God Alone Must Be Glorified

KenH · Friday at 9:39 AM

DaveXR650 said:
But having said that, you are correct in that in the extreme Calvinist position, which has God causally determining that many if not most men are created and designed for the express purpose of burning in Hell to show God's dislike of sin, and that this was set before they had even been born, then they go too far and slander God's character.

I believe God and what He has said. Proclaiming what God has said is not "slander", it is having faith in God.

Romans 9:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Van · Friday at 9:56 AM

David Lamb said:
Well , I am a Calvinist and I believe that everyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ shall not perish but have everlasting life. To say that Calvinists don't believe that is just wrong. Yes, they do believe that the bible teaches that unsaved sinners are dead in trespasses and sins, that the natural man "does not receive the things of the Spirit of God," so they don't agree that sinners can themselves summon up faith to believe on the Saviour.

You are claiming Calvinism says the natural man can believe without being given faith by Irresistible faith! The "I" of the TULIP.

From Wikipedia:
rresistible grace (also called effectual grace,[1] effectual calling, or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. It is to be distinguished from prevenient grace, particularly associated with Arminianism, which teaches that the offer of salvation through grace does not act irresistibly in a purely cause-effect, deterministic method, but rather in an influence-and-response fashion that can be both freely accepted and freely denied

KenH · Friday at 10:03 AM

Martin Marprelate said:
The people whom the Lord Jesus healed were not shortsighted, hard of hearing, stammering or suffering with a nasty cold - they were blind, deaf, dumb and lepers! And Lazarus was not just a bit poorly; he was dead and stinking in his tomb!
What a disservice we do the the Lord Jesus when we imagine that we ourselves were not really dead in trespasses and sins as the Bible tells us, but actually able to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps to become saved.

Amen!

Van · Friday at 10:04 AM

KenH said:
Romans 8:
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Apparently this poster denies we have been spiritually glorified with salvation. They never acknowledge error! Apparently the promise of our bodily resurrection in glorified bodies is claimed to be nullify the fact we have been spiritually glorified. I kid you not.

DaveXR650 · Friday at 10:05 AM

@KenH. I believe that Romans 9 was not trying to say that God will arbitrarily choose to send some to Hell and then warn us not to reply against God regarding his choice. We have gone over this a million times but the fact is the Jews had to be convinced that any gentiles could be saved. To do this it was shown that God chooses what he will do and not only can he choose a people, but he can choose a family from among a people, and beyond that he can choose between brothers - even twins. Verse 24 sums up my point rather well. Gentiles are now being called too.

This really does get back to the workings of the will. The reason I say that is because I have no problem with any Calvinistic proposition that leaves the will intact - even if it has God as sovereign over it. That is because you are then left with the idea that a person worried that he might not be elect in truth need not worry because if he wants to come to Christ that is the best sign he is elect. But if you present your case as some of you guys tend to do you give the impression that Esau for example, was chosen for Hell no matter how he acted and that Pharoah would not have sovereignly been permitted to obey God. Don't do that!

I understand some of the intricacies of theology. I understand the different ways of explaining things, like how God's sovereignty works and how can we understand his decrees and reconcile them with our existence which is in a reality of time. And that is why I have no problem with Calvinism, no matter how strong or "high". But what I do insist on is a true and free offer, in real time, to everyone who hears the gospel. And a lot of serious Calvinists agree. If you read Romans 9 along with 10 and 11 in one reading, you will see that it is repeatedly mentioned that Jews and gentiles can come by faith.

Van · Friday at 10:09 AM

Martin Marprelate said:
SNIP

The people whom the Lord Jesus healed were not shortsighted, hard of hearing, stammering or suffering with a nasty cold - they were blind, deaf, dumb and lepers! And Lazarus was not just a bit poorly; he was dead and stinking in his tomb!
What a disservice we do the the Lord Jesus when we imagine that we ourselves were not really dead in trespasses and sins as the Bible tells us, but actually able to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps to become saved.

These folks redefine being "spiritually dead" to mean unable to seek God. But no verse says that. On the other hand many seek the narrow door that leads to eternal life. Thus this false claim is used to nullify all the verses and passages, such as the Rich Young Ruler, that teach the lost sometimes seek God but do not find the door through faith like Abraham's.

KenH · Friday at 10:18 AM

Van said:
Those who ignorantly claim only God is glorified nullify verse after verse. What does this verse mean "to be glorified?"

God is inherently glorious. God's elect are not glorious in themselves. They are glorified by and in Christ by God.

Tenchi · Friday at 10:22 AM

KenH said:
Apparently so.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

This is just more flat contradiction, not reasoned argument. It is what children who don't know how to reason well resort to in disagreement with other children.

Here's the verse you've quoted above in its immediate context:

Psalm 110:1-7 (NASB)
1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
2 The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."
3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew.
4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He will judge among the nations, He will fill them with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.
7 He will drink from the brook by the wayside; Therefore He will lift up His head.

What is in view in this Psalm? An apologetic for Calvinist monergism? No. It's speaking of the glory, power and authority of Christ.

What is the "day of your power"? Do you know? And what does it mean for the Lord's people to "volunteer freely"? Does this sound like monergistic, divine compulsion to you? It doesn't to me.

KenH · Friday at 10:24 AM

Van said:
Everyone God saves has been past tense glorified. Those saying only God is glorified are seemingly ignorant.

God is inherently glorious. God's elect are not glorious in themselves. They are glorified by and in Christ by God.

God chose His elect from eternity, but they are born in this world in natural, fallen, sinful bodies; in time, God brings His elect under the hearing of the gospel of Christ, then the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gifts of faith in the finished work of Christ as the Lord their Righteousness, and repentance of dead works; and God will preserve them all the way to live in His presence forever in the new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

Jude 1:
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Van · Friday at 10:27 AM

KenH said:
God is inherently glorious. God's elect are not glorious in themselves. They are glorified by and in Christ by God.

Good Grief, the claim was no one but God is glorified, That was false, ignorant and unstudied. No matter how much effort is made to change the claim to "the elect are not glorious in themselves" the OP is there for all to read. Again, no acknowledgment of error!!

37818 · Friday at 10:28 AM

Romans 8:30, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This passage shows God causes the glorification of whom He Justifies. But what or where is a passage showing any of this is for His glory alone? [This is not to be an objection, but a question.]

Tenchi · Friday at 10:32 AM

KenH said:
All of God's elect are born again(born from above) at some point during their time on this earth. God always saves His elect by His sovereign grace, from the beginning of time until Christ returns and establishes the new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

This is, I'm afraid, mere Calvinist propaganda/dogma rather than the plain declaration of Scripture. But it's certainly convenient for the Calvinist to assert this sort of thing, groundless though the assertion largely is.

In point of fact, there was no "born-again" person prior to the atoning work of Christ at Calvary. Only after he'd done what he did on the cross was anyone truly "born-again." Now, the effects of his saving, atoning work were applied retroactively, I think - he died "once for all" - but until such time as Jesus redeemed humanity from sin and Self, there were none who were spiritually-regenerate in a post-Calvary, Spirit-indwelt sense. If there had been, then Christ need not have died; for if people could be spiritually-regenerated without the atonement of Christ on the cross of Calvary, why, then, was his death necessary?

I realize there is a tangled Calvinist reply to this, but when I consider it through the lens of Ockham's Razor and the plain, uncomplicated statements of God's word, I find that tangle unconvincing.

KenH · Friday at 10:35 AM

Tenchi said:
What is the "day of your power"? Do you know?

The meaning is "strength", "power".

Whose power? The unregenerated sinner's? NO!!!!

It is the power of who is designated as "thy".

Who is the person described using "thy"? The unregenerated sinner? NO!!!!

The person is Christ, by His authority, not the will of man.

Furthermore,

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice the use of "were", which is past tense, meaning that being born again(born anew) precedes what is described in the prior verse, verse 12.

KenH · Friday at 10:39 AM

Van said:
the claim was no one but God is glorified

The OP is about God alone being glorified in the salvation of His elect. Bill Parker clearly stated, "God has designed the salvation of His people for His own glory."

(emphasis mine)

Man can claim no glory in his salvation, as salvation is 100% of God and 0% of man.

KenH · Friday at 10:56 AM

Tenchi said:
In point of fact, there was no "born-again" person prior to the atoning work of Christ at Calvary.

No one can be saved without having been regenerated before they die physically. Noah was saved, David was saved, to name just two of the saints in the Old Testament.

Tenchi said:
If there had been, then Christ need not have died

The last Adam must die; therefore, the first Adam must fall.

Christ was considered to have paid the sin debt of God's elect before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 The book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

"He may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood, and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done; and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ; and in the faith of the saints, which brings distant things near, and considers them as if present...such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them...for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Revelation 13:8 (emphasis mine)

37818 · Friday at 10:57 AM

John 17:5, And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Isaiah 42:8, . . . I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, . . .

God the Father and the Son of God are distinct Persons but are the same God.

Van · Friday at 10:57 AM

LOL, one false claim after another from the Calvinist!

Did I say "Man can claim glory in His salvation" or that salvation is not 100% of God and 0% of man?

These people never acknowledge error!

Here is the title of the thread: