Glenn Beck, Social Justice and the church

[Martin]

Well, how far do you carry this? How about your job? I work with Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, a Muslim, a Hindu, and a Buddist, and that's just the few I know their religion. Should I quit my job because we work together?

I think that is a good question. I would answer your last question as, "no". Paul made it clear that if we hoped to avoid all sinners (etc) we would have to leave the world. That, of course, is not possible. What he warned us about was fellowshipping with professing believers who are in sin (1Cor 5:10-11).

In this case I am talking about social, political, or religious cooperation with open cultists and heretics. We can't avoid being around such people (working with them, living near them, etc) but we can avoid openly endorsing or teaming up with such people on social, political, or religious issues. However that does not mean we should totally shun or ignore them. We need to reach out to them with the love of Christ. We need to interact with their false theology (apologetics). The last thing we need to do is stand with them on public issues. There, they can do their thing and we can do ours.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Actually I have never said that because I don't believe that. If you can show me where I have said that Beck's politics are wrong because his theology is wrong please do so. But you cannot.

Actually, I already have. Several times, in fact.

I disagree. This world, this nation, is not our home. We are not of this world.

So then, are you an ascetic?

We have nothing in common with any lost person

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. - Luke 18:10-14

You may be a very godly man, a great preacher, and a wonderful servant of our Lord. I can't doubt nor will I doubt any of that.

And yet, you just falsely accused me of compromising the Gospel.

We cannot, for any reason, form alliances with Mormons

How does agreeing with someone "form an alliance".

If Beck says something that is correct, does that mean that I then have to search for a non-Mormon who will say the same thing to validate it?

If a Mormon says that 2+2=4, then does that mean that I have to go find one of your fellow Pharisees to state that 2+2=4 before you'll believe it?

By openly supporting people like Glen Beck, Christians are simply sending the wrong message to him and others who need to repent and turn to the Biblical Jesus.

Fortunately, most people aren't as stupid as you seem to believe.

 

[Winman]

I think that is a good question. I would answer your last question as, "no". Paul made it clear that if we hoped to avoid all sinners (etc) we would have to leave the world. That, of course, is not possible. What he warned us about was fellowshipping with professing believers who are in sin (1Cor 5:10-11).

In this case I am talking about social, political, or religious cooperation with open cultists and heretics. We can't avoid being around such people (working with them, living near them, etc) but we can avoid openly endorsing or teaming up with such people on social, political, or religious issues. However that does not mean we should totally shun or ignore them. We need to reach out to them with the love of Christ. We need to interact with their false theology (apologetics). The last thing we need to do is stand with them on public issues. There, they can do their thing and we can do ours.

The problem with this is, if we do nothing the other side will completely take over. I absolutely disagree with Catholicism, but I have stood with Catholics protesting abortion. If we do not fight against national sins like this, the other side will take advantage of this and institute all sorts of evil and wicked legislation.

It is like war, I try to live at peace with all men, but if another country or terrorists invaded our country, I am going to get a gun and fight them. And if the guy fighting next to me is a Mormon and runs out of ammo, I am going to share mine with him.

 

[Martin]

So then, are you an ascetic?

==This world, this nation, is not our home. We are not of this world (Jn 15:18-19, Phil 3:20). I believe in keeping important things first and secondary things second. Things like politics are very much secondary.

Luke 18:10-14

==Not sure how that is a reply to, "we have nothing in common with any lost person". They are enemies of God, children of wrath, and of this world, we are no longer in that condition. We have nothing in common with them (other than our humanity). Not because of anything we have done, but because of what He has done. We can take no pride in our salvation. However we are not to "be bound together with unbelievers" (2Cor 6:14-18). We should avoid endorsing men who not just reject the Lord Jesus Christ but pervert His Gospel.

And yet, you just falsely accused me of compromising the Gospel.

==Not falsely. By endorsing a heretic's political views you have placed politics ahead of the Gospel. You have put second things first and first things second.

How does agreeing with someone "form an alliance".

==Our approach towards heretics should always be evangelism and apologetics, and never political/social alliances. They can do their thing and we can do our thing. But we can't be co-belligerents because we are not on the same team. This is why I opposed ECT and why I oppose MD. I can form alliances (or stand with) with Bible believing non-Calvinists, Calvinists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, etc, because we are on the same team. We may have some differences, some important differences, but these are not disqualifying differences. When it comes to Mormons (etc) the differences are so great that they are disqualifying. I can't have any form of fellowship with such people (unless it is in evangelizing them or defending the Biblical faith against them). By openly supporting people like Glen Beck, Christians are simply sending the wrong message to him and others who need to repent and turn to the Biblical Jesus. Beck needs to hear the message of repentance, not political agreement.

If Beck says something that is correct, does that mean that I then have to search for a non-Mormon who will say the same thing to validate it?

==I don't watch or listen to people like Glenn Beck so I don't have to worry about validating anything they have to say. I would think that your positions can probably find better support than Glenn Beck. I know mine do. I don't trust most of those tv personalities as far as I could throw them.

If a Mormon says that 2+2=4, then does that mean that I have to go find one of your fellow Pharisees to state that 2+2=4 before you'll believe it?

==Just because a Mormon says it does not mean it is wrong. I've made that point over, and over, and over, and over, and over again throughout this thread. Why you can't grasp that I'll probably never understand. My point is that we should not endorse or support the political, social, or religious positions of Mormons or other heretics.

Fortunately, most people aren't as stupid as you seem to believe.

==It's got nothing to do with how stupid people may or may not be. This has to do with our testimony and being consistant in our witness.

 

[Martin]

The problem with this is, if we do nothing the other side will completely take over.

==I don't agree. We can do our thing, and they can do their thing, we do not have to work together. Mainly when working together means we have to set aside the truth of the Gospel.

I absolutely disagree with Catholicism, but I have stood with Catholics protesting abortion. If we do not fight against national sins like this, the other side will take advantage of this and institute all sorts of evil and wicked legislation.

==What about the herises of Catholic teaching? What about their perversion of the Gospel? Why should we set those sins aside to agree on our opposition other sins? I would no more stand with a Catholic or Mormon than I would an atheist, Buddist, or Muslim. Not because we don't hold similar positions on various social issues, we do. Rather I would not stand with them because we disagree on the Gospel, the most important issue.

It is like war, I try to live at peace with all men, but if another country or terrorists invaded our country, I am going to get a gun and fight them. And if the guy fighting next to me is a Mormon and runs out of ammo, I am going to share mine with him.

==But if the guy fighting next to you is part of the other side (a wolf in sheep's clothing) why would you provide ammo for them? Again, I believe we should standup against the sins of abortion, homosexuality, etc. However I don't think we should stand with Cathlics or Mormons. They can do their thing and we can do our thing. We are and should remain seperate unless/until they repent.

 

[Winman]

==But if the guy fighting next to you is part of the other side (a wolf in sheep's clothing) why would you provide ammo for them? Again, I believe we should standup against the sins of abortion, homosexuality, etc. However I don't think we should stand with Cathlics or Mormons. They can do their thing and we can do our thing. We are and should remain seperate unless/until they repent.

Right now, in Afghanistan and Iran we have soldiers representing every faith in America who are fighting a common enemy, Muslim terrorism. Here in America we have freedom of religion, we do not have a state religion as many countries in the Middle East do. If the Muslims took over here, you would not be allowed to practice your religion as you choose, and the Catholic fighting with you would not be able to either. So, we have a common cause.

We have to respect other's religion. Do I support Mormon belief? No. Do I support the Jehovah's Witnesses belief? No. But if someone can take away their right to practice their religion as they see fit, they can take away your right or my right as well.

So, I will fight along side a Mormon who is defending my right to practice religion as I choose. It is the enemy who will not allow me to practice religion according to my beliefs. And I am defending the Mormon's right to practice his religion (even though I disagree with it) as he sees fit.

Now, who does abortion hurt? Besides the poor innocent child, it hurts our entire nation. One only need read the Old Testament and see God held entire nations accountable for their sins. I love this country and want the best for it. If a Mormon or Catholic came to my door with a strictly political petition to cut off public funds being used for abortion, I am going to sign it.

I have always been a Republican, and have never voted for a single Democrat. But I have never voted for a Republican that supports abortion. I have voted for Independents before. I had a local Republican politician come to my door last election and ask for my vote. I asked her about her stand on abortion and she was pro-choice. Although I probably agreed with many of her political beliefs, there is no way I would vote for her and I told her so.

When you are working in politics, you are not promoting one religion. If so, I would not vote.

I mean, according to your belief, you could only vote for a Baptist for public office. Believe it or not, the only Baptists who have ran for President in my lifetime were Carter and Clinton. In both cases I voted against them. I voted for Nixon, he wasn't Baptist, I voted for Reagan, he wasn't Baptist either.

I did vote for Mike Huckabee in our primary, he is a Baptist.

Have you voted for a non-Baptist for political office? If so, I don't see how this is any different than working with a non-Baptist on a political cause.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

==This world, this nation, is not our home. We are not of this world (Jn 15:18-19, Phil 3:20). I believe in keeping important things first and secondary things second. Things like politics are very much secondary.

Why are you avoiding the question? Are you or are you not an ascetic?

However we are not to "be bound together with unbelievers" (2Cor 6:14-18).

Context, please.

Not falsely.

