Go ahead and pound me: But I believe the Government should be involved in healthcare.

[targus]

The answer is this: God's sovereignty does not relieve us of personal responsibility to the poor. Just because he has called me to trust him in a special circumstance, does not relieve me, nor this nation, of it's responsibility to the "widows and orphans.'

Does God's sovereignty relieve you of the personal responsibility to your family?

Just because He has called you to trust in a Him in a special circumstance does not relieve you from your responsibility to your wife and children.

That you have this ministry does not mean that your children should not be provided for.

Why is it important to you to be here telling us that we have an obligation to the entire nation that you do not feel towards your own immediate family?

 

[Havensdad]

Does God's sovereignty relieve you of the personal responsibility to your family?

Just because He has called you to trust in a Him in a special circumstance does not relieve you from your responsibility to your wife and children.

Tell this to the thousands of overseas missionaries, who are not within 200 miles of a hospital. Are they "neglecting their family"?

Of course not.

That you have this ministry does not mean that your children should not be provided for.

My Children are provided for.

Why is it important to you to be here telling us that we have an obligation to the entire nation that you do not feel towards your own immediate family?

God's calling on me and my family, does not relieve myself or others of our responsibility to the poor.

 

[OldRegular]

Does God's sovereignty relieve you of the personal responsibility to your family?

Just because He has called you to trust in a Him in a special circumstance does not relieve you from your responsibility to your wife and children.

That you have this ministry does not mean that your children should not be provided for.

Why is it important to you to be here telling us that we have an obligation to the entire nation that you do not feel towards your own immediate family?

The Apostle Paul states:

1Timothy 5:8. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

 

[Havensdad]

The Apostle Paul states:

1Timothy 5:8. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Right. Since I am providing for my children, this verse does not apply.

Are you implying that every person who does not have full medical coverage for their children is "worse than an infidel"? Because that would include most of the people arguing on this thread.

 

[targus]

Tell this to the thousands of overseas missionaries, who are not within 200 miles of a hospital. Are they "neglecting their family"?

Of course not.

You are not overseas are you?

Are you 200 miles away from the nearest hospital?

Those would be circumstances that don't apply in this case then.

My Children are provided for.

How so? What is your plan if one of them were to become seriously ill?

God's calling on me and my family, does not relieve myself or others of our responsibility to the poor.

I am talking about your more immediate responsibility to provide for your children.

What is your plan?

 

[Havensdad]

You are not overseas are you?

Are you 200 miles away from the nearest hospital?

Those would be circumstances that don't apply in this case then.

Did God call them to put themselves in that position? Yes.

Did God call me to my current position? Yes.

Those same circumstances apply.


Luk 9:3 And he said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics.

Was this command given to everyone? Or only to those called? Why would God tell them to do such a thing?

 

[targus]

Did God call them to put themselves in that position? Yes.

Did God call me to my current position? Yes.

Those same circumstances apply.


Luk 9:3 And he said to them, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics.

Was this command given to everyone? Or only to those called? Why would God tell them to do such a thing?

I don't see anything about a 30ft trailer in that verse.

Why do you allow yourself that but not medical insurance?

 

[OldRegular]

Right. Since I am providing for my children, this verse does not apply.

Are you implying that every person who does not have full medical coverage for their children is "worse than an infidel"? Because that would include most of the people arguing on this thread.

I am simply quoting Scripture. Since you apparently are going into the business of interpreting Scripture I will leave that up to you.

I will say that something is wrong when a person pays $10,000 per year in property taxes and cannot provide health care for his family.

 

[Havensdad]

I don't see anything about a 30ft trailer in that verse.

Why do you allow yourself that but not medical insurance?

Why do the overseas missionaries allow themselves homes, but no insurance?

God did not call everyone to do the same thing. Those disciples were called to do what they did. Later apostles, like Paul, did things a little differently. Some of them actually had a house. Some did not: each were called to different circumstances.

As far as the trailer: why don't you ask God that question? I honestly couldn't tell you, other than that it has allowed us to minister in at least one place where we would not have been able to otherwise.

Tell me: why do you feel it necessary to discuss my personal life, instead of the issue at hand? If my special situation had something to say in the matter, it might be different.


Do YOU have full medical insurance? Does everyone else on here arguing, have full medical?

 

[Havensdad]

I am simply quoting Scripture. Since you apparently are going into the business of interpreting Scripture I will leave that up to you.

I will say that something is wrong when a person pays $10,000 per year in property taxes and cannot provide health care for his family.

I no longer have that job, nor any of that property. My current income is around 20k per year.

 

[rbell]

My friend, I and my wife were called by God into the ministry. He has provided for our food, clothing, gas etc.: I can only assume he will provide in those cases as well. We have many family members and friends who support our work, we are part of a church, etc. We have a good support structure, and a loving creator. I have no worries.

Then you are a hypocrite.

You don't provide for your family, but you want a "safety net."


