God Can Do Whatever He Wants To Do With Whoever He Wants To Do It

[Allan]

Every man is in sin. But out text shows that God kept him from a sin. God can do...oh never mind.

You original quote is what God was speaking to:
Genesis 20:6 - "...For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her."


God kept him from breaking God's word to Abraham. (thus not allowing him to touch her or better, marry her)

As I said.. God can do what He desires to whom He desires, but it is not against nor contrary to the persons desires in question.. ie forcing them.

That is why the man was not in sin, he did not know he did wrong and God honored that and kept him from being in sin regarding that issue. Thus the man was not guilty before God for his actions and God kept him that way by keeping him from marrying her.

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[idonthavetimeforthis]

As I said.. God can do what He desires to whom He desires, but it is not against nor contrary to the persons desires in question.. ie forcing them.

Who ever said anything about forcing? God is the great Orchestrator.

By the way, thanks for agreeing with me! :thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

That is an excellent point. Free willers won't like it, but it's just plain fact. I had never noticed that before, thanks for your insight.

Oh, I love it! It shows God's grace and protection.

Apparently the "non free willers" don't like context.

 

[Allan]

Who ever said anything about forcing? God is the great Orchestrator.

By the way, thanks for agreeing with me! :thumbsup:

You did, though not in those specific words as 'He forces them..'. or are you changing your argument?

As I said, I agree with the statement not the false premise my reformed brethren apply to it.

 

[Luke2427]

Who ever said anything about forcing? God is the great Orchestrator.

By the way, thanks for agreeing with me! :thumbsup:

Exactly.

Mind you, God absolutely CAN force ANYONE to do WHATEVER he wants.

I find it slightly amusing that free willers find that so unpalatable.

It is his general way, however, NOT to force men to do things against their will.

Instead he just makes them willing.

For salvation he changes the heart and the regenerated heart is willing to come to Christ.

He also uses sinners according to their will by the orchestrating of events as he did with Pharaoh that causes them to be willing to do His will.


I don't care how you slice it, God is in control of every single event from the orbiting of the planets to the shifting of a single grain of sand- every event both good and evil- all of them are decreed by God.

 

[preacher4truth]

After reading the free willer/closet arminians comments and theological slant concerning God here on BB it simply amazes me how they limit God to a genie who is at their beckon call.

I seriously had no clue to where their logic leads. Many on here have shown me exactly where: to absurdity.

I see the extreme of this in Kenneth Copeland theology, how he says God cannot do a thing in this world unless we invite Him to.

Unbelievable. I see his same error in the words of many on here who limit Gods abilities by their own "logic."

 

[Allan]

Exactly.

Mind you, God absolutely CAN force ANYONE to do WHATEVER he wants.

I find it slightly amusing that free willers find that so unpalatable.

It is his general way, however, NOT to force men to do things against their will.

Instead he just makes them willing.

For salvation he changes the heart and the regenerated heart is willing to come to Christ.

He also uses sinners according to their will by the orchestrating of events as he did with Pharaoh that causes them to be willing to do His will.


I don't care how you slice it, God is in control of every single event from the orbiting of the planets to the shifting of a single grain of sand- every event both good and evil- all of them are decreed by God.

Actually God can not force anyone to do anything as it was God who determined NOT to. He can not go against his nature anymore than He can or would go against His own decree.

(EDITED IN - meaning to be 'forced' to do something against their will)

While I agree with most everything in the above, you seem to forget the fact that in order for God to regenerate a persons heart (according to the reformed view) He has to, against their choice and desire, make them to be willing to want His salvation - ie.. He has to change their nature against their desire, will and/or choice. Thus you do not have God orchestrating events to cause them to be willing, you have God forcing some of them to obey and orchestrating others to continue on their way.

No matter how one desires to slice it, God has to force Himself on some. That is not grace, that is something entirely different.
However, IF this was how God intended His salvation to be, I would have NO issue with it, but as God has revealed scripture to me (through much prayer and study) it does not speak to this and thus I can not agree with it.

 

[Allan]

Luke.. just so you, I'm not raging against Reformed theology.
I was merely boiling it down to a core element that many (though not all) reformed brethren deny.

I can say that JArthur agrees that God must force upon a person a changed heart because without God forcing that heart on them they would not receive salvation any other way.

This is an honest view that is a little harder to contend with than the one that ignores the fact that God must change a persons heart, when they do not and will not desire anything of or related to God.

And yes.. I agree that God is in absolute control of all things at all times, bringing about His good and perfect will, to and for His eternal glory, for His good pleasure.

 

[charles_creech78]

Actually God can not force anyone to do anything as it was God who determined NOT to. He can not go against his nature anymore than He can or would go against His own decree.

While I agree with most everything in the above, you seem to forget the fact that in order for God to regenerate a persons heart (according to the reformed view) He has to, against their choice and desire, make them to be willing to want His salvation - ie.. He has to change their nature against their desire, will and/or choice. Thus you do not have God orchestrating events to cause them to be willing, you have God forcing some of them to obey and orchestrating others to continue on their way.

No matter how one desires to slice it, God has to force Himself on some. That is not grace that is something entirely different.
However, IF this was how God intended His salvation to be, I would have NO issue with it, but as God has revealed scripture to me it does not speak to this and thus I can not agree with it.

Actually God can not force anyone to do anything as it was God who determined NOT to. He can not go against his nature anymore than He can or would go against His own decree.
Show me in scripture that God can't make someone do something?

 

[Allan]

Actually God can not force anyone to do anything as it was God who determined NOT to. He can not go against his nature anymore than He can or would go against His own decree.
Show me in scripture that God can't make someone do something?

You misunderstand my meaning..

What I am referring to is - being forced to do something against their will.
IE.. God is making them and they don't want to.

The problem is that though the statement seems simple, it is not as simple as it sounds The meaning is determined by what you understand the term "make" to mean

Edited in - In other words, in scripture you have people who might not have wanted to do something initially, but God brought things to be that changed their mind and they were willing.. Note that they choose to do it. You do not have in scripture where a person does not want to do something and then God steps in and do it, even though they still do not want to.

One acknowledge only sovereignty and ignore responsibility.
The other sees both operating.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually God can not force anyone to do anything as it was God who determined NOT to. He can not go against his nature anymore than He can or would go against His own decree.

When did God determine not to?

What Bible do you have to support this claim that it would be against his nature to do so?

While I agree with most everything in the above, you seem to forget the fact that in order for God to regenerate a persons heart (according to the reformed view) He has to, against their choice and desire, make them to be willing to want His salvation -

It is NOT against their will if they are made willing. It is therefore not force (though God is perfectly free to force men to do whatever he wants).

God does not compel them to go 'gainst their will he just makes them willing to go. - The Hornet Song

A crude illustration of this would be like love at first sight.

A man may not be willing to "go shopping". But he meets a girl and falls in love and she wants to go shopping- now he WANTS to because his heart has been changed.

She does not FORCE him. Her beauty changed his heart- he is perfectly willing.

ie.. He has to change their nature against their desire, will and/or choice.

He doesn't change their desires against their desires- he doesn't run it by them for them to reject the notion.

Just like the beautiful girl does not have a meeting with the man and ask if it would be ok with him if her beauty would make him fall in love with her.

She just comes by one day, he is stricken and given a new heart and he is willing to do things he would never have been willing to do had his heart not been overcome with her beauty.

There is no forcing here.

Thus you do not have God orchestrating events to cause them to be willing, you have God forcing some of them to obey and orchestrating others to continue on their way.

No more than a beautiful girl whose beauty causes the young man to fall in love with her FORCES him to go shopping. She does not put him in an arm-lock and ram him headfirst into Old Navy. He follows her willingly.

No matter how one desires to slice it, God has to force Himself on some. That is not grace that is something entirely different.

As I have shown it is not forcing- BUT you need to prove this supposition that FORCE eradicates grace. It does not.

If a lady is trapped in a burning building and will not leave without her dog- a building she set on fire because of her carelessness- and a fireman scoops her up against her will and rescues her, is it not grace?

Sure it is. Their is nothing about force that eradicates grace.

But as I said, God does not generally FORCE people to do things against their will.

However, IF this was how God intended His salvation to be, I would have NO issue with it, but as God has revealed scripture to me it does not speak to this and thus I can not agree with it.

I am glad to hear that. What Scripture do you have that says that God CANNOT force anyone to do things because it is against his nature?

 

[Allan]

When did God determine not to?

What Bible do you have to support this claim that it would be against his nature to do so?

Read my response Charles

It is NOT against their will if they are made willing. It is therefore not force (though God is perfectly free to force men to do whatever he wants).

We shall see

God does not compel them to go 'gainst their will he just makes them willing to go. - The Hornet Song

So they are willing to have God make them willing. Now you sound Arminian.

A crude illustration of this would be like love at first sight.

A man may not be willing to "go shopping". But he meets a girl and falls in love and she wants to go shopping- now he WANTS to because his heart has been changed.

She does not FORCE him. Her beauty changed his heart- he is perfectly willing.

VERY Poor illustration.
Love is choice.
The boy chose to love the girl and because of that He chose to go shopping.
Her beauty did not change his heart, his heart was already looking and once it found what it sought (ie. the girl) he loved her. He was not made willing, he was already willing.

He doesn't change their desires against their desires- he doesn't run it by them for them to reject the notion.

Great, then we are agreed that your view basically states - God forces some sinners to obey and others He leaves alone to continue not obeying.

Just like the beautiful girl does not have a meeting with the man and ask if it would be ok with him if her beauty would make him fall in love with her.

Again the illustration is flawed because it is based on a false presupposition, that being that love is something that just happens to a person and not a choice. Rom 13 speaks directly to the contrary and speaks of love being a choice.

There is no forcing here.

Thus far you have illustrated that there is ONLY forcing here.

No more than a beautiful girl whose beauty causes the young man to fall in love with her FORCES him to go shopping. She does not put him in an arm-lock and ram him headfirst into Old Navy. He follows her willingly

Again, he goes shopping with her because he choose to love that which he was already looking for. And when he saw it, he chose to love 'that girl'.

As I have shown it is not forcing- BUT you need to prove this supposition that FORCE eradicates grace. It does not.

No. You have showed an illustration with no basis in reality or biblical support for such an illustration.. though I do grant you stated it was not a good illustration. However Force does negate Grace because of faith. Salvation is of faith that it might be, by grace. Faith is choice just as love is, and a person who is forced to believe negates grace because it negates faith.

If a lady is trapped in a burning building and will not leave without her dog- a building she set on fire because of her carelessness- and a fireman scoops her up against her will and rescues her, is it not grace?

I SEEMS you are now saying that salvation is not by faith.
She didn't want to be saved but was any way. She did not choose but the choice was made for her and she was forced to be saved. Do you think she will thank that fireman and proclaim his goodness for what he did at that moment? Nope and nor would the sinner toward God.

I am glad to hear that. What Scripture do you have that says that God CANNOT force anyone to do things because it is against his nature?

Find me some that says God forces people do things they don't want to do.
Not that they had a change of heart BEFORE doing them.. but that in doing them they do not desire to do them but God is forcing them to.

 

[charles_creech78]

You misunderstand my meaning..

What I am referring to is - being forced to do something against their will.
IE.. God is making them and they don't want to.

The problem is that though the statement seems simple, it is not as simple as it sounds The meaning is determined by what you understand the term "make" to mean

Edited in - In other words, in scripture you have people who might not have wanted to do something initially, but God brought things to be that changed their mind and they were willing.. Note that they choose to do it. You do not have in scripture where a person does not want to do something and then God steps in and do it, even though they still do not want to.

One acknowledge only sovereignty and ignore responsibility.
The other sees both operating.

I do have scripture ! (Jonah)

 

[Allan]

I do have scripture ! (Jonah)

Jonah was not forced. God did not MAKE him go, as in, Jonah went unwillingly.. Jonah CHOOSE to go, willingly.

God could have at ANY point forced Jonah go straight there, or to not get on that ship, or to not live.. or.. but God used circumstances to touch his heart because though his mind did not like what he was asked to do.. his heart still yearned to obey God.

Therefore God did not MAKE/FORCE Jonah to go anywhere unwillingly.. Jonah choose to go and was willing.

It seems you didn't read my post.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jonah was not forced. God did not MAKE him go, as in, Jonah went unwillingly.. Jonah CHOOSE to go, willingly.

God could have at ANY point forced Jonah go straight there, or to not get on that ship, or to not live.. or.. but God used circumstances to touch his heart because though his mind did not like what he was asked to do.. his heart still yearned to obey God.

Therefore God did not MAKE/FORCE Jonah to go anywhere unwillingly.. Jonah choose to go and was willing.

It seems you didn't read my post.

Charles. Have you ever read in Romans 2:4 how that Gods' goodness leads (leadeth) us to repentance, and discovered what that word means, leadeth, and how it is the same as those dragged before counsels, when you look how it is used elsewhere? It means to drive.

How dare God goad or drive us to repent?

I am glad He did this with my life.

 

[webdog]

After reading the free willer/closet arminians comments and theological slant concerning God here on BB it simply amazes me how they limit God to a genie who is at their beckon call.

I seriously had no clue to where their logic leads. Many on here have shown me exactly where: to absurdity.

I see the extreme of this in Kenneth Copeland theology, how he says God cannot do a thing in this world unless we invite Him to.

Unbelievable. I see his same error in the words of many on here who limit Gods abilities by their own "logic."

In a matter of weeks you went from civil, not knowing even your own doctrine that well to an expert in not only your own theology, but somehow ours too...while taking on the abrasive, rude, arrogant side to reformed theology.

Bravo!

 

[Allan]

Charles. Have you ever read in Romans 2:4 how that Gods' goodness leads (leadeth) us to repentance, and discovered what that word means, leadeth, and how it is the same as those dragged before counsels, when you look how it is used elsewhere? It means to drive.

How dare God goad or drive us to repent?

I am glad He did this with my life.

You DO realize that that word has VARIOUS meanings and the one you superimpose as the definition IS NOT the correct one.

From A. Robertson a Reformed and exceptional Greek Scholar on Rom 2:4

Rom 2:4
Or despiseth thou? (ē kataphroneiṡ). Another alternative, that of scorn of God’s kindness (chrēstotētos, 2Co_6:6) and forbearance (anochēs, old word, holding back from anechō, only here in N.T.) and longsuffering (makrothumias, late word for which see 2Co_6:4, 2Co_6:6). Kataphroneō is old verb to think down on (kata, phroneō) as in Mat_6:24; 1Co_11:22. This upstart Jew actually thinks down on God. And then “the riches” (tou ploutou) of all that comes from God.

Leadeth thee to repentance (eis metanoian se agei). The very kindness (to chrēston, the kindly quality) of God is trying to lead (conative present agei) thee to a right-about face, a change of mind and attitude (metanoian) instead of a complacent self-satisfaction and pride of race and privilege.

Vincent Word Studies (don't know if he is reformed)

Rom 2:4 -[ on 'leadeth']
Leadeth (ἄγει)
The continuous present: is leading all the while thou art despising.

Note their heart is not yet changed but it is being lead/guided toward that direction.

Reformer John Gill states rather uniquely but not very differently

not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance. This is to be understood not of a spiritual and evangelical repentance, which is a free grace gift, and which none but the Spirit of God can lead, or bring persons to; but of a natural and legal repentance, which lies in an external sorrow for sin, and in an outward cessation from it, and reformation of life and manners, which the goodness of God to the Jews should have led them to; who had a large share of the good things of life, a land flowing with milk and honey, and many outward privileges which other nations had not, as the giving of the law, the covenant and promises, the word and ordinances; and repentance here chiefly designs, as it may respect the Gentiles, a change of mind and practice in them relating to idolatry and superstition Now the providential goodness of God has a tendency to lead persons to repentance on this account; but of this end of divine goodness the Gentiles were ignorant; nor was this end answered thereby; which shows the wretched depravity of human nature; see Act_14:15.

Thus it is not a DRAGGING.. but a guiding type of leading


There are many other scholars I can pull from and word studies I can use, but the fact remains.. the word used does NOT hold the definition you are desiring to give it.

 

[preacher4truth]

You DO realize that that word has VARIOUS meanings and the one you superimpose as the definition IS NOT the correct one.

From A. Robertson a Reformed and exceptional Greek Scholar on Rom 2:4


Vincent Word Studies (don't know if he is reformed)

Note their heart is not yet changed but it is being lead/guided toward that direction.

Reformer John Gill states rather uniquely but not very differently

Thus it is not a DRAGGING.. but a guiding type of leading


There are many other scholars I can pull from and word studies I can use, but the fact remains.. the word used does NOT hold the definition you are desiring to give it.

Brother, not one of your quotes supports what you are trying to say. One of its VARIOUS meanings means to drive.

Wow, I wonder why you would ask if I know it has various meanings?

EVEN when YOU CAPITALIZE words HERE and THERE to TRY and make an EMPHATIC statement it DOESN'T prove YOU to be CORRECT. :thumbsup:

It reminds me of the other feller that colors everything and uses font size &c to prove his point and I just overlook the entire post. (Sorry, I didn't want to take the time and color my words here to help illustrate that. Hopefully you get the point)

Have you actually read those quotes? LOL. They prove nothing you say. Nothing!

Again, nothing you've said supports your conclusions, just in case you've missed it.

Not one quote. :wavey:

Paul in Acts 9.

I rest my case.

Oh, also, look up this word used in other passages. It is used the way I've said.

- Blessings

 

[Amy.G]

Charles. Have you ever read in Romans 2:4 how that Gods' goodness leads (leadeth) us to repentance, and discovered what that word means, leadeth, and how it is the same as those dragged before counsels, when you look how it is used elsewhere? It means to drive.

How dare God goad or drive us to repent?

I am glad He did this with my life.

Why is it that I could find no translation that uses the word "drag" in Romans 2:4? Maybe all those hundreds of translators weren't as smart as you?

I have found that people like re-translate biblical words to suit their own pet doctrines. There was a couple of fellows on the bb a few years ago (now banned) that claimed that forever didn't really mean forever.

Your demeanor has changed since you joined the board. Has Luke taken over your body? Like invasion of the body snatchers? :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

Why is it that I could find no translation that uses the word "drag" in Romans 2:4? Maybe all those hundreds of translators weren't as smart as you?

I have found that people like re-translate biblical words to suit their own pet doctrines. There was a couple of fellows on the bb a few years ago (now banned) that claimed that forever didn't really mean forever.

Your demeanor has changed since you joined the board. Has Luke taken over your body? Like invasion of the body snatchers? :laugh:

What is the Greek word?

How is that same word used in other passages?

What is its definition?

Do you know the answers to this?

Uh, no. You don't.

Also, I was vehemently against Calvinism when I found how this word was used elsewhere in the NT. :wavey:

Go check it out. I've actually done so, maybe you should too, instead of off the cuff commentating on this through your free will lens. Seriously, how is it used in other passages. Go see, and you will be awakened. Obviously you haven't checked it our, or you would know how it was used as I have described.


Also, if I said drag, I stand corrected, as it means to drive. It also means to bring. It also means to induce.

Also, how do two fellows claiming forever doesn't mean forever, have a thing to do with what I said?

Wow. Thanks.