Yes, falsely. I've asked you to back up your false accusations twice now and you have refused, which indicates to me, at least, that even you know that your false accusations have no merit.

By endorsing a heretic's political views you have placed politics ahead of the Gospel. You have put second things first and first things second.

How so?

Our approach towards heretics should always be evangelism and apologetics, and never political/social alliances.

I see. So then, if your house was on fire and you found out that some of the firefighters were Mormons, would you allow them to put out the fire?

I can't have any form of fellowship with such people

But we're not talking about fellowship. We're talking about examining a political observation and finding that the evidence shows it to be true.

I don't watch or listen to people like Glenn Beck

I see. So then, criticizing someone who you admit you don't know anything about would make you a hypocrite.

I would think that your positions can probably find better support than Glenn Beck.

Actually, all of the other "support" for these things use pretty much the same sources as Beck. I guess that makes them all false, too.

Why you can't grasp that I'll probably never understand. My point is that we should not endorse or support the political, social, or religious positions of Mormons or other heretics.

I see. So then, when a Mormon says that big government is bad, we should disagree with that? When a Mormon says that feeding the hungry is a good thing to do, we should say they're wrong?

It's got nothing to do with how stupid people may or may not be.

Of course it does. Your whole argument is that people are too stupid to understand the difference between a political observation and a theological belief.

But then, maybe you're just engaging in what psychologists call "projection".

 

[Winman]

Last night I was thinking of this thread, and tried to think if there was any example of Christians cooperating with non-Christians politically. And there are several.

First, Joseph. When Joseph interpreted Pharaoh's dream concerning the 7 year draught that was coming, Pharoah put him in charge of the matter. Joseph saved food for 7 years and when the draught came all the nations had to come to Egypt which made this idol serving nation the most powerful nation on earth at the time. It also saved his own family.

Daniel served Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon was a very idolatrous nation.

Dan 1:18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.
19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.

Daniel not only served the Babylonians, he served the Medes-Persians as well which were a very brutal people.

 

[Martin]

Yes, falsely. I've asked you to back up your false accusations twice now and you have refused, which indicates to me, at least, that even you know that your false accusations have no merit.

==I'm glad you think you know what I know. The level of your presumption is amazing. As I said, by endorsing a heretic's political views you have placed politics ahead of the Gospel. You have put second things first and first things second. If you would take time to respond to the entire comment instead of snipping small pieces out your replies might be a bit more meaningful.

I see. So then, if your house was on fire and you found out that some of the firefighters were Mormons, would you allow them to put out the fire?

==I have already addressed this type of irrelevant strawman on at least one other occasion in this thread. As I have said before, and I now say again, I am talking about social, political, or religious cooperation with open cultists and heretics. We can't avoid being around such people (working with them, living near them, etc) but we can avoid openly endorsing or teaming up with such people on social, political, or religious issues.

But we're not talking about fellowship. We're talking about examining a political observation and finding that the evidence shows it to be true.

==Fellowship, endorsing, whatever form it takes, I believe we should not engage in such compromise. The moment you state the truth about the Gospel around people like Beck your false union will vanish. They don't want to hear that they are damned and on their way to hell unless they repent. They are happy to hold your hand unless/until you speak the truth. Such ecuminical political or social or social unions are built on Christians staying silent about the truth of the Gospel. That is never acceptable.

I see. So then, criticizing someone who you admit you don't know anything about would make you a hypocrite.

==This is another example of the type of gross presumption in your replies. I stated, "I don't watch or listen to people like Glenn Beck" and you took that to mean that I "don't know anything about" him. An amazing leap of logic for sure.

I've been keeping up with Glenn Beck and his elk for years (at least since the Dr. Laura craze of the late 90s). That I don't watch his show or listen to his radio show hardly means that I know nothing about him. I knew about Glenn Beck before he was the Fox News celebrity. I know what Beck believes and I know about his personal background. Thanks to a little thing called "research", one does not have to watch/listen to a show to know a great deal about the personality.

Actually, all of the other "support" for these things use pretty much the same sources as Beck. I guess that makes them all false, too.

==And, once again, I have not asserted that Beck's political views are wrong because his theology is heretical. Why do I have to keep plowing the same fields in this thread?

The same sources as Beck? What does that mean? Mormons? T.V. personalities? What do you mean by that?

So then, when a Mormon says that big government is bad, we should disagree with that? When a Mormon says that feeding the hungry is a good thing to do, we should say they're wrong?

==Again, why do I have to keep repeating myself here? In fact I am not going to repeat myself here. I have made it very clear throughout this thread that my issue is with Beck's heretical theological beliefs. That is political views may or may not be correct is secondary. I'm not saying that any more.

Of course it does. Your whole argument is that people are too stupid to understand the difference between a political observation and a theological belief.

==No, my whole argument is that as Christians we should be more concerned about the Gospel than politics. We should be more concerned with the truth than political parties. We should be more concerned with the Word than defending t.v. personalities. My whole argument is based on the premise that Christians should maintain a consistant witness to the truth in every area of our lives. That means avoiding compromise.

 

[Martin]

Last night I was thinking of this thread, and tried to think if there was any example of Christians cooperating with non-Christians politically. And there are several.

==I'm glad that this thread is causing some people to seriously consider this issue. Regardless of one's conclusions, this issue is something that too many Christians just take for granted.

However, just a point of order, I'm not simply talking about "non-Christians". I am talking mainly about non-Christians who are part of heretical cults such as the Mormons and Catholics.

First, Joseph. When Joseph interpreted Pharaoh's dream concerning the 7 year draught that was coming, Pharoah put him in charge of the matter. Joseph saved food for 7 years and when the draught came all the nations had to come to Egypt which made this idol serving nation the most powerful nation on earth at the time. It also saved his own family.

==A very good example. However I would not view Daniel's mission as political co-belligerence. I would be more inclined to think that this was an example of a Christian working for a non-Christian (which most of us are forced to do). However I can see how this example would give weight to the position that it might be acceptable for Christians to allign themselves with non-Christians on some occasions. I would, however, point out that (a) I don't agree with that understanding and (b) that understanding may violate 2Corinthians 6:14-18.

Daniel served Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon was a very idolatrous nation...Daniel not only served the Babylonians, he served the Medes-Persians as well which were a very brutal people.

==I agree that he did that and, as I said above, it is some evidence for the other side. However I would assert that this would be an example of being employed by unbelievers (heretics).

Good points though. Certainly something to think about.

 

[Martin]

We have to respect other's religion. Do I support Mormon belief? No. Do I support the Jehovah's Witnesses belief? No. But if someone can take away their right to practice their religion as they see fit, they can take away your right or my right as well.

==I am a big believer in freedom of religion and the proper separation of church and state. That is I don't believe the government should interfere with religious beliefs/practices. Mormons and Catholics (etc) have a constitutional right to believe and practice their religions. That is not my issue. My issue is about Christians joining those groups in political/social movements. I believe we should remain separate in such movements. They can do their thing and we can do our thing. There is no reason for cooperation.

Now, who does abortion hurt? Besides the poor innocent child, it hurts our entire nation. One only need read the Old Testament and see God held entire nations accountable for their sins. I love this country and want the best for it. If a Mormon or Catholic came to my door with a strictly political petition to cut off public funds being used for abortion, I am going to sign it.

==Generally I don't sign petitions. But that is another issue entirely. Abortion is a sin and, like slavery, it is an incredible stain on our nation. No doubt our nation is under judgment for this holocaust of the unborn. However perverting or rejecting the Gospel is also a sin and God will judge individuals and our nation for that as well. In fact, one could argue that it is a far more serious sin than any other. Therefore I could not sign such a petition. Why not? Because the people asking me to sign it are guilty of a very terrible sin indeed. The sin of heresy.

I have always been a Republican, and have never voted for a single Democrat. But I have never voted for a Republican that supports abortion.

==I was a Democrat, but I am a registered Republican. However the shifts in my thinking on these issues have pushed me into the independent camp. At this time I am not pleased with the direction of this country, of the Republicans, or the Democrats. Unless the Republicans can do better, much better, I will vote third party or not vote at all. I refuse to be fooled again.

When you are working in politics, you are not promoting one religion. If so, I would not vote.

==I can't seperate my personal political views/beliefs from my faith in Christ. When a candidate, or personality, holds to heretical theological beliefs they will not get my support. I believe that the Truth is far more important than any political cause.

I mean, according to your belief, you could only vote for a Baptist for public office.

==I don't believe that. I can support any Christian regardless of the denomination. It is the rank unbelievers and heretics that I refuse to support. I do not view Mormons and Catholics (etc) as Christians. I believe they are heretical cults and not Christian denominations.

Believe it or not, the only Baptists who have ran for President in my lifetime were Carter and Clinton. In both cases I voted against them. I voted for Nixon, he wasn't Baptist, I voted for Reagan, he wasn't Baptist either.

==I voted for George W Bush, a Methodist.

Have you voted for a non-Baptist for political office? If so, I don't see how this is any different than working with a non-Baptist on a political cause.

==It is different because being a non-Baptist does not make one a heretic.

 

[Winman]

Good points though. Certainly something to think about.

I believe there are more believers who did this, I think even David served another king for awhile if I remember correctly.

That said, I agree with you that Joseph and Daniel were no ordinary believers. They were both very faithful and uncompromising, especially Daniel.