"God became man so that we might become God"

Hi Keith,

Brother, you asked me, "Have you ever actually accepted Christ?"

I accept the mercy and grace of Jesus every day of my life both in my morning offering and through daily reception of his Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist wherein I receive Jesus not just into my heart but onto my tongue, into my mouth, down my throat, and into my tummy as well! In this way, I renew my covenantal oath (Lat: sacramentum), that was sealed in Baptism. That covenant is the New Covenant made in the blood of Christ, our covenant sacrifice and meal with the Father.

See Rom 10:9-10, 13. Also in John 3:18

See them? I've read them numerous times, I pray them, and I've studied them in depth. The Bible is the primary text of my graduate degree.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And what if, before your death, you lose your faith in the only one who has the power to save you, Keith? What does the verse say will happen to you?

Also Heb 9:27 says And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Once you are at that judgment, your fate is sealed.

Amen! Am I supposed to disagree with this?

The decision you make in this life determines what will happen after you die. You are either saved now or never.

And, accordingly, you can lose that salvation by falling from grace. Heb 9:27 speaks of being "judged" after "death". We aren't judged now, brother. We're judged at "death".

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Read the whole New Testament brother, and not just little snippets that your Baptist sect has stung together to form the heresy of OSAS. You'll then be more grounded in the Truth, who is also the Life (poverty, chastity, obedience) and the Way (suffering) - John 14:6.

in the joy of the Lord,

Carson

 

Where does the Bible tell you to do this to receive salvation?

The Bible says I can't lose my salvation.
Eph 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

by keeping your own salvation, you are saying that what Jesus did on the cross wasn't enough. you are saying that Jesus wasn't powerful enough to save your soul and that YOU have to do it (that's works).
Romans 10
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

also, you didn't comment on Eph 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5.

by the way, i got married in Steubenville.

 

Hi Keith,

Where does the Bible tell you to do this to receive salvation?

Shouldn't you know? Haven't you read the New Testament? Jesus says to you and I in the 6th Chapter of John's Gospel:

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

Every day, Keith, every day, I renew my baptismal covenant by partaking in the New Passover, the Last Supper (Mt 26:17,26-28). It is there that we partake of the Paschal Lamb who takes away the sin of the world as the Israelites partook of the Pasch in the Haggadah Seder meal on the 14th day of Nisan, which redeemed the firstborn sons from the tenth plague in Egypt.

The Bible says I can't lose my salvation.

So, you're telling me that if, tomorrow, you were to disbelieve in Jesus Christ, commit murder 5 times, have adulterous relations 10 times, and blaspheme God all afternoon, then die at sunset, you would still be saved?

Read Rom. 11:22!
Read Heb. 10:26–29!
Read 2 Pet. 2:20–21!

by keeping your own salvation, you are saying that what Jesus did on the cross wasn't enough. you are saying that Jesus wasn't powerful enough to save your soul and that YOU have to do it

You're confusing objective with subjective redemption. Apparently, you're saying that what Jesus did on the cross wasn't enough to save everyone who goes to hell. You're saying that Jesus isn't powerful enough to save the souls of those who go to hell.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Do you think that I believe I have any righteousness before God on my own account? Do you think that I believe that my own good works amount to anything before the Father with regards to my justification? If you do, brother, you are gravely mistaken.

I will not spend my time defending what I don't believe, what I don't teach, and what my faith does not consist of.

also, you didn't comment on Eph 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5.

Do you really think that Eph 2:8-9 in any way contradicts my Catholic Faith? If you do, you need to first study Catholicism from the mouths and pens of Catholics before you begin constructing straw men.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Amen!

None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works – merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Chapter 8, January 13, 1547).

And if I were you, I'd pay closer attention to Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit".

I can tell you of the one time when all Christians are washed with the washing of regeneration!

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

by the way, i got married in Steubenville.

I study graduate Christian theology at the Franciscan University up on the hill.

your brother, in Christ,

Carson

 

Carson,

I think Christ is in a whole different league than you or I.

Neal

 

Neal,

What is your point? Your comment is too elusive for me to make sense of what you are trying to say.

God bless,

Carson

 

I am sorry if I am taking this the wrong way, Carson. You seem fairly arrogant in this statement as if you getting a graduate degree makes you better than someone else or able to understand more. I would just like to point out that the Bible is the primary text of my graduate degree as well and I am on the other side of the fence. So let's throw out degrees, because they really get you no closer to God.

Neal

 

well Carson, i'm not going to argue about this with you. i believe the Bible is clear that we are to accept the gift of God and after that we are kept by His Grace and not of our own selves. i'm sorry you don't feel this way. salvation is so simple. he that hath the son hath eternal life. how long is eternal? can eternal stop? if you can lose your salvation, then eternal is not eternal anymore. i'm finished arguing with you.

keith

 

I am sorry if I am taking this the wrong way, Carson.

You are taking it the wrong way.

You seem fairly arrogant in this statement as if you getting a graduate degree makes you better than someone else or able to understand more.

My point is that I study the Bible as a graduate student and as a consequence of this study, I am not unaware of these verses. Rather, I have an adequate grasp of them.

I would just like to point out that the Bible is the primary text of my graduate degree as well and I am on the other side of the fence. So let's throw out degrees, because they really get you no closer to God.

I'm not "throwing out my degree" to show that "I'm better than you are". It's presumptuous of you to think that.

 

Brother Keith,

well Carson, i'm not going to argue about this with you.

Well, at least read the references I posted. The Bible is clear about the issue of losing one's salvation. It's bright as day.

"Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom 11:22).

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:26-29).

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them" (2 Pet 2:20-21).

i believe the Bible is clear that we are to accept the gift of God and after that we are kept by His Grace and not of our own selves.

And I would agree with you.

i'm sorry you don't feel this way. salvation is so simple. he that hath the son hath eternal life. how long is eternal? can eternal stop?

Eternal life cannot stop. Eternal life also cannot have a beginning. What is eternal has no beginning nor an end. The only eternal life is the life of the Trinity, and we are given this by the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

Can we lose this eternal life of the Trinity once we've received it? Does the Bible say this? Yes, it does!

"Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor 10:12).

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt" (Hb 6:4-6).

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal 5:4).

"but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27).

i'm finished arguing with you.

I hope you can walk away from this dialogue with an answer to your initial question, "Have you ever actually accepted Christ?"

in Christ,

Carson

 

I said let's throw out degrees in the sense that you and I (and others) need not rely on degrees because they don't get us any closer to God. Just because you or I have a degree, we are no better than another. I was saying let's throw them out, i.e. forget about them.

Neal

 

Neal,

In the context of seeking truth, degrees are very important. Can you seek ordination as a pastor without a seminary degree?

With regards to sanctity, Mother Teresa has both you and I beat by a hike to the moon. With regards to contemplative union with our Triune lover.. with respect to the divine charity indwelling our souls and overflowing in our lives through good works, our academic studies can only help us know what we must love; they in no way, standing alone, give us the sanctity necessary to see God.

"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Hb 12:14).

With all of this, I agree wholly with you. It's important, however, not to muddle issues. Our respective CV's bespeak of our respective knowledge, which, when it comes to matters of truth (i.e. Christian doctrine), have import.

God bless,

Carson

 

Actually, yes.

I do agree that knowledge is important, but going to seminary or college is not the only way to gain knowledge. There are many with degrees who I think are dumb as logs. They don't know people or care about people, and usually they don't know as much as they think. The more schooling I have, the more I realize I don't know! Also, remember Peter and John were "unlearned and ignorant(in the sense of lacking knowledge) men", Acts 4:13.

Neal

 

For Carson:

I rarely post on this or any other board, as I'm not a great debater nor am I a theological genius. I simply trust Jesus Christ alone for my salvation. The issues discussed on this board are very emotional, as they have to do with how we are saved and where we will spend eternity. That's what makes it so hard to stay calm...this is important stuff!

Carson, I was a Catholic for 38 years, and read everything on Catholic apologetics that I could find (Karl Keating, Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, Thomas Howard, etc.), so I know where you're coming from. I was just as defensive about the Catholic Church as you are, but finally realized I could not reconcile the New Testament church of the bible with many of the beliefs of Catholicism (purgatory, indulgences, Assumption of Mary, etc.)

After having read many of your posts over the last few months, I just have one question for you: Who are you trusting for your salvation -- Jesus Christ or the Catholic Church? That is the bottom line.

You don't have to answer -- just make sure you've placed your trust in the right place.

Love and Prayers,

Priscilla Ann

 

Hi Priscilla Ann,

You don't have to answer -- just make sure you've placed your trust in the right place.

With a post like that, you're most definitely going to receive an answer.

I ... finally realized I could not reconcile the New Testament church of the bible with many of the beliefs of Catholicism (purgatory, indulgences, Assumption of Mary, etc.)

That's understandable. You have limited divine revelation and the formulation of Christian doctrine from that revelation to your private judgement of Scripture alone.

When one does that, one will inevitably leave the Catholic Church - because the Church does not limit revelation in such a way - and it has been impossible for her to do so from the beginning.

Who are you trusting for your salvation -- Jesus Christ or the Catholic Church?

I would suggest that you're producing a false dichotomy. It is precisely the Catholic Church that has given me Jesus. She is the sacramentum of salvation. She is His pilgrim Church on Earth, the Kingdom of Heaven. She is His Body and He is her head.

I simply trust Jesus Christ alone for my salvation.

And I as well. The Church would expect nothing less of you or I.

But, I must ask: "Which Jesus Christ?" The Jesus Christ of the Arians? Of the Christadelphians? Of the Gnostics? Of the Jehovah's Witnesses? Of the Latter-Day Saints?

You see, it isn't all that simple. The Church exists to give us the real Jesus really. She has been commissioned to teach his truth infallibly and give his life in the sacraments validly.

Jesus said to his Apostles, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

These are the two works the Church accomplishes in her missio: (1) Administering the Paschal Mystery through the sacramental economy and (2) teaching all that Christ has commanded.

Not just this or that or what you privately judge only what has been confined to the 73 minus 7 books of Scripture. No, not just. But, all.

and read everything on Catholic apologetics

I stopped reading apologetics texts two years ago and prefer Biblical theology at present. That's why I'm a Catholic. Because the Catholic Church alone fits the Biblical pattern. She alone is built upon the 'eben shetiyah, the Prime Minister of the Eternal Kingdom.

However, regarding indulgences, I would suggest The Salvation Controversy by James Akin. He logically and skillfully shows the Biblical foundation for this doctrine.

your brother,

Carson

 

Carson:

Thanks for your reply to my post.

I do have just a couple of other questions. You stated that one of the two works of the church is "teaching all that Christ has commanded." What did Christ command the church to teach regarding indulgences? How did Christ reveal this to the Catholic Church?

Priscilla Ann

 

Hi C.S.,

No Church gave you salvation

It was through the Catholic Church that I received my faith in Jesus Christ. She preached Him to me. She baptized me. She is my Mother. See Rev. 12:17.

Christ's death is the meritorious cause of my salvation.

Jesus gave us the church and of course I dissagree with you that the catholic church is His church.

Of course we disagree.

Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes: "As regards ‘Catholic’ . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church" (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–1).

All judgement is given to the Son and He has not turned that over to His bride and especially not His mother.

No one is replacing the Alpha and the Omega as the Judge of Man and the Lord of History.

Christ is the head of the Catholic Church. He alone is Judge. He alone is God. He alone is Saviour.

Faith in Christ brings us eternal life not faith in the church or any sacrament.

If I had the time, I would sit you down and show you how Paul, and most especially John, are sacramentalists and how baptism is the instrumental cause of our salvation because it is the sacrament of faith.

See http://www.catholic-convert.com/Page_Viewer.asp?inc=writings/justif.html

Paul says, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his" (Rom 6).

If I were to ask you, Pastor Murphy, how we received the merits of Christ's death, what would you say?

Would you say, "Oh, in our baptism, of course." ?

Christians have been commissioned to teach His truth not an entity.

The Church is part of Revelation, which is God's Truth. And, not only is she part of Revelation, but she herself is the vehicle of Revelation. Christ commissioned Apostles in Matthew 28. Not a book. Apostles.

Individual Christians make up the bride, the body of Christ.

I agree.

How thankful I am that God has opened my eyes and my heart to allow me to see that I need not look to any person or entity but to Christ alone.

And Christ, who you look to alone, points both you and I to the Catholic Church to receive his life in sacrament and his teaching in doctrine:

In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. (Isaiah 22)

Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16)

[ February 23, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Carson said Yes, the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church that Jesus Christ founded. Two of these pillars are "one" and "catholic".

This is the "SAME" claim made by the leaders of the Hebrew nation church in Mark 7. Only in their case "it was true". They actually DID have a system of "succession" for the High Priest that was explicitly ordained by God with Moses and Aaron setup at the start and literal successors EVEN TO THE POINT OF BLOOD LINE - setup over the centuries according to the system God started/defined. And they were in "doctrinal error" according to Christ - Mark 7 - PRE-Cross, PRE-Church age, PRE-Christian CHURCH, WITH ALL the Mosaic laws in FULL force - PRIOR to even the first celebration of the Lord's Table.

But in the case of the RCC - most non-RCs believe that this was NOT the church of the 1st century.

There was NO "Roman Catholic Church" mentioned there. There were no Popes. IN FACT even by the report of RC historians themselves - there were no Christian "PRIESTS" in the first century.

The entire system of Roman Catholicism infused with the practices of Paganism centuries AFTER the NT church started - is admitted to (Even by RC historians themselves) "evolving" into what we see today.

On the other hand - RCs do have a point when they argue that over the centuries the system DID evolve to what we see today - that the first century church when measured by "populatiry" went into that area of apostacy that DID introduce pagan practices and beliefs into the Christian church over time. They did not START with the image to Zeus declared to be "Peter" in Rome. That had to "evolve".

In Christ,

Bob

 

there were no Christian "PRIESTS" in the first century

Oh, but there were.

priest n. Middle English preost, from Old English prost, perhaps from Vulgar Latin *prester(from Late Latin presbyter. See presbyter), or from West Germanic *prvost(from Latin praepositus, superintendent. See provost).

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[ February 23, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

A good link about the priesthood and other holy orders:

http://www.catholic.com/library/bishop_priest_and_deacon.asp

You have been laying low lately, Carson. Midterms perhaps?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Blest be God.
Blest be his holy name.
Blest be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blest be the name of Jesus.
Blest be his most sacred heart.
Blest be his most precious blood.
Blest be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar.
Blest be the Holy Spirit, the Consoler.
Blest be the great Mother of God, Mary most holy.
Blest be her holy and immaculate conception.
Blest be her glorious assumption.
Blest be the name of Mary, virgin and mother.
Blest be Saint Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blest be God in his angels and in his saints.

- The Divine Praises -