Following your logic...why do you trust God to provide for you (and you don't buy health insurance), yet you want the government to provide for others? Isn't God big enough to provide for others also?

Furthermore...you are aware, are you not, that when this government care goes through...you will be forced to buy insurance?

It took quite a few pages, but I think your whole premise has completely unraveled.

 

[rbell]

Sorry, but it sounds like to me Havensdad advocates freeloading. That is unbiblical and unethical.

Do what I did. Work hard, sacrifice, and get your own insurance.

 

[targus]

Tell me: why do you feel it necessary to discuss my personal life, instead of the issue at hand? If my special situation had something to say in the matter, it might be different.

You came here and invited us to "pound on you" over this issue. Don't wimp out now.

You are telling us that we have an obligation to provide something for everyone that you are unwilling to provide for your own wife and children - namely medical insurance.

You and your family are not immune to illness and accidents. Eventually you will be in situation where you will be in need of medical services. You have made no plans for that so no doubt you will trot yourself off to the nearest place that you can get free care.

You have no particular moral standing in this discussion.

Do YOU have full medical insurance? Does everyone else on here arguing, have full medical?

Yes - of course - absolutely.

Medical, dental, and vision. It would be irresponsible not to have coverage for myself and my family.

Just out of curiosity - do you have insurance on the trailer?

 

[Havensdad]

Then you are a hypocrite.

You don't provide for your family, but you want a "safety net."


Following your logic...why do you trust God to provide for you (and you don't buy health insurance), yet you want the government to provide for others? Isn't God big enough to provide for others also?

Why do we give to the poor? Why do we tithe?

Furthermore...you are aware, are you not, that when this government care goes through...you will be forced to buy insurance?

I did not specify that the exact bill we have now is the appropriate one. I already said, in a previous post, that it should be voluntary, and for those who need it (not for all).

It took quite a few pages, but I think your whole premise has completely unraveled.

So: let me get this straight. You do not think we should take care of the less fortunate?

 

[Havensdad]

Sorry, but it sounds like to me Havensdad advocates freeloading. That is unbiblical and unethical.

Who is freeloading? The poor, who are working, are paying social security taxes they should not be paying, medicare taxes they should not be paying, plus in most states, state income tax and sales tax (not to mention exhorbitant vehicle registration, property tax, etc.). The only "freeloaders" are homeless people who are not working at all.

 

[Havensdad]

You came here and invited us to "pound on you" over this issue. Don't wimp out now.

You are telling us that we have an obligation to provide something for everyone that you are unwilling to provide for your own wife and children - namely medical insurance.

By your logic, we should not provide food for the homeless, because sometimes we choose to fast.

You and your family are not immune to illness and accidents. Eventually you will be in situation where you will be in need of medical services. You have made no plans for that so no doubt you will trot yourself off to the nearest place that you can get free care.

Nope.

Yes - of course - absolutely.

Medical, dental, and vision. It would be irresponsible not to have coverage for myself and my family.

That's idiotic. So everyone who cannot afford medical insurance is irresponsible? You have lost any sense of credibility.

Just out of curiosity - do you have insurance on the trailer?

As required by law.

 

[targus]

Havensdad, I don't know how well you evangelize but hopefully you do not answer a question with a question then as you have been doing here.

In my mind you have not made a convincing arguement.

You are asking us to do for others what you are not willing to do for even your own family.

Since you believe that it is our duty to provide medical insurance for everyone - is it your duty to do the same?

How exactly would you meet that obligation when you do not earn enough to buy your own insurance - let alone have anything left over to put towards someone else's insurance?

 

[OldRegular]

I no longer have that job, nor any of that property. My current income is around 20k per year.

Then you are eligible for Medicaid! But that is no excuse for advocating Marxist ideology!

 

[Havensdad]

You are asking us to do for others what you are not willing to do for even your own family.

Tell me: when Jesus told the disciples to go without money, did this suddenly mean that giving to the poor was no longer necessary? Why does Paul argue so strongly for giving to the poor, when he himself has no money?

Since you believe that it is our duty to provide medical insurance for everyone - is it your duty to do the same?

How exactly would you meet that obligation when you do not earn enough to buy your own insurance - let alone have anything left over to put towards someone else's insurance?

What I am advocating is a shifting of resources already present. The government is involved in all kinds of things that it should not be, like schools, NASA, research on such insane things as pig flatulence,and it's effect on the environment, etc. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars on conservationist programs, to protect trees and birds, while PEOPLE are in need of medical care.

 

[Havensdad]

Then you are eligible for Medicaid! But that is no excuse for advocating Marxist ideology!

Actually, I make more than 380 dollars per month, so I am not. But again, I am not too worried about myself.

I am certainly not advocating a "Marxist" ideology. I want to substantially reduce Government interference from where it is now: I just want to shift the focus as well. My view would actually substantially reduce Government involvement. Think of how much smaller the Government would be if those three things: Law enforcment (Military and Police), infrastructure, and Emergency care, were the only three things they were involved in.