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Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement.

B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Dave G said:
If their sins have been dealt with, they have nothing to answer to God for.
Those sins have been dealt with.

Barry,
This presents a contradiction.:(

If sins are dealt with, then they are dealt with.
They will never be brought up at the Judgment, for those whose sins have been paid for. Do you have a verse that says this after the cross ?
According to God's word, He casts them from Him as far as east is from west, and those sins and iniquities are remembered no more.
If He actually did that for everyone at the cross, then all the sins of all men are forgiven, and they enjoy a right standing with God based on the death of His Son.
right standing ? A right standing would only be a person ' in Christ ' . This did not happen at the cross when Jesus was reconciling the Whole world .

It's not potential, it's actual.
Sins were actually paid for in the sight of God, when the Lord Jesus was put on that tree. Yes Jesus purchased the whole cosmos . But just like if you break a whole stack of wine glasses in a store it can be paid for , but it doesn't put all the pieces back together. Sin is no longer the issue , Glorification is the issue .

So...
According to Scripture, whose sins are forgiven, and whose are not?
Everything is paid for .

Belief is a result of election.
No scripture says this .

A person can only come to Christ if they are drawn ( John 6:44 ), and no one can come to Christ unless it has been given to them of the Father to do so ( John 6:64-65 ). This is before the cross to those who were already learning and following the Father . Your not a sheep in 2020
Christ will only give eternal life to the ones given to Him by the Father ( John 17:2 ), and only the ones that are ordained to eternal life, will believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

So, everything was accomplished for God's children ( the "whosoever believeth" ) at the cross and when we were without strength and without the knowledge of it.
It all comes before belief, that it might be of grace, and not of works.:)
Click to expand...
Ok
You were still lost and heading for hell when Jesus said ' it is finish ' . Your essentially denying the resurrection as that is what saves not only his death . Jesus Death made your salvation possible it did not secure it .
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Dave G said:
This is my understanding of God's word speaking, Barry.

Let's leave John Calvin, John Wesley and John R. Rice out of it, OK?
I didn't go to a theology book to arrive at conclusions from Scripture...

I read it, and I understand it for myself with no man's help.
All I did was to obey the Lord in 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15.;)
Amen.
Let's look at it again, Barry.

When was the atonement received?
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

When were believers justified by His blood?
At the same time they were reconciled to God...
By the death of His Son:

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:12 ).

Barry,
Track the pronouns...
If this is referring to all men indiscriminately, then all men were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Their relationship was re-instituted, and they enjoy the favor of God.

You now have a contradiction:

If all men were reconciled by the death of His Son, then why are people going to be judged?
For their unbelief?
Unbelief is a sin, according to John 16:9.

If this is speaking about all men ( and not God's elect, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4-11 ), then their sins were nailed to the cross and their sin-debt to God was paid for them.
That includes the sin of unbelief.

According to this:

" And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
The believer's sins ( all trespasses ) were nailed to His cross.
So, what did the atonement actually accomplish for those who would never believe?
Click to expand...
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
when did he nail it to the cross ? 2000 years ago is the answer , not when you believed . Sin is not the barrier anymore , Jesus has dealt with that issue . But we are not saved by Jesus blotting out those things that were against us , anymore than paying for a broken window repairs the glass. Everyone is still in the ' and falls short of the Glory of God ' category . No one can be in heaven without being glorified. To access this salvation is through Faith . simple .
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson said:
(Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 8:17 (KJV)
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with
Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also
glorified together.
Only those born again (children) are glorified. The Atonement does not glorify .
Click to expand...
Limited atonement = God gets all the glory. Universal atonement = you rob him of his glory in salvation and give it to yourself..thinking you saved yourself.
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Dave G said:
This is my understanding of God's word speaking, Barry.

Let's leave John Calvin, John Wesley and John R. Rice out of it, OK?
I didn't go to a theology book to arrive at conclusions from Scripture...

I read it, and I understand it for myself with no man's help.
All I did was to obey the Lord in 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15.;)
Amen.
Let's look at it again, Barry.

When was the atonement received?
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

When were believers justified by His blood?
At the same time they were reconciled to God...
By the death of His Son:

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:12 ).

Barry,
Track the pronouns...
If this is referring to all men indiscriminately, then all men were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Their relationship was re-instituted, and they enjoy the favor of God.

You now have a contradiction:

If all men were reconciled by the death of His Son, then why are people going to be judged?
For their unbelief?
Unbelief is a sin, according to John 16:9.

If this is speaking about all men ( and not God's elect, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4-11 ), then their sins were nailed to the cross and their sin-debt to God was paid for them.
That includes the sin of unbelief.

According to this:

" And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).

The believer's sins ( all trespasses ) were nailed to His cross.
So, what did the atonement actually accomplish for those who would never believe?
Click to expand...
What you need to ask yourself is ,how does salvation work ? And what are the components of salvation . What Jesus did and how does it apply . Were Justified by His blood ,but we were not justified when he Bled . He nailed all sinners sins to the cross but its of no use to the man who does not recieve the atonement. When do we recieve the atonement when Jesus atoned ? no , that's why we have to recieve it .How do we recieve? by believing the Gospel . You and Calvernists are under the illusion that Jesus death saves . Or that salvation is secured on the cross .
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
Limited atonement = God gets all the glory. Universal atonement = you rob him of his glory in salvation and give it to yourself..thinking you saved yourself.
Click to expand...
Could you explain how I believe I saved my self ? Did I die on a cross , was I buried and did I rise again ? Did I regenerate myself ? Did I baptise myself into the body of Christ ? Did I seal myself ? did I predestinate myself to future Adoption ? Do I need to persevere to the end to be saved ? no . Do I need to look to my works to know im saved ? Am I etrernally secure and it has nothing to do with my works. yes
 
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B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
Limited atonement = God gets all the glory. Universal atonement = you rob him of his glory in salvation and give it to yourself..thinking you saved yourself.
Click to expand...
defending Gods Glory should be subject to what God said he has done and purposed . Philosophical topics about Glory , sovereignty, free will ect should come second to the authority of the Scriptures.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson said:
defending Gods Glory should be subject to what God said he has done and purposed . Philosophical topics about Glory , sovereignty, free will ect should come second to the authority of the Scriptures.
Click to expand...
You rob him of his glory in salvation and credit yourself. Bad fix you are in.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson said:
Could you explain how I believe I saved my self ? Did I die on a cross , was I buried and did I rise again ? Did I regenerate myself ? Did I baptise myself into the body of Christ ? Did I seal myself ? did I predestinate myself to future Adoption ? Do I need to persevere to the end to be saved ? no . Do I need to look to my works to know im saved ? Am I etrernally secure and it has nothing to do with my works. yes
Click to expand...
Do you trust in free will? If so you reject Christ as savior.
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Dave G said:
Believers have already received the atonement:

" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:8-11 ).

It was received when they were still the enemies of God in unbelief, Barry.
They didn't do anything to receive it.
Click to expand...
Nope we only recieve after ..thats why the verse says NOW we have recieved the atonement.
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
= they need to receive him to save themselves = works, not grace. Grace = they receive him because he first received them.
Click to expand...
John 1:12

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson said:
John 1:12

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Click to expand...
“But as many as received him (passively, like a pat on the back), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12–13 (NCPB)
 
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