folks come along who invest their money, start businesses, and create jobs, we need it now badly.

As far as Beck, I watch him occasionally. I heard he was a Mormon sometime back and I try to keep that in mind and realize it colors his point of view. I would not go to church with Glenn Beck because I believe Mormonism heresy, but I would go to a Tea Party with him. And I have stood with Catholics protesting abortion before.

We have to be careful not to think of Mormons, Catholics, JWs or any other group as enemies. They are lost, they are deceived. They need to hear the truth of the gospel and be saved. We should never compromise with them in religious matters, but where we agree on politics we should stand together.

That said, I was a little concerned about Mitt Romney, I voted for Huckabee in our state primary. But if I had to choose between Romney and Obama, I would choose Romney. Romney supposedly turned pro-life in 2004 which some believe insincere (and maybe it is), but he would very likely hold to that position to please the Republican party. It is like Paul said, he didn't care if some folks preached Christ for wrong motives, at least they were preaching the gospel.

Phil 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

[sag38]

I hear you Winman. However, it one thing to preach the gospel under false pretenses. It is quite another to preach a false gospel. The first may very well lead a lost person into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The other, as sincere as it may appear, always leads to hell.

 

[Winman]

I hear you Winman. However, it one thing to preach the gospel under false pretenses. It is quite another to preach a false gospel. The first may very well lead a lost person into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The other, as sincere as it may appear, always leads to hell.

I agree. I have witnessed to Mormons before. If I had a chance to get to know Glenn Beck I would tell him why I believe his religion is wrong. I would not go to his church. But I would go to a political rally with him, we are in much agreement here.

I actually worked on a political campaign once back in the 80's. I worked for the Republican candidate for mayor of Jacksonville, Florida (he lost). What an eye-opener that was, not the best place for Christians. I can only imagine how ungodly Democrats are. I have not participated in politics since (other than voting).

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I've never asserted that "a true political observation" becomes "false just because a Mormon says it".

Yes, you've said several times that whatever Beck says cannot be true because he's a Mormon.

We should not provide political support to anyone who is a theological heretic. Why? Because we have nothing in common with them.

Actually, when it comes to our concerns for our nation, we have plenty in common.

We believe what the Word of God teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ, they do not.

And if we were talking about what the Word of God teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ, you would have a point, but we're not. We're talking about political observations.

My comments about Mohler were prior to my learning that he had signed the M.D.

And once again, you admit that you did make those comments.

Mohler is a good man but, like you and other Christians, he is sorely mistaken if he things holding hands with Catholics is Biblical.

Me and other Christians? I take it you've never read my posts about Catholicism.

Prior to learning that he, like you, had compromised the Gospel for political gain. Both of you are in error.

I find that a very interesting accusation. About every five to six weeks, I have to go and sit before a panel of men from various denominations, and with more than 200 years of ministry and seminary between them. They are good and Godly men who have an unwavering committment to the Gospel, and to the faithful preaching and teaching of the word of God.

As I sit before this panel (and I, in turn, sit on the panel during the other weeks) everything I've preached or taught is gone over with a fine toothed comb. In roughly fifteen years, no one has ever had a problem with my presentation or view of the Gospel. Would you care to tell me exactly how I've compromised the Gospel?

 

[Martin]

Yes, you've said several times that whatever Beck says cannot be true because he's a Mormon.

==Actually I have never said that because I don't believe that. If you can show me where I have said that Beck's politics are wrong because his theology is wrong please do so. But you cannot. Because my point in this thread is what I believe, his politics are secondary to his heretical theology. That I might agree with certain points of his political/social views is irrelevant due to his heretical theological beliefs.

Actually, when it comes to our concerns for our nation, we have plenty in common.

==I disagree. This world, this nation, is not our home. We are not of this world. We have nothing in common with any lost person (other than we are all human). Our concern for this nation should be secondary to our concern from the Truth and people's eternal souls. I refuse to compromise the truth for any alliance with a heretic (Mormons, Catholics, etc). I'm very well aware of the fact that my position is unusual in the modern evangelical church.

And if we were talking about what the Word of God teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ, you would have a point, but we're not. We're talking about political observations.

==His political observations, be they right or wrong, are very much secondary. His affiliation with a cult, a heretical false church, means that we should not support him for any reason. We should love him, pray for him, and explain the truth Biblical Gospel to him. But to hold hands with him for political purposes, we should not do that.

Me and other Christians? I take it you've never read my posts about Catholicism.

==Catholicism or Mormonism it really does not matter to me. Both of those groups deny the Biblical Gospel. Christians who endorse, support, or hold hands with anyone from any of these groups for political/social reasons are, in my view, compromising the truth. Our approach towards those people should always be evangelism and apologetics, and never political alliances. Again. They can do their thing and we can do our thing. But we can't be co-belligerents because we are not on the same team. This is why I opposed ECT and MD.

Would you care to tell me exactly how I've compromised the Gospel?

==What I said about Mohler I will say about you. You may be a very godly man, a great preacher, and a wonderful servant of our Lord. I can't doubt nor will I doubt any of that. But on this point you, just like Mohler, Dobson, Falwell, and Colson, have compromised. We cannot, for any reason, form alliances with Mormons or Catholics because we are just too far apart. I can form alliances with Bible believing non-Calvinists, Calvinists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, etc, because we are on the same team. We may have some differences, some important differences, but these are not disqualifying differences. When it comes to Mormons (etc) the differences are so great that they are disqualifying. I can't have any form of fellowship with such people (unless it is in evangelizing them or defending the Biblical faith against them). By openly supporting people like Glen Beck, Christians are simply sending the wrong message to him and others who need to repent and turn to the Biblical Jesus.

 

[Winman]

==His political observations, be they right or wrong, are very much secondary. His affiliation with a cult, a heretical false church, means that we should not support him for any reason. We should love him, pray for him, and explain the truth Biblical Gospel to him. But to hold hands with him for political purposes, we should not do that.

Well, how far do you carry this? How about your job? I work with Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, a Muslim, a Hindu, and a Buddist, and that's just the few I know their religion. Should I quit my job because we work together?