God Alone Must Be Glorified

[Van]

LOL, still no acknowledgement, and note the pathetic switch from all glory to my glory. I kid you not.

Ephesians 5:27 NASB
that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Ever wonder why many Calvinists seem unable to admit error?

Each saved person has been glorified, thus not all glory goes to God!

 

[KenH]

in all her glory,

Is the moon glorious in appearance? Yes.

Does the moon have any glory in and of itself? No.

Without the glorious light from the sun, the moon is dark.

The moon can only reflect the glorious light of the sun.


Likewise, God's elect have no glory in and of themselves.

Without the glory of Christ, the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2), God's elect would have no glory.

God's elect can only reflect the glory of Christ, the Sun of Righteousness, and the Lord their Righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6).

 

[37818]

Isaiah 42:8, . . . I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, . . .

Isaiah 48:11, For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

 

[Van]

Isaiah 42:8, . . . I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, . . .

No one claimed God gave His glory to the saved, the claim is each and every saved person has been, past tense, glorified! If you deny that as do some posting Calvinist, have at it!

 

[Van]

Has each and every saved person been enrolled in the church of the first born? Is the church presented in all her glory? Has each member of the church been, past tense, glorified? Yes.

Pay no attention to all those who deny the very word of God rather than admit error.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Acts 10:1-2
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

And here's Cornelius defying, too, the Calvinist notion that "dead" means "utterly without capacity" or "a corpselike inability to respond." Though spiritually unregenerate, as the chapter later reveals, he was a "devout man" and "feared God," and prayed always to Him. That's a lot of movement toward God by one who was "corpselike" and "stinking in his tomb" spiritually...

Cornelius was indeed dead in trespasses and sins. His good works could not save him because to God, they were like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). If good works could save, the Pharisee in the parable would be justified instead of the tax collector (Luke 18:11-12). But God had mercy upon him and sent Peter to him. Acts 11:13-14. '"And he told us how he had seen angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
Cornelius needed to be saved, and God graciously arranged it for him. Pure grace from start to finish.
Jonah 2:9. 'Salvation is of the LORD' (c.f. Rev. 7:10).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

These folks redefine being "spiritually dead" to mean unable to seek God.

No. It is "you folks" who redefine "spiritually dead" to mean "Spiritually a bit poorly." Dead means dead.

But no verse says that.

Well, you could try John 6:44. But what we are actually saying is that spiritually dead people cannot find God unless He sovereignly opens their hearts to do so (John 3:3, 5; Rom. 8:7-8; 1 Cor. 2:14).

 

[JesusFan]

No. It is "you folks" who redefine "spiritually dead" to mean "Spiritually a bit poorly." Dead means dead.

Well, you could try John 6:44. But what we are actually saying is that spiritually dead people cannot find God unless He sovereignly opens their hearts to do so (John 3:3, 5; Rom. 8:7-8; 1 Cor. 2:14).

Van and some others seem to take bible to t really meaning lost sinners being spiritually dead in their sins can still somehow hear and receive the truth of scriptures and will themselves to get up and become alive again

 

[Van]

No. It is "you folks" who redefine "spiritually dead" to mean "Spiritually a bit poorly." Dead means dead.
[ Van Said]These folks redefine being "spiritually dead" to mean unable to seek God. But no verse says that.
Well, you could try John 6:44. But what we are actually saying is that spiritually dead people cannot find God unless He sovereignly opens their hearts to do so (John 3:3, 5; Rom. 8:7-8; 1 Cor. 2:14).

On and on they post nonsense. Here the many that seek the narrow door to eternal life cannot because they are "dead." This selective nullification of God's word is the hallmark of false teachings.

Seek God is redefined to find God. But that deflection does no good for if you seek Him, you may find Him, Acts 17:27.

Scripture teaches spiritually dead (separated from God due to unholiness) people sometimes seek God as in Luke 13:24.

John 6:44 does not teach that the spiritually dead cannot seek God. It says they cannot come to Him unless attracted by the Father. Thus if a spiritually dead person is drawn by hearing and leaning God's lovingkindness from the gospel, they can come to Him. Seeking God by works or by faith does not cause salvation. We do not save ourselves, salvation is 100% by God alone. Not seeking God by faith seems to prevent salvation. Romans 9:30-33

 

[Dave G]

In point of fact, there was no "born-again" person prior to the atoning work of Christ at Calvary.

Sure there was:

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, David, Miriam, Moses, Aaron, Noah, Solomon, Samson, Abel, the prophets, Esther, Gideon and all the rest of God's people who expressed faith in Him and His promises...
Long before Christ came to die on the cross for them.

" ... Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

One must first be born again, or one cannot "see" the kingdom of God.
Being born again is a pre-requisite to entering God's spiritual kingdom, my friend.

"... Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

" And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." ( Matthew 8:11 ).

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." ( Luke 13:28-29 ).

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of God and have been, since long before any of us were born.

 

[Dave G]

Keeping in mind that one must be born again ( born from above ) to even enter it, I would ask those who believe that no one was born again until after the Lord Jesus came the first time, "when did they become born again"?
Were they somehow left out of it ( some of them ) for over 3 thousand years until the Lord Jesus was crucified?

Where does the Scripture state that it was "retro-actively applied" to the Old Testament saints?
Is this a theory, or can we point to something that God's word, which is infinitely more trustworthy than man's word, has to say?

We as believers should be basing our beliefs on what His word declares, should we not?

 

[Tenchi]

Sure there was:

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, David, Miriam, Moses, Aaron, Noah, Solomon, Samson, Abel, the prophets, Esther, Gideon and all the rest of God's people who expressed faith in Him and His promises...
Long before Christ came to die on the cross for them.

Did these OT people observe the Mosaic laws of sacrifice? If so, why? Why didn't God simply say to them, "In due time, many centuries from now, I'm going to make an atonement for all of your sin through my son. If you'll just believe me, and trust that he will do as I say he will do, then the effect of his sacrifice can be yours right now and you can ignore the animal sacrifices I've commanded." God doesn't do this, nor does He indicate to those you've mentioned that they were all born-again in the post-Calvary sense by Holy Spirit permanently indwelling them. Instead, they were all still in need of the sacrifices stipulated by God in the Mosaic law for the atonement of their sin.

So, no, those you've listed were not born-again children of God, saved in the post-Calvary sense, their sins entirely paid for by Christ's atoning work at Calvary.

" ... Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

One must first be born again, or one cannot "see" the kingdom of God.
Being born again is a pre-requisite to entering God's spiritual kingdom, my friend.

Yes. Under the New Covenant, this is the way things work. But not under the Old Mosaic Covenant. Just read Hebrews 7-10.

"... Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

" And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." ( Matthew 8:11 ).

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." ( Luke 13:28-29 ).

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of God and have been, since long before any of us were born.

Yes, these entered into God's kingdom, but not, at the time of their death, by way of the New Covenant which did not then exist. They had the lesser means, provided through the sacrifices stipulated in the Mosaic Law, that would suffice until Christ's fuller propitiatory work at Calvary.

 

[KenH]

Did these OT people observe the Mosaic laws of sacrifice? If so, why? Why didn't God simply say to them, "In due time, many centuries from now, I'm going to make an atonement for all of your sin through my son. If you'll just believe me, and trust that he will do as I say he will do, then the effect of his sacrifice can be yours right now and you can ignore the animal sacrifices I've commanded." God doesn't do this, nor does He indicate to those you've mentioned that they were all born-again in the post-Calvary sense by Holy Spirit permanently indwelling them. Instead, they were all still in need of the sacrifices stipulated by God in the Mosaic law for the atonement of their sin.

So, no, those you've listed were not born-again children of God, saved in the post-Calvary sense, their sins entirely paid for by Christ's atoning work at Calvary.



Yes. Under the New Covenant, this is the way things work. But not under the Old Mosaic Covenant. Just read Hebrews 7-10.



Yes, these entered into God's kingdom, but not, at the time of their death, by way of the New Covenant which did not then exist. They had the lesser means, provided through the sacrifices stipulated in the Mosaic Law, that would suffice until Christ's fuller propitiatory work at Calvary.

The holding cell idea for Old Testament saints, eh?

 

[kyredneck]

In point of fact, there was no "born-again" person prior to the atoning work of Christ at Calvary.

Wrong.

OT saints got to heaven the same way as NT saints, they were born from above, children of promise.

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

 

[Tenchi]

The holding cell idea for Old Testament saints, eh?

I've never said anything about a "holding cell." In any case, my view makes better sense to me biblically than the Calvinist alternative. I've offered some reason as to why, which you've not addressed.

 

[Tenchi]

Wrong.

OT saints got to heaven the same way as NT saints, they were born from above, children of promise.

Many centuries before Christ's sacrifice at Calvary? See my last response to this idea in this thread.

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

You've left out a very important clarifying bit of the passage:

Galatians 4:21-29 (NASB)
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27 For it is written, "Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; for more numerous are the children of the desolate than of the one who has a husband."
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

Paul doesn't say in this passage that Isaac was born-again like post-Calvary Christians are, but only that Christians are "children of promise" as Isaac was. Isaac was "born of the Spirit" only insofar as he was such a child, the divinely promised progeny of Abraham. Those under the New Covenant are, like Isaac, the result of the fulfillment of God's promise to send a Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The point of Paul's parallel above is, then, that the New Covenant Christian and Isaac share this characteristic of being the result of a promise fulfilled by God. He is not saying they share a second, spiritual birth, Isaac as spiritually-regenerate as any post-Calvary disciple of Jesus.

 

[KenH]

I've never said anything about a "holding cell."

Sorry. Perhaps I did not understand your point. So you agree that the Old Testament saints after they died, or without dying(Enoch and Elijah), went to be with Christ, correct?

 

[kyredneck]

Many centuries before Christ's sacrifice at Calvary?

Absolutely. Christ wasn't implementing something new here (see Psalms 87), He was revealing mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`

born-again

'Born again' gives free willers wiggle room to lay claim to 'choosing' to be born again. The fact is that one has no more say so in their spiritual birth as they do their physical birth.

Per Edersheim, anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by John:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

Anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3

There is conveyed a strong 'celestial motif' within the dialogue, yea, the entire chapter, between Christ and Nicodemus that the rendering 'born anew' or 'born again', in lieu of 'born from above', misses:

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`
27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven
31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all. Jn 3 YLT

'Born from above' melds nicely with John's other writings:

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT
if ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten. 1 Jn 2:29 YLT
9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten. 1 Jn 3:9 YLT
7 Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God 1 Jn 4:7 YLT
1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him
4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world -- our faith
18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him 1 Jn 5 YLT

'Born from above':

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4 (Psalms 87)

 

[Tenchi]

Absolutely. Christ wasn't implementing something new here (see Psalms 87), He was revealing mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`



'Born again' gives free willers wiggle room to lay claim to 'choosing' to be born again. The fact is that one has no more say so in their spiritual birth as they do their physical birth.

Per Edersheim, anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by John:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

Anothen always has the meaning 'above' when used by James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3

There is conveyed a strong 'celestial motif' within the dialogue, yea, the entire chapter, between Christ and Nicodemus that the rendering 'born anew' or 'born again', in lieu of 'born from above', misses:

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`
27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven
31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all. Jn 3 YLT

'Born from above' melds nicely with John's other writings:

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT
if ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten. 1 Jn 2:29 YLT
9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten. 1 Jn 3:9 YLT
7 Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God 1 Jn 4:7 YLT
1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him
4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world -- our faith
18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him 1 Jn 5 YLT

'Born from above':

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4 (Psalms 87)

None of this deals with what I pointed out from the passage you cited from Galatians 4. It seems you're conceding my point that you've mishandled the passage, imposing upon it a meaning concerning Isaac that it didn't actually convey.

I'm not a Calvinist and I'm afraid that nothing you put forward here induces me to alter my soteriological perspective. As far as I can see, what you've posted in the above quotation is just a kind of "throwing the elephant."

 

[kyredneck]

None of this deals with what I pointed out from the passage you cited from Galatians 4.

I'm convinced there's nothing I can do to convince you of the truth of the metaphors/allegories that connect the 'Women' of Gen 3:15; Psalms 87;
Isaiah 54; Galatians 4; Rev 12.

You showed your ignorance when you stated that "there was no "born-again" person prior to the atoning work of Christ at Calvary". It shows you have the same ignorance as Nicodemus, who couldn't grasp the idea of 'born from above